Hansard, 1957-12-16

The following Questions stood in the name of Mr Lim Cher Kheng:-

1.To ask the Chief Secretary whether he is aware of the possibility of persons holding temporary identity cards being registered as citizens of Singapore; to state whether a person, after having been registered as a citizen of Singapore, is entitled to be issued with a British passport; and whether he will make a statement.

2.To ask the Minister for Local Government, Lands and Housing whether he will consider amending the Rent Control Ordinance with a view to compelling private landlords to grant ex-gratia compensation to, or provide alternative accommodation for, evicted tenants of their houses or land.

Mr Lim Cher Kheng. There being no response

Mr John Ede.

asked the Minister for Commerce and Industry by what method he proposes to let out for development as prawn ponds the area in the Pandan Forest Reserve other than the 200 acres to be reserved for development on a co-operative basis.

Sir, I have not had sufficient time to decide on the method yet.

Is it true that there have already been many applications for development of this area?

That is so, Sir.

Is the Minister considering the letting out of the land for development by such applications or is he having the whole question considered afresh?

As I said, Sir, I have not had much time to give the matter thought.

asked the Minister for Commerce and Industry whether he is aware that the War Department is banning pig-keeping by farmers who are tenants on War Department Land in a large area of Ulu Pandan and Pasir Panjang from 31st January, 1958; and what action he proposes to take to ensure that the livelihood of these farmers is safeguarded.

Yes, Sir, I am aware that this has been proposed in certain areas. Discussions have been held in my Ministry with the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Local Government, Lands and Housing and the latter has now approached the appropriate military authority with suggestions to protect the interests of both parties, namely, the Services as well as the smallholders. It is hoped that these suggestions will prove acceptable.

Mr Speaker, Sir, is the Minister aware that some 150 families with a production of something like 10,000 pigs per year are involved and that there will be considerable hardship not only to the families but also in our markets if something stringent is not done?

Sir, the Ministry is doing all it can.

Will the Minister undertake as a first step to see that any action due to be taken by the War Department on or after 1st February, 1958, will be postponed?

The military authorities have been approached, Sir, on these lines.

I thank the Minister for the action he intends taking now and would inform him that I shall put down a further Question at the January sitting for the Minister to report the progress.

There is no question of "intends taking". Sir, action is already being taken and the hon. Member is welcome to ask further Questions.

asked the Minister for Commerce and Industry whether he will, have arrangements made for the Department of Fisheries to publish its data on prawn biology for general information and, in particular, for prawn-pond operators and interested scientists.

Sir, this has already been done. The Chief Fisheries Officer. Singapore, has, in simple terms, outlined the salient features of the biology of the Peneid prawns, which would interest the ordinary man, in an article based on research reports by American biologists published in the Rural News Vol. 1, No. 11, dated 9th August, 1956. This article was written for the information of prawn-pond operators and others who may be interested.

Mr Speaker, Sir, will the Minister see that data of interest to expert biologists concerned is also made available?

Sir, scientists and others who wish for further data are referred to the publications in the American Biological Bulletin, Vol. 196, No. 2 of 1949, giving the result of the work on the biology of the Peneid prawns carried out by Drs. W. N. Anderson, J. E. King and M. J. Linder.

Is the Minister aware that those are the findings of American biologists in a different part of the world? Will he have the data gathered by the Department of Fisheries in Singapore published for the interest of scientists?

Sir, publishing data for the information of scientists is not the function of the Ministry of Commerce and Industry. That could properly be taken up by the University of Malaya and other seats of academic research and information.

Mr Speaker, Sir, does that mean in fact that the Department of Fisheries has no scientific data at its disposal? Further, is the Minister aware that as the data gathered by the Department of Fisheries clearly differs from that of other expert biologists, it is in the public interest that it be published?

Sir, the data that the Department of Fisheries has is from the results of investigations made by these three American doctors I quoted. Anyone who is interested in getting detailed information on the data could refer to the American Biological Bulletin which I have already quoted in my earlier answer.

If the Minister is unwilling to have data gathered by the Department of Fisheries, Singapore, published, does it not only go to show that there is considerable doubt as to the reasonableness of alienating the Pandan Nature Reserve?

We are embarking on a debate.

Sir, may I answer it?

Yes, if the Minister wishes to answer it.

As I have said, Sir, the Fisheries Department has made no research of its own. That was the job of the fisheries research station which had the "Manihine" here but we do not know whether research has been made on these lines. The Fisheries Department has data gathered from the research carried out by those American biologists and I am not aware of any other scientific study made by any other group.

Is the Minister not aware that the answer is extremely unsatisfactory? We give notice that we shall raise this matter again.

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply: [1st Allotted Day].

10.10 a.m.

Head 1 -

Mr Speaker, Sir, I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 1 be reduced by $1,800 in respect of item (20) of subhead 1 therein. Sir, this we hope is the last Budget in which the item "Governor" will appear on the Estimates. Next year, the title will be changed to Yang di-Pertuan Negara. The expenses may not decrease but what we do not wish to have appearing next year are allowances for persons who act in place of the Yang di-Pertuan Negara if he should go away for a holiday. Sir, before I launch into a tirade at the officers who are going to collect this $1,800, I would like to know from the Hon. the Financial Secretary how the computation is made.

In accordance with the practice in other colonies, Mr Speaker, Sir, it has been the practice since 1953 to pay the Officer Administering the Government in the absence of His Excellency the Governor 95 per cent of the basic emoluments of the Governor.

95 per cent of the basic emoluments of the Governor, not the difference between the substantive holder's pay and the pay of the Governor?

Perhaps I might explain it in another way, Sir. We pay the Officer Administering the Government an allowance to bring his total emoluments up to 95 per cent of the Governor's basic salary.

Could we know who is sharing this $1,800?

Sir, I cannot look into the future.

As far as we can see, Sir, the only people who act as Governors or Officers Administering the Government are the colonial officials. It seems to me that this is a nice little racket ever since 1953 when they were running this Chamber. They create tradition. They never did it before. In 1953, they thought it was a good idea: "Give ourselves more money." Why not? This money does not belong to them; it belongs to the people of Singapore!

On a point of information, Sir. Prior to 1953, under the Governor's Ordinance - I think that is the title of the Ordinance - it was the practice to pay the Officer Administering the Government half the Governor's basic salary and half his own salary. In 1953, we brought our practice into line with that of the rest of the colonial dependencies and paid the Officer Administering the Government a sum sufficient to bring his total emoluments up to 95 per cent of the Governor's basic salary.

And while the Governor is on holiday, at the same time I presume he draws his full Governor's pay?

I think the hon. Member should now make his speech.

Yes. What we would like to say is this. If we want to give everybody money all round, why not do it also for the elected Ministers? The Chief Minister goes off on holiday; the Deputy Chief Minister gets an acting pay. The Deputy Chief Minister becomes the Acting Chief Minister, his Assistant Minister gets his acting pay and so we can play this merry-go-round, and at any one time somebody will get extra money. If we are against this in principle, this item will disappear in next year's Estimates which I think will not be prepared by the present Government.

I am most distressed to learn that the Member for Tanjong Pagar does not adhere to the principle that a man should be paid for what he does.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. Question proposed, "That the sum of $379,570 for Head 1 stand part of the Schedule." 10.15 a.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of our constitutional development, this item will be the last one appearing on our Budget. I hope that this item which is going to be spent until September 1958 will be spent up to that time and no further. The Government has promised that there shall be general elections in August or September 1958 and this item, I should say, should be budgeted right up to September 1958 and thereafter it should come under a new head probably under the heading "Head of State" and I fail to see why the Government has not put this into the Estimates. Is it the intention of the Government that this should be continued even after the general elections in 1958?

Mr Speaker, Sir, it is indeed lamentable for a Member of the All-Party Delegation which went to London and negotiated for a new agreement not to know what he has negotiated for. What has been decided and agreed between the United Kingdom Government and the Singapore delegation is that when the new constitution comes into force there shall be a period of six months wherein the present Governor will serve as the Yang di-Pertuan Negara.

He can then come under that head.

Sir, I think we should not be always looking at the gloomy side of life. This is one of the brighter moments. Sometime next year or sometime in 1959, one lucky Malayan-born person will sit in Government House. I was intrigued the other day to hear the new Governor say that he was going to hand over Government House presumably with all the crockery, the forks and spoons, the Royal crest, the pictures, the air-conditioning machines, the nice lawns and all the paraphernalia and patina that make for the pomp and glory of a colonial government. There must be a lot of heart-searching as the elections draw nearer as to who is going to be the lucky person. He will be a lucky person indeed because he will inherit not only the big mansion with all the spacious grounds but also two butlers, two assistant butlers, twenty domestic staff, two cooks (one graded lower than the other) and five chauffeurs (two undoubtedly experienced ones getting a salary of $154-6A-184 and three less experienced ones getting $114-4A-138). That gives a measure of the necessary pomp that must surround such an important person. As we take over the bureaucratic machine, we get these few choice places open. In the Federation it has been quite an entertaining spectacle to see people move up to high office to embassies all over the world leaving very unpleasant contests to be fought out. In Singapore, it is generally agreed that whoever wants to become the Yang di-Pertuan Negara must not be involved in politics. If he has been involved in politics, then he should be somebody who has left his political past in some corner and has made friends all round ever since. What is more he must - this is the more serious side - be of the calibre that will be able to take over not only the dignity of the office because the dignity will remain, but the greater responsibility which it entails in dealing diplomatically and tactfully with the elected Members from whom he must invite leaders to form a government. In fact, when we were in London negotiating this Yang di-Pertuan Negara, I could not help but think that perhaps we owe a tribute to the ex-Chief Minister for this scheme. This is his brainchild and he deserves full marks for it. We the PAP, were not particularly concerned whether we had a Yang di-Pertuan Negara or a Governor-General or a Governor. But other people were very particular about forms particularly when they were out for seats in the United Nations. It was important that the whole set-up of a sovereign nation should be carefully stated including the head of a state. When we settled it this year, I calculated the number of possible applicants for this job. Sir, he cannot be a political because then he will be a menace. He will choose the wrong persons to form a government. He will choose the wrong Party and there will be political instability. He cannot be too deeply involved in politics at present. So that writes off all the present Members of this Assembly and those who are storming on election platforms. I was left eventually with a short list of five. If the five gentlemen - and I think there are only five who might discharge this duty with some distinction and with some dignity - know what is in store for the Yang di-Pertuan Negara under the new constitution, when he takes over Government House with all the crockery and all the paraphernalia of that august domain, he will remember that his is probably the most ticklish job ever given to any functionary head of state in South-East Asia. I do not know what other political Parties have in mind for this job but, as far as we are concerned, that man requires a great deal of courage, deep political understanding of the South-East Asian situation and the ability to ride a crisis with firmness.

What about you?

Never!

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $379,570 for Head 1 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 2 -

Mr Speaker, Sir, I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 2 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead I therein. Sir, recently the courts have been really fully occupied right from the High Court clown to the criminal courts and there have been many cases where people want to get justice very quickly, and could not have their cases heard at an early date. We have heard complaints from the public that many cases have been postponed to dates many months ahead. There have been leading articles in the papers lamenting this point. I think the Government should remedy this so that all cases could be heard in the shortest period possible. On another point, Sir, I notice that most of the courts in Singapore are situated right in the centre of the town. There are many summonses or many cases involving people living in rural areas and it is sometimes very difficult for the rural people to know to which court they must go. I have had many cases of people coming to me to ask me where a particular court is situated; whether they should go to the court right in front of the Central Police Station or to the one next to the City Council. In one or two cases, I think they failed to appear before the courts not because they dared to fail to appear but because they were just lost. Next year, in the Development Estimates, many district offices are coming up. At present too, there are many community centres situated all over Singapore. I would say that it would be better to bring the courts to the rural areas rather than bring the rural people to the city courts. I can give an instance, Sir, where this should prove practicable. On a day when a hundred hawkers are summoned to appear before a court, I think that in such cases, it would be better if the court is situated in a centre that is nearest to their place of operation rather than to get each and every one of them to come right into town for their hearings. On the subject of justice, I would like to bring to the attention of this House the difficulty to the man in the street. Justice would be available to the rich because they are in the position to pay. For those who are poor with an income of less than $300 or with a total possession of less than $300. Government has started a free legal aid system. But there is a large number of people who cannot sometimes seek justice. I mention a few instances of people who are knocked down by cars through negligence and because they are in no position to engage a lawyer, many of them have abandoned their claims against insurance companies. These are the people who suffer because they have not enough money to seek justice and yet they are rich enough to be excluded from this free legal aid. I wonder if Government is having any scheme to assist this large section of the people who I think should get justice. 10.30 a.m.

I should inform the hon. Member that the Government has under consideration at the moment the question of the decentralisation of Government courts.

Sir, one of the most important branches of the bureaucracy of a democratic system is an independent and efficient judiciary. We decided in London this year that the independence of our local judiciary shall be guaranteed and that no Puisne Judge of the High Court or Chief Justice who has been appointed by the Yang di-Pertuan Negara on the advice of the Prime Minister, after consultation with the Chief Justice and the Council of Ministers, can be removed unless the matter has been referred to the Privy Council, and the Privy Council has recommended that they should be removed. But what gravely disturbs me is not so much the lack of independence of the judiciary, but the fact that, because of the education policy in the past, there is now a dearth of experienced and competent lawyers to take over the lower rungs of the judiciary. It is a fact which all practising lawyers know, that the stronger a judge the less is the influence on any particular decision of counsel appearing before him. One of the most unhappy features that a lawyer would like to avoid seeing in our courts is where a young and inexperienced magistrate is buffeted between two experienced counsels, and the fear of being taken up on appeal by one or other of the experienced counsels and of being torn to pieces in the appellate court is more often than not a reason for the inexperienced magistrate reaching a decision on one side or the other. Sir, we welcome the fact that the Government has recruited people from the profession straight into puisne judgeships. It is the only way to do it, in view not only of the shortage of senior legal officers but also because it is a desirable practice in itself. The difficulty of course is the question of emoluments. The Bar Committee has written to the Colonial Office, I think, to have the salaries of judges revised. Now, Sir, I am not in favour of piecemeal adjustment because the whole of the hierarchy will be upset if one tampers with any part of the top hierarchy but it is a problem which we must face. If you want to get able, experienced lawyers to give up their practice and take over a judgeship, then you must be prepared to offer them something more than just the pomp, dignity and importance of that office. How much that something must be has got to be taken in relation to the pay of the Yang di-Pertuan Negara and the Speaker of the Assembly. There was an order of protocol drawn up by the Colonial Office some time this year. I do not know if what transpired is still confidential but anyway the Colonial Office was extremely anxious to maintain the order of precedence. First, they conceded that there shall be the Yang di-Pertuan Negara who will not be a Colonial Office man. But they insisted that immediately after the Speaker, the British Commissioner or the High Commissioner or whatever he will be called shall march first in procession to indicate the importance of his office, that he holds special reserve powers and powers of life and death over the constitution, etc., etc. I think the Chief Justice came in immediately after the Speaker or the Speaker came in after the Chief Justice - I was not sure which way it was. All these things must be taken into account when we fix the salaries of judges. You cannot have one person trooping out in front drawing $2,150 and the person trooping behind drawing $3,575 otherwise the sense of propriety will be greatly disrupted. What I would like to say on the judiciary is this: it was a right decision we made in London, that the judiciary could be Malayanised. It was a right decision that the Government took in recruiting from the profession, but adjustments will have to be made as to the terms and conditions for those who are recruited from the profession. What we are going to do about this shortage of trained men to take over the lower rungs of the judiciary is a matter which I think must receive very serious consideration if the next Minister for Justice is not to be saddled with a lot of incompetent magistrates whose judgments go constantly up for appeal. It is not altogether a matter which can be solved just by saying so. The number of trained men - as I have said, and I keep on condemning the colonial system because I think they are responsible for it - is so few. And the reason is that when the British Colonial Office discovered that lawyers naturally turned to politics they stopped scholarships for lawyers and they gave scholarships for engineers, doctors, dentists, and anything you like under the sun, provided that you did not interfere with the political system. The result was that only the useless rich man's son became a lawyer. As you well know, Mr Speaker, Sir, it is one of the easiest professional examinations to pass in England. The result is that we are saddled with them now. The University of Malaya can only remedy this situation in about six or seven years when the first recruits will be forthcoming. Between then and now we have to see that the standard of our magistracy is maintained somehow or the other while the younger men are gaining experience. I am sure that the situation is even more serious in the Attorney-General's Chamber. I shudder to think what would have happened but for the fact that there were a few lawyers trained in the years before the war who are now able to assume the higher appointments in the departments - both legal and judiciary. We hope that this problem is solved if only on a temporary basis until a long-term solution offers itself.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I agree that the remuneration of professional men who are required to fill the public services should be revised. One must compare to a certain extent with the remuneration of what a professional man would obtain if he were not in the Government service otherwise we shall only get the second-rate men who will fill the very responsible posts required for the smooth running of Government. I am afraid that in this country we still do not have people who are prepared to make a sacrifice in their salaries to maintain the prestige and the self-sacrifice required in public work and to remedy that we should revise the scale of fees in order to attract really good professional men. For instance, doctors in the medical service

Order. Does the hon. Member realise that we are on Head 2- Judicial, and that he should concentrate on the judiciary for the time being? His remarks, I think, would be more appropriate when we come to the Head-Chief Secretary.

Yes. So I think that one of the best ways to shorten the length of time required for the hearing of cases could be achieved by having "strong" men on the Bench who will stand up to the eloquence of lawyers who take up hours in court and thereby save time. I think that is one of the reasons why we cannot attract experienced young men to the Bench. 10.45 a.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we in the legal service of the colony will be the first to welcome any move to strengthen our ranks but I cannot accept the implication in the Member for Tanjong Pagar's reference to "incompetence" in connection with the present magistracy. The present magistrates are in my opinion striving extremely hard and cannot in honesty be described as incompetent.

On a point of clarification, Sir. I was very careful in my remarks not to describe them as incompetent. What I sought to convey was that they lacked the experience. We know that they are striving very hard but it must be admitted that some of them lack the experience having just been called to the Bar, or having been called to the Bar one or two years ago.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am very glad that the Member for Tanjong Pagar has made the position clear. I freely admit that the amount of experience enjoyed by the magistrates is not considerable but now that the suggestion of "incompetence" - I am sure that the word was used - has been so withdrawn, I say no more about that. The question of salaries is a matter that is under consideration and the factors that the hon. Member has mentioned such as the emoluments of the head of state and of your own office are matters that will be considered. There are of course others: age of retirement, pensions, medical attention and all the hundred and one things that go with conditions of service and prospects within the service and we must consider also - I think this is quite important - the relative levels of emoluments in other territories. It is not possible to review and revise the emoluments of any one particular service without taking into consideration all other Government services but I can assure the House that this is a matter which is now receiving attention and will continue receiving attention until a satisfactory solution has been reached.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to recollect the statement made by the Hon. the Minister for Commerce and Industry last week regarding the industrialisation of this country. He stated that our local capitalists prefer to invest their money for a quick return in rubber and tin rather than to invest it on a long-term basis. Now coming to the subject of judiciary, the position is somewhat peculiar alike. We heard both sides of this House say that we should obtain more experienced men to fill the senior posts in the judiciary but one cannot deny the fact that amongst the private lawyers there are many brilliant legal professional men. Why they do not come forward to join this most important service is because they are attracted by the bigger income that they can get from their private practice. Therefore, I wish to remind this House, especially the Government, to think of a way to control the professional legal charges which are sometimes fantastically high and to encourage such people to join the judiciary instead of making a quick million dollars from their legal practice.

Sir, in view of what the Hon. the Attorney-General said, I think that I should elaborate further on what I mean by the weaknesses of our young magistracy. There are a few exceptions which I myself have encountered. They are young people having just been called to the Bar, who have learned very quickly how to reach the issues in a particular case and how at the same time to maintain the dignity of the magistrate in his court and not to descend to the dust and heat of the arena. But I give this by way of illustration. I had to appear before a young magistrate, conscientious but young, and we spent the whole afternoon on all kinds of side issues because he was so careful in not wanting to make a mistake that he investigated every possible alternative up every possible alley. We came to the right conclusion in the end but after having wasted the whole afternoon. Now, Sir, there are two ways to solve this. One, say, "All right, it must be so until they gather experience of what to do." The other is to find some interim solution whereby experienced men are put in almost every other court to see that the cases where difficulties are likely to arise are put before the experienced magistrates. It is at the moment done purely on the basis of seniority. Certain criminal district courts have an order or precedence according to seniority in the service and except in very exceptional cases, it is really the luck of the draw before which magistrate a case appears. My suggestion for an interim solution has two aspects. One, somehow get your more experienced men to staff every other court if they cannot staff every court. Two, make sure that, in the fixing of the cases where difficulties are likely to arise either in involved facts or in involved laws, a case is put before an experienced man. Otherwise time is wasted not only in the trial before the magistrate but in the chances of the appeal before an appellate tribunal. This is a problem of which one could take a fatalistic view and say, "Well, anyway, leave it till five or ten years and the magistrates will acquire experience and the young Counsels in the Attorney-General's Chambers have been knocking about enough in the High Court to gather experience to become good judges." But, in the meantime, a lot of dissatisfaction is created both with those who are being prosecuted and with those who are litigating in the courts and with members of the profession. There are certain judges before whom counsels shudder to have a case. That is a fact because we know that a matter which would take one hour before an ordinarily competent man would take a whole day if it goes before certain persons. It is an open secret in the profession and the Attorney-General and his officers must be fully aware of it. Well, such people should not be put on the Bench. We had one case-I think the Attorney-General is fully aware of the particular case-where he did not consider the man competent or did not consider the man suitable and he was pushed out to be a magistrate or a civil district judge. The result was that every case that appears before him takes three times as long as it normally would whether or not it reaches the correct conclusion in the end, and this is a matter of great importance. The Attorney-General and his officers cannot be unaware of what is open gossip at the Bar.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I have not sought to interrupt the hon. Member but I feel that some of the things be has said have come near to contravening, if not the letter, the spirit of our Standing Orders and, as I will not run into the danger of following him, I do not propose to reply in any detail but I would say this that those responsible for the selection of officers of the legal, service and those responsible for the administration of our courts are fully aware of the difficulties that confront them and are doing their best to overcome those difficulties. We cannot have a magistracy in which litigants can pick and choose their judges and while at first sight this avoidance of the "luck of the draw" suggestion may be attractive, it is one that will not work. We cannot have one magistrate fit to deal with one type of case and one magistrate fit to deal with another. To allow that is to admit defeat and we are not defeated. I am quite satisfied that those responsible are taking the proper steps to improve the situation. Now perhaps I might refer to a matter mentioned by the Member for Changi. Were he in the profession, I think he would have a very different view of the earnings of the average member of the local Bar.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. The sum of $1,865,510 for Head 2 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 3 -

Mr Speaker, Sir I move the amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper, That the sum to be allotted for Head 3 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of sub-head 1 therein. Mr Speaker, Sir, I selected this particular subhead not necessarily meaning that the particular item should be reduced by $10 but just to initiate a debate on the whole subhead. I hope I am in order?

Yes, please proceed. 11.00 a.m.

Sir, the total expenditure of the Council of Ministers is $161,970. The Council has been set up to look after the affairs of the Colony and the Ministers on it are expected to remain on duty most of the time, and to incur as small expenditure as possible for the benefit of the taxpayers. But look at subhead 2, item (6), Telegrams, on page 38 of the Estimates. This year, telegrams cost $48,000. Detailed estimated expenditure for 1958 under subhead 2 is not given, but the total is put down as $63,350, out of a total. of $161,970 for the head. Is it expected that $48,000 will again be spent on telegrams? Telegrams are needed mostly only when Ministers are away. No explanation has been given but I think the cost of telegrams is included in the subhead total. We have seen that not one, two, or three, but four Ministers are away from the Colony at one time. How is Government run in this way? Of course we know that there are the Permanent Secretaries but is it wise that four Ministers should be away at a time? Their duty is to run the administration. When they are away, the heaviest expenditure must be on telegrams, to give or take instructions or advice. Sir, I would like to see Ministers travel less and so less money is spent.

I am afraid I cannot agree with my friend the hon. Member for Telok Ayer that the provision for the Council of Ministers is extravagant. There is a high-powered secretariat dealing with a very great volume of business and all the provision for staff is required. If it were not provided, I am afraid the secretariat would not function as successfully and efficiently as it does. On the question of recurrent expenditure, I think the Member will see, if he examines the Estimates, that the amount provided for services other than air mail charges and telegrams is very small indeed. I think the provision for air mail charges for diplomatic bags explains itself. As regards telegrams, I think the Member believes the provision is only in connection with telegrams sent to the Ministers while they are actually away from the Colony. That is not the case, Sir. A certain amount of expenditure is incurred on telegrams to Ministers when they attend overseas conferences such as on constitutional matters, but the vast bulk of the expenditure under this item is on ordinary routine telegrams between this territory and the Colonial Office and other governments. The figure has been very carefully calculated. This vote has been the subject of applications for supplementary votes in the past and the provision this year is based on past expenditure incurred. I hope that the hon. Member will accept my explanation and assurance that there is no extravagance or needless expenditure under this particular head.

Sir, a wrong impression may be created by what the hon. Member for Telok Ayer has said, that four Ministers were away from the Colony at one time. That has happened only twice in the term of office of the Labour Front Government. One was when the ex-Chief Minister went to London for constitutional talks, when two Ministers were left behind; the second occasion was when the present Chief Minister also went to London, early this year, for constitutional talks and successfully brought back agreement for a new status for Singapore.

Sir, I am rather surprised that the Chief Minister has not replied to me on this subject, as he should have. There is no defence or excuse whatsoever. Once, twice many Ministers were away. Why had a fourth Minister to go to Japan at a particular period in the absence of three others from the Colony? Is there any explanation?

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am rather tired of this point raised by the hon. Member for Telok Ayer. At the time the delegates went to London for the second constitutional talks, it was anticipated that they would be back within a certain period. Provision had been made for me to visit Japan. Government had accepted an invitation from the Japanese Government. which would pay for my expenses in Japan, to visit them partly on a goodwill mission and partly to visit institutions in the company of my Medical Superintendent of the General Hospital. As it happened, however, the constitutional talks in London were delayed. I think it was only for four days that my absence overlapped the return of the delegates from London.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am sorry to see that after a second visit to Tokyo, the Minister for Health could still be very tired.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. The sum of $161,970 for Head 3 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 4 - The sum of $453,810 for Head 4 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 5 - Question proposed, "That the sum of $268,190 for Head 5 stand part of the Schedule."

Mr Speaker, Sir, we have created an independent Public Service Commission to see that the best men get the jobs. So far as I am aware, the P.S.C. has been doing its job but I want to draw its attention to a few points, especially to the fact that it is an entirely independent commission, independent of Government interference. I know that in certain cases where Government likes to fill a post, there have been manoeuvres. It will specifically require a certain qualification for a post, let us say requirement (a). If an applicant holds not only the qualification specified in (a), but has further qualifications (b) and (c), Government may be in the habit of saying, "No, we just require one qualification", that is that specified in (a). I would say that that would be possible in, say, a simple, hypothetical case of the medical services. We will say one person may be specifically qualified in health while another has a degree which only covers health, yet Government may say, "We want the second qualification", and that is put down as the requirement. Furthermore, Government always has another idea - of putting a person on to acting capacities and then claiming that he has the necessary experience. No doubt the Public Service Commission is an independent body but it has to consider suggestions and recommendations from all sides. I would say that it should not be unduly influenced when it suspects that jobs are being tailored for those whom Government wants to put in. I would ask that the Commission exercise great care, and in cases of acting posts, exercise double care.

Sir, on a point of elucidation; the hon. Member talked about being "qualified in health". Does he mean that the person is physically or mentally strong? What does he mean by "qualified in health"?

Mr Speaker, Sir, that a Minister should ask such a question really astounds me. We are not talking about health in the sense of the health of the Hon. the Minister for Health, for example. The Hon. The Minister for Commerce and Industry should understand that when we talk about health in the matter of qualifications, we refer to degree qualifications. I am really surprised that he should express it in this manner, showing his utter ignorance.

Mr Speaker, I am glad that the hon. Member for Serangoon has duly praised the Public Service Commission. I am sure we all appreciate the very good work and impartiality of the P.S.C., and its independence. The Member for Serangoon, however, was trying to imply that Government tries to interfere with the P.S.C., to tailor jobs, and to advertise jobs to suit Government's intentions - in fact trying to meddle with the work of the P.S.C. I can assure the Member that that is furthest from Government's intention.

Sir, the allegation that when advertisements are inserted inviting applications for appointment to the civil service the Government tailors the qualifications to suit its own convenience, is totally baseless. Advertisements as well as circulars inviting applications for posts in the civil service are first of all cleared with the Public Service Commission before action can be taken.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $268,190 for Head 5 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 6 - The sum of $600,420 for Head 6 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. 11.15 a.m. Head 7 -

Mr Speaker, Sir, I move the amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper, That the sum to be allotted for Head 7 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 1 therein. Sir, again in order to initiate a debate, I move a reduction in the amount of the first item, but really I only mean to comment as a friend; not to throw a brickbat but to give advice. Members of the Assembly are elected by vote. Voters thereby place confidence in their elected Members, that they will safeguard their interests properly in every respect. It is an honour to be a Minister, and to be Chief Minister is a very high honour. Ministers have to live up to it. In other countries, salaries of Ministers are nominal. I am not here discussing the scale of salaries which has been already fixed, though what happens in future I do not know. Sir, in this case also, I must draw the attention of my good friend, the Hon. the Chief Minister, to the necessity to restrict travel and so on. It may be very necessary sometimes for him to travel, but there are times when such travel can be left to the officials who carry out the policy of Ministers. Really the officials require experience and they are there more or less permanently while Ministers change every one, two, three or four years according to political conditions. Here I might very respectfully and, if I may say so, as a friend, draw the Chief Minister's attention to his journeys to Geneva or New Delhi, journeys which could have been made by heads of department. That would have saved expenditure and also given experience of conferences to not one, but two officials if possible. The other matter I would refer to is entertainment expenses, subhead 4, page 48. In a democratic government, the Chief Minister is the chief person, I do admit, to entertain or show respect to heads of various other countries passing through. We are a very small colony compared with the big states surrounding us; so although we have got to show respect to visitors, we should do that in a very economical way. Singapore is mainly a stopping place en route to Kuala Lumpur for airplane services or steamers, and visitors passing through Singapore do like to pay courtesy calls on the Chief Minister although their destination is really the Federation, which is an independent country. We can therefore be economical - instead of dinner, we can invite visitors to tea. That will save expense. Or give a lunch. Only when very necessary or essential do we give a dinner, not otherwise. There is also another head of the state, the Governor. He should share his part of entertaining, so expenses can then be less and we can thus save some money for the sake of the colony taxpayers. I am just passing these remarks in a friendly way.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am indeed very touched by the friendly attitude of my old friend, the hon. Member for Telok Ayer. He has tendered one or two advices to me and I feel I have to comment on them, say, on the meetings of the International Labour Organisation in Geneva and New Delhi. He said that, in his view, it was not necessary for the Minister to attend such conferences and that they should be attended by permanent officials. These two conferences were attended by Ministers of the participating countries to speak on the policies of their governments, and I attended as the relevant Minister representing Singapore. The Member then touched on the entertainment expenses vote of $10,000. Sir, I can assure him that I have been most economical in my expenditure under this item. I do not throw parties, to all visiting dignitaries. In most cases when I take some of them around, the expenses come out of my own pocket. It is only when I have a party to which I invite members of the Government and the Opposition that the cost is charged to the entertainment expenses vote.

Sir, I believe that relationships with our neighbours come within the portfolio of the Hon. the Chief Minister. At present, Sir, I am worried about our relations with the Federation of Malaya. What I am thinking about is whether our Chief Minister has properly put our case over to the Federation so that the two territories will go forward as a single economic Unit. All the time we hope that Singapore and the Federation will finally come together as one political unit, but today we hear rumours that there will be a clamp on the causeway-

Order. I hate interrupting, especially in Committee of Supply, but it appears to me that that subject touches on external affairs which, if I am not mistaken, comes within the Ministry of the Chief Secretary.

Sir, I think that such affairs as this are decided by the Council of Ministers with the Chief Minister at its head.

Yes, but I do not mean that the Chief Minister does not come into the picture when the Ministry of the Chief Secretary is being debated. I might be wrong but perhaps the Chief Secretary could inform the House whether external affairs of this nature come within the Ministry of the Chief Secretary? If they do, then of course a debate can be initiated when we come to the head dealing with the Ministry of the Chief Secretary. Perhaps the Chief Secretary could clarify?

External affairs is under my Ministry.

Perhaps the hon. Member will wait patiently until we come to the Chief Secretary's Ministry; then he can develop his argument?

Yes, Sir. We shall develop it when we come to that head. Now under subhead 1, item (11), I find provision for an economic adviser. (He should probably have come within the Ministry of Commerce and Industry.) I shall drop external affairs and talk about the economy of Singapore. We are engaging an adviser at the all-inclusive rate of $4,000 per month or $48,000 per year. I am certain he must have tendered all his advice but the more important thing is, is the advice acted upon? If such advice has been acted upon, what improvements have we got to show? The present trend of events does not seem to indicate that we are spending this money very wisely. If it is a matter of getting good advice, I think we should get it from that eminent person. Here the advice would appear not to have been acted upon, and we would like some elucidation on this point.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the post of Economic Adviser was debated, in this Assembly last December. The reason for the post is that Government feels that it is very vital to the economy of Singapore to retain the valuable services of the Economic Adviser. The Member for Serangoon asked whether the advice he has tendered to us has been acted upon. Surely it is ridiculous to suggest that we engage a man as a specialist to advise us on certain matters and then we do not heed him. The Member may think otherwise but we find that the presence in the Colony of the Economic Adviser and the work he has been doing in my Ministry is very vital at the present time.

I was prompted to ask the Chief Minister whether the advice was acted upon because see no improvement in Singapore business. Furthermore, Sir, I have been troubled all the time by what the Hon. the Minister for Communications and Works has said before - that many experts have been asked by Government to come to Singapore, that one expert contradicts another, and that finally he had to throw out all the advice of the experts and act on his own advice. If this is the case in this instance, we would be wasting money.

Mr Speaker, Sir, it would appear that the hon. Member is dense or is being deliberately dense. It was pointed out to him by my colleague the Minister for Communications and Works that when he seeks the advice of a specialist he sticks to that advice, he does not go on looking for further advice because experience has shown that when you seek advice from different specialists, different advice is tendered.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am satisfied with the reply and assurance to my points. As I said, I only wanted to initiate a debate. However, may I still stress that ours is only a small place - some 220 square miles with 1� million population - and that it is a stop-over place on the way to the Federation for ministers of various other countries who, as a matter of courtesy, call on the Chief Minister of Singapore. I am glad that the Chief Minister will be careful not to overspend.

Is the hon. Member begging leave to withdraw the amendment?

If that is so, Sir, I do not wish to take up the time of the House.

Will the hon. Member then beg leave to withdraw the amendment?

No, Sir, I shall remain silent.

I might remind hon. Members that if they express satisfaction with an explanation, the usual course is to beg leave to withdraw an amendment and, if there is no dissenting voice, the amendment is accordingly withdrawn.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 7 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of subhead 1 therein. Sir, last year, as we can see from the "Remarks" column of the Estimates, page 47, the Secretary to the Chief Minister was graded G. Now he is to be a time-scale officer. I would like to know what is the principle involved in grading these posts, or whether it is left to the whims of each individual Minister and Ministry to grade secretaries to Ministers and fix any scale they think, fit.

Mr Speaker, Sir, for the information of the hon. Member for Tanjong Pagar, the reason why the scale for the Secretary in my Ministry has been, shall we say, down-graded, from superscale G to time-scale is because, first and foremost, the Chief Minister must have a free choice as to who should work for him as his Secretary. If it is to be limited to superscale G officers, the choice is thereby greatly limited; but if it were to be open to time-scale officers with an allowance of $200, the field is greater. So far three officers have been working as Secretary in my Ministry but not one of them has yet been placed on superscale G. What they have been drawing is their usual salary plus half the difference between this and the superscale G with a maximum of $200. But if he is a time-scale officer, no matter what his salary is, we will now give him an allowance of $200, which in effect means that he will get more than if he were to come into a superscale G post. Mr Lee Kuan Yew rose -

On a point of clarification? The hon. Member knows there cannot be a debate on any details?

Sir, I am not satisfied with the explanation. First, I do not think the Chief Minister can be correct when he says that the purpose of this operation of down-grading the post is to give his Secretary more money than if he becomes a superscale Grade G officer. Of course I agree that the Minister must have a free choice as to who should be his secretary, but surely it cannot be to give him more money than he could earn in a time-scale post?

Sir, I am afraid the hon. Member has got the wrong end of the stick. It is not the intention to pay more money to the Secretary. The purpose is that if the post is reduced to a time-scale job with an allowance of $200, I will have a bigger field from which to choose my secretary.

What is this allowance of $200 which is going to be added to the salary of this time-scale officer holding the post?

The allowance, Sir, is a fixed one in the same way as that paid, shall we say, to the A.D.C. to the Governor and to one or two other officers, particularly his Private Secretary. Making it an allowance with a maximum of $200 is an easier method of computation than to pay a man the difference between his usual salary and that of the superscale G post. In effect the amounts are the same unless the man has reached the top of his time-scale.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. The sum of $239,810 for Head 7 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 8 -

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 10 therein. Sir, in moving this amendment to the subhead "City Council Elections", I want to draw the attention of this House to the very unsatisfactory polling arrangements for these elections. I will only refer to those in my own area of which I have special knowledge, although I believe there is dissatisfaction in other areas as well. As soon as I saw the Gazette notices regarding the placing of polling stations and the allocation of voters to stations in the Ulu Pandan area, I wrote a letter to the Hon. the Chief Secretary. I pointed out, firstly, that voters at the 7th mile Holland Road had to travel past one polling station in Holland Village to another one in Farrer Road (which is not in the Ulu Pandan Division at all but outside it); secondly, that, voters at the 94 mile Clementi Road had to travel past both these two polling stations to a third in Duchess Road off Bukit Timah Road, a distance of at least four miles. I asked in particular that the Clementi Road votes should be allowed to go to Holland Village, thus reducing the distance they have to travel from four miles to two, but I was told that there were only 150 of them or so, that there were bus routes available and that nothing could be done. Sir, I invite the Hon. the Chief Secretary to travel with me by bus from 9� mile Clementi Road to Duchess Road, involving three changes of buses, and back, and see how long it takes. Perhaps after being taken not on one ride but six, he will not maintain this attitude of indifference to the convenience of kampong voters whom we are trying to encourage to cast votes at democratic elections probably for the first time. I would add further that this state of affairs would never have arisen if the rural Ulu Pandan area had been left in a District Council area, where it belongs, instead of the Government obstinately insisting on bringing it within City Council jurisdiction against our advice.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I wondered what the Member for Tanglin was going to dwell upon when he moved this amendment. I am sure Members of this House will appreciate that the Government has on its hands perhaps the biggest and one of the most important elections in the history of Singapore, that the arrangements are all on a very large scale and that we have done our best to make them as satisfactory and convenient as can be. On the whole, Sir, I think we have not done badly at all. There may be, as the Member for Tanglin said, one or two places where conditions are not so satisfactory in that there will be a bit of inconvenience to voters in the matter of choosing polling stations. I would like to point out that siting of polling stations depends on the availability of buildings, and in the case mentioned by the Member for Tanglin, one of the difficulties was that in the register of voters for the Holland Road area all the voters were put in one block and it was not easy to subdivide them into smaller ones owing to difficulty in locating house numbers. I am aware of the route which the Member for Tanglin has described. I have explained it to him but apparently he is not satisfied with my explanation. I can give the assurance, Sir, that we will try to improve matters for the next election, but I would like the House to bear with us in this present very big one, in which the arrangements and organisation have been on a very large scale; if we do cause a bit of inconvenience, we ask for patience and understanding, Sir. On the whole we have done our best to accommodate the 520,000 voters who will cast their votes on polling day on 21st December.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I appreciate what the Hon. the Chief Secretary has stated - that this is a most important election and that the availability of buildings constitutes a great difficulty. But will he explain why it is that voters in Clementi Road, to whom I referred, are allowed to by-pass two polling stations en route to a third four miles away?

Mr Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member for Tanglin has accused the Chief Secretary of an indifferent attitude in making arrangements for the polling stations for the forthcoming City Council elections. I would like to refute this allegation and accusation very emphatically. Of course the Member for Tanglin had raised the question of polling stations in Ulu Pandan. We have investigated the matter very carefully. The fact of course is this, that he has his own ideas and views about certain polling stations and their siting, whereas our Returning Officer has different ones. Therefore it is quite clear that it is a matter of opinion as to where a polling station should be sited. As far as possible, the Returning Officer has made a very true selection of the situation and recommended a certain site. It is no use trying to cast any aspersion on the efficiency of the Department; nor is it right at this time to make any imputations or accusations about the 'indifferent' manner in which the Department has been functioning. We all have to bear this in mind - the one fact - that we have very inadequate accommodation for the number of people who may come to the polls. All these aspects will have to be taken into account when matters of this nature are raised. We cannot agree to hon, members' views in a matter like this.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I have not for a moment questioned the siting of the polling stations in the area to which we are referring. I am only asking for an explanation as to why certain voters are required to by-pass no less than two polling stations en route to a third.

Sir, the two polling stations are too small to cater for more voters than what is estimated they can deal with. 11.45 a.m.

Sir, we understand it is not easy to please everybody but what we do take objection to is this - by the time we knew where the polling stations were going to be, arrangements had proceeded so far that it was impossible to alter any one of them without grave dislocation of the administrative machinery. The day it was announced in the Press, all the cards which were to be posted to electors on the Register were, according to the Returning Officer, already prepared or almost completed, and to change any polling station would mean re-addressing all those cards. For that reason, it was impossible to make any alteration. If the Returning Officer, or the Chief Secretary on his behalf, had given prior information to candidates or to political Parties of the arrangements that he was then contemplating, surely it would have been possible for all the political Parties and candidates to have suggested alternative arrangements in particular cases. For instance, one centre in what was formerly Tanjong Pagar and is now Kreta Ayer, in the City Council elections, will not be voting within that area but will go off to the Malay School in Park Road, completely outside the area in another constituency. It has been suggested that this has not taken place in previous elections. Sir, if we had known in time of this proposal, we might have acted without dislocating the whole administrative process. This is no aspersion on the Returning Officer, but if he himself or his staff could not find other arrangements, we might have been able to suggest to him other facilities available in the neighbourhood. But by the time we knew about the need for it, the thing was too late, the whole matter had been settled.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in cases of polling stations I think the principle should be that maximum convenience should be given to the voters and not to the returning officers concerned. I quote one instance, Sir, In the Boon Teck Road area, the polling station is sited near the main road - Balestier Road - where there is a Blue Cross headquarters. The voters, however, live right inside Boon Teck Road, in a large number of houses. They will have to go through a stretch of road which is almost impassable. If the weather is bad, I think there will be a chance of vehicles bogging down. Instead of giving a greater measure of convenience to the people inside the road to go to a polling station in the village, all the thousands who want to vote will have to pass through that bad stretch of road. Government may say that there is no alternative site but I know that those who know of the siting of that polling station did go to the Government department concerned and offer an alternative site right inside the village, but that was not considered. It was said to be too late. Well, if Government will not consult the people on a matter like this, and site all the polling stations at their own convenience and not that of voters, I should say that the fault lies squarely with those who are concerned with siting polling stations. Lack of premises is out of the question because alternative sites have been suggested to them. I think in this matter it is not too late even now to have the polling station sited right inside if-

No.

- we are to expect a higher percentage of voting. We must put polling stations at the convenience of the voters. This will mean saving them transport and many hours.

Sir, the Member for Serangoon suggests that Government selects polling stations for its own convenience. I disagree entirely with him. As I said just now, we select polling stations to suit the convenience of everybody. On the whole we have done well to reach that objective. There is another point which the Member makes, namely, that we must select these polling stations for the maximum convenience of everybody and that we should, if necessary, con-suit the various political Parties. One difficulty which may arise is that perhaps political Parties have different views on where a polling station should be sited. Another point which the Member raised was that it is not too late to alter the site of polling stations. I am sure. Sir, that all Members will agree that it is too late. You cannot do anything now; if you want to change anything now, it will cause confusion.

Sir, under the head "Chief Secretary", I believe that citizenship registration

Order. We are still on the first amendment.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 14 therein. This amendment, Mr Speaker, must be considered in conjunction with my next one, that is concerning Head 8, item (1), subhead 24. Under subhead 14, item (1), the Secretary for Home and External Affairs, Grade E, title changed (as mentioned in the "Remarks" column, page 54 of the Estimates) from Secretary for Internal Affairs, post regraded from grade D; in other words, there was a downgrading. Under subhead 24, item (1), Secretary for Defence, Grade D, the title is changed from Secretary for Defence and Internal Security. In other words, it is now proposed to split up this particular office of Secretary for Defence and Internal Security. What I do not understand is how do they settle the grades? In subhead 14 (1) the officer will have nine Division I officers under him; five Division II officers, items (11) to (14); 37 Division III officers, items (15) to (23); and six Division IV. In other words, he has a far larger staff than this other officer to be called Secretary for Defence, Grade D, who will only have six Division I officers, two Division II, six Division III, and one Division IV. Sir, the man who is going to be put on as Grade D, Secretary for Defence, has a staff which is less than half that of the Secretary for Home and External Affairs, Grade E. Now who settled all this grading? Is there any principle, any yardstick? Or is this all done at the whim and fancy of the Director of Personnel, Permanent Secretary (Establishment) or whoever may be the officer in charge who minuted up to him? Surely there must have been some kind of principle, some kind of yardstick that must have been applied before one is put down as Grade D and the other as Grade E, and the man with the bigger staff turns out to be less important?

The Question is "That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 14 therein", and, as indicated by the hon. Member, discussion may range over the next amendment standing in his name, "That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 24 therein."

Mr Speaker, Sir, I expected the Member for Tanjong Pagar to speak on the lines that he has spoken. On the face of it, it would appear that the grading of these two posts may not be correct, but I think the grading is all right. Experience in my Ministry for the last two years has shown it desirable that there should be a rearrangement of duties within the branches of the Chief Secretary's Office. It is now proposed to bring under one branch, control of internal security and intelligence, home affairs and that part of external affairs which falls within my Ministry. The post of Secretary for Chinese Affairs has been abolished and the duties of his post will be performed by the head of the new branch as mentioned, i.e. the Secretary for Home and External Affairs. The intention is, Sir, that although it would appear that the Secretary for Home and External Affairs would have a bigger staff and that the other sections -

He has a bigger staff; there is no "appearing" about it.

I am sorry, I should have said he has a bigger staff. The other sections have been brought under this branch and the intention is that certain aspects of the work of my Ministry will be dealt with by the Deputy Chief Secretary himself and not by the Secretary for Home and External Affairs; and that there would be access in these matters direct from the Assistant Secretaries to the Deputy Chief Secretary, who is the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry. This post of Home and External Affairs is considered to be that of a Deputy Secretary, like the posts of Deputy Secretaries in other Ministries which is also graded E, for example Deputy Secretaries in the Ministries of Local Government, Lands and Housing, and of Commerce and Industry. These Deputy Secretaries are all of Grade E status. By this new arrangement, the Secretary for Defence would be released from responsibility for internal security. This would enable him to devote his full time to matters concerning - can I speak on both amendments, Sir?

Certainly. 12.00 noon

- concerning the Singapore forces which are at present expanding, and policy matters relating to defence. The Secretary for Defence, although he works under the Deputy Chief Secretary, will also be required to deal directly for administrative reasons with the heads of the military services in Singapore, and his responsibilities will be of a somewhat higher nature than those of some other Deputy Secretaries within the Government structure and whose grading is E. It is because of this special nature of his duties, the work of his Ministry in connection with the expansion and development of our local defence forces, and the need to have defence planning for Singapore, that the post has been graded the same as it was formerly. Another reason for making this reorganisation, Sir, is that it would enable my Ministry to remain flexible and adaptable to changes when the new Constitution comes in. There might then be a reorganisation of the work in my Ministry; part of its work may be taken over by some Ministry or other under the new Constitution. We have made this reorganisation to make my Ministry somewhat flexible to enable changes if necessary to take place in the future.

Whose expert judgment was it? Was there expert judgment on it? If so, whose was it, and what was the criterion?

Order. I did indicate at our informal meeting that hon. Members would be permitted to ventilate grievances in Committee of Supply, but I think a line must be drawn as to how far that can go. If we are to embark on a debate on the details of items, then in the first instance we shall be going against the relevant Standing Order which says that there cannot be a debate on details of expenditure; and secondly, we may be encroaching on the jurisdiction of the Estimates Committee which, I have no doubt, will, on representation, look into details of this nature.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am far from wanting to go into details. You would have noticed that my next amendment is on subhead 36, item (4), on the Organisation and Methods Adviser. The whole question is one of principle. Was there somebody who knew his job who weighed up the merits of a particular Department? Or was it just some confused and not very clear-thinking expert, who was really not an expert on this business of organisation and methods, who made up his mind to tinker with this, that and the other? And this would lead on to my next point, on subhead 36, item (4), the question of the Organisation and Methods Adviser. We approved this appointment in 1957, under Command Paper 30 of 1957; has this appointment been filled?

Perhaps the hon. Member's remarks vis-a-vis these other items could be properly raised when his motion in regard to item (4) of subhead 36 is reached. I understand the hon. Member for Serangoon wishes to speak on external affairs; this is the opportunity.

Sir, on the matter of relationships with the Federation of Malaya, I have been greatly perturbed by rumours or newspaper reports that the Federation is to clamp down on travel from Singapore across the Causeway. This does indicate to me that the Singapore Government has not been doing its job for the people here. Perhaps it has never put the case properly to the Government of the Federation. If there has been proper understanding, then we would expect that there will not only be no clamp, but real freedom of travel between the two countries all the time, a thing which should be encouraged and established. Furthermore, we would expect greater economic co-operation in all matters concerning trade and allied matters. So far as we see it, the Singapore Government seems not to be in a position to assist progress in this direction. If it fails in this duty of promoting greater understanding between the two territories, resulting in a blockade of the Causeway and greater differences in economic policies, it will bring hardship not only to the people of Singapore but also to the Federation as a whole. This question is of paramount importance and we expect our Ministers to exert their utmost in this direction. If they fail to do that, then I think Singapore will suffer by their acts. Under this heading again, Sir - Home and External Affairs - I would like to raise another point, citizenship registration. At present we have many classes of people being registered. Those born in Singapore automatically are registered as citizens of Singapore. There are others born outside Singapore, the aliens. Aliens who have lived here for the last eight years are eligible to be registered as citizens by making a simple declaration. All they have to produce is their identity cards showing that they have been in Singapore for that period and not been away for more than six months. This class of people will now be protected. In the case of those born in Singapore who can produce birth certificates and establish that those certificates belong to them, there will be no difficulty. But I am going to talk about a class of people born in Singapore, who declare that they were born here, but who have no birth certificates. In the days of long ago - 30, 40 or 50 years ago - births might not have been reported, or reported but the dates and places might be forgotten; there is no possibility of such citizens being able to show proof that they were born here. Under the present registration system, they cannot register as citizens. On their identity cards it is stated that they are born in Singapore, but when it comes to proving it, they cannot do so. What will be the position of these people? If we require proof, then I am afraid that they will suffer and be placed in an inferior position compared with aliens who have made declarations and become citizens. Aliens can swear an oath of allegiance and become citizens, but the people I am referring to are not allowed to swear the oath to take out citizenship. Unless the Government is willing to take the identity card as proof, people in this category will be placed in a very awkward position; and later, when it comes to travel facilities and other benefits, they may be left in the lurch - in a position far worse than aliens who acquired citizenship.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to speak on external affairs, Head 8. I wonder whether the present Government has weighed the genuine feelings of the people of Singapore, their keenness about the coming Afro-Asian Conference in Cairo. If Press reports are correct, the Federation of Malaya is prepared to send a delegation to the meeting. The Singapore Government should give a clear statement whether it is also prepared to do so or to join the Federation in sending a delegation to attend this most significant conference. I would like to talk about home affairs. As one who has carefully examined the past administration of the Government I can say that at least three evil things have not been lessened. The first is gambling. I wonder how many kinds of gambling now exist in Singapore, especially illegal lotteries? The famous ban-ji plo is in operation; and chap ji ki, operating day and night, is sucking the blood of the poor and the low income group. The authorities can answer that at present there is a loophole in our laws and we cannot prosecute these operators. Sir, I wish the Government would take immediate steps to stop this widespread gambling, especially illegal lotteries. It can ascertain how widespread these repercussions are from the hawkers, taxi drivers and market stallholders - how much of their income is affected in this widespread gambling. I wonder what the authorities in charge of home affairs will do about it. The second point is gangsters. It is also known, Sir, that gangsters now threaten not only the millionaires but also the students and hawkers. Politics are also involved. Political Parties have relied on gangsters and I wonder what preventive measures have been taken by the Chief Secretary's Ministry. The third point is the Banishment Ordinance. I wonder how much value still remains in this Ordinance, used to punish and banish undesirable characters. In the past we might have faith in the integrity or wisdom of Government in banishing gangsters or undesirable characters; but when the Ordinance is used to banish a person like Dr Chuang Chu Lin, the people of Singapore begin to doubt. Dr Chuang is such a well-known educationist connected with Chinese education for so long, and everybody knows that he is not an undesirable character; any citizen will be very willing to uphold him as a lawful and loyal citizen. Sir, I therefore take this opportunity to suggest to the Government that it should reconsider repealing the Banishment Ordinance and review cases of banishment including that of Dr Chuang. This will give back confidence to the public in the administration and make them feel that there is stability.

I think this is an appropriate time to suspend. Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the Assembly.

I shall take the Chair again at 2.30 p.m. Sitting accordingly suspended at 12.16 p.m. until 2.30 p.m.

Sitting resumed at 2.30 p.m. Debate in Committee of Supply resumed. Resumption of debate on Question, "That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 14 therein."-(Mr Lee Kuan Yew). 2.31 p.m. Question again proposed.

Mr Speaker, Sir, there have been remarks regarding external affairs. I just want to ask: What powers have we as far as external affairs are concerned? We, as a colony, have nothing to do with this question of external affairs. Of course, we politicians should keep our eyes and ears open, but we have no powers under the present constitution, nor have we under the new constitution. The British Government has kept them. Of course, we will have internal self-government. That means you manage your own affairs in your own little city, and run it like good boys, or you do not get this also. Sir, we will have all elected Assemblymen under the new constitution. We will have the high-sounding name of Prime Minister and, instead of the Governor, we will have the Yang di-Pertuan Negara. These are changes in names only but we have not got the real substance at all with us. We have no say in external affairs. I doubt whether we will have any say for some time to come in the future. Sir, reference has been made to the Federation. The Federation is an independent country. It has to preserve its own independence. I have always refrained from talking about the Federation in this Assembly for the simple reason that, because of our economic position, nothing should be said which may displease the Federation. The Chief Minister seems to love entering into marriages and then annulling them. Sir, this is a definite announcement of their policy by the Federation Government. Such a marriage, if it comes, will find both the bride and bridegroom old. Sir, what I would suggest is that, instead of talking about all this, we should try to maintain harmonious relations with the Federation because of our economic dependence on them. We have, as I said, no say in external affairs, and it seems to me that this colony will be kept as it is as long as is possible, primarily now for the interests of Australia and New Zealand. In our own interests, therefore, I would like to tell my Singapore friends to unite and try to get maximum powers as time goes on.

Mr Speaker, Sir, under this particular item Members of the Opposition have touched on certain points which I feel require explanations. One hon. Member says that we have no power over external affairs. It is true that even under the new constitution we have no power over external affairs other than trade and cultural relations. But it does not mean that, because we do not have that power, we should not have in our administration an officer whose special job is to look after this side of things. It is necessary that we should have such an officer so that he can keep Singapore informed of the day-to-day goings-on in matters of external affairs. While it is true, as I have admitted, that we have no power over external affairs, yet the Council of Ministers has been brought in very closely in such matters. Our views have been sought and they have always been respected. Another Member brought in the question of registration of citizenship in so far as people who are local born are concerned. I am sure the hon. Member is aware that, in regard to people who were born in Singapore, no registration is necessary. They are automatically citizens of Singapore. Another Member brought in the Banishment Ordinance and said that this Ordinance should be applied vigorously against gangsters. I would like to inform the hon. Member that times have changed, that those who are involved in such activities are those who are local born. The Banishment Ordinance cannot be applied to them. One more point, Sir, and that is, relations with the Federation. Our relations with the Federation have been of the very best. I do not think any other government can have the same measure of co-operation that we have been having. But one must not forget that it is not only what the Government does and what the Government says that counts in our relationship. It is what the people of Singapore do and events happening in Singapore that have an impact on the relationship that we have built up.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am afraid I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Hon. the Chief Minister regarding external affairs. This morning I raised the question whether the Labour Front Coalition Government would be prepared to send a delegation to attend the coming Afro-Asian Conference to be held in Cairo. Of course, we know very well that external affairs even under the future constitution will remain in the hands of the United Kingdom. But since the Hon, the Chief Minister has said that the Council of Ministers keeps in close touch with external affairs and its opinion is sought and respected, may I therefore enquire whether the Labour Front Coalition Government will agree with me that it is the strong desire of the people of Singapore that we should send a delegation to, or join the Federation at least as an observer to attend, the Afro-Asian Conference to be held in Cairo in order to demonstrate the true spirit of the Afro-Asian nations.

Mr Speaker, Sir, under this item and I think the other item, Secretary for Defence, matters on general policy have been brought up and debated. I would like to return again to the point which the Member for Tanjong Pagar first raised, and that was the question of grading. I have already explained the reasons for reorganisation of these posts. Their grading has been decided after complete consultation between the officers of my Ministry and the Treasury, and we consider that the grading is correct.

Mr Speaker, Sir, if good relationship with the Federation has been maintained at the expense of Singapore, then I agree with the Government that we have maintained that good relationship; but what I am seeking is a balanced relationship whereby both parties will share the good things which they both want. In this respect, I think if Government can enumerate to us what benefit Singapore has derived from such a relationship, I shall be very happy indeed. On the question of citizenship registration, I am afraid, Sir, that the Chief Minister has missed the point entirely. I am not disputing that those born in Singapore need not register. Everybody knows that. I am only asking what the Government's policy is with regard to those who were born in Singapore, but do not have documentary evidence to prove it. For example, a person born 40 years ago in Singapore may not have a birth certificate, or a person might have reported his birth but has forgotten his date and so on. Would the Government be satisfied in such cases to accept as true evidence the declarations as contained in the Identity Cards or declarations made by way of statutory declarations? I mention this because if Government does not allow this, then this class of people will later on be worse off than those who are aliens registering for Singapore citizenship now, when it come to travel facilities, etc. 2.45 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member says I have misunderstood him. Therefore I have paid greater attention to him when he was speaking just now. And I still find that he has not put his case, shall we say, succinctly and clearly before us. In reply to what he has said so far, I would like again to point out to him that evidence of birth is not demanded of them before they can become citizens of Singapore. If the identity card of a person shows that he was born in Singapore, then he is automatically a citizen of Singapore and put on the electoral rolls.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the reply given by the Chief Minister may, in his personal opinion, be correct, but he has missed the point on the question of applying for passports. I quite agree that anybody whose identity card shows that he is Singapore born is automatically placed on the electoral rolls, but the question of becoming Singapore citizens does not only touch on the question of voting or to be voted into power. There are a lot of complications attached to the question of Singapore citizenship when applying for a passport. So will the Chief Minister tell this House whether a declaration is considered valid, and whether a passport will be issued on production of a statutory declaration when the identity card shows the person to be born in Singapore.

There will be a great increase in statutory declarations!

Oh, yes, plenty.

Mr Speaker, Sir, now I understand the question. In fact, I understood the question already, but as the hon Member himself did not frame it in as clear a way as the hon. Member for Queenstown, I found I was only called upon to answer what was brought up by the hon. Member, not something that I thought he meant to bring up and did not know how to bring up! In regard to the question of passports for Singapore citizens, Sir, this is a matter which has not been finalised. For the present purpose of having a general election to bring the new constitution into force, the Singapore Citizenship Ordinance was brought into being. Between now and until the coming into force of the new constitution, that citizenship has only local currency. It has no currency outside. As far as an application for a British passport is concerned, at the present time it is necessary for an applicant to give proof of birth. It has happened that, in cases of the kind brought up by the hon. Member, although an applicant has no birth certificate, if he is able to satisfy the Controller of Immigration that he was born in Singapore and he does not even have a birth certificate, a passport has been issued to him. Just to give an illustration, Sir. A man was born 40 years ago, the hon. Member said. He has no birth certificate because his parents did not register his birth or because he is not aware whether his parents had or had not registered his birth. If he is able to get someone who is in a position to certify that he, of his own personal knowledge, knows that the applicant was born in Singapore on such and such a date, that evidence is good.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lee Kuan Yew:- That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 24 therein.

As regards my next amendment standing on the Order Paper, i.e. amendment (iii), I beg leave to withdraw it. It has already been touched upon.

The hon. Member is not moving it?

I am not moving it, Sir, I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (4) of subhead 36 therein. Sir, I have already touched upon this matter of the proper evaluation of the jobs and one of the things that should be done is to fill the post of Organisation and Methods Adviser. I would like to know from the Government whether they have a suitable candidate in view, and when this position will be filled.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we would very much like to appoint this Organisation and Methods Adviser. The difficulty encountered has been in finding a suitable man. When one was found, he was not attracted by the salary offered. The salary which we have provided for the expert has been based upon our previous experience in trying to obtain the services of such an officer. There is a heavy demand in other parts of the world for the services of specialist officers, and we can only hope to get an expert if we are prepared to pay what he can demand elsewhere. The salary which he will be paid, which you will see in the Estimates, Sir, is quite high. But even that salary has not proved to be sufficiently attractive to obtain his services. I would like to say that we on the Government side are very keen on having this Organisation and Methods Adviser. We will try again to find another expert, but we do not propose to increase the salary which is fixed in the Estimates.

I think this may be a convenient point at which I can raise another matter in connection with the establishment. Mr Speaker, Sir, I am informed by the Staff Side of the Government Whitley Council that the Government side is circulating a proposal to have further consolidations of temporary allowances into basic salary, and then having the Public Service Commission Ordinance and the European Officers Abolition Terms Ordinance - I have forgotten the exact title of it, Mr Speaker, Sir, but it is the Ordinance providing for compensation for abolition of European officers' posts - incorporated in an Order in Council. I have not seen the circular. In fact, this matter was raised with me at a very late stage. Before I go into it in detail, I would like to state, as a matter of principle, that when we went to London this year we agreed on certain things. One of the things we agreed on was that the constitution and its draft would be discussed by the Parties represented on the delegation before any changes were introduced. And if the proposal which I have mentioned just now is gone through, then what will happen is that no government in Singapore will be in a position to make any alterations to the wage scale of government servants. If this is true, I cannot understand this armadillo complex. Nobody is immune from the change that is coming to Singapore. If we try to armour-plate ourselves with Orders in Council to see that our interests are protected for all time, then all it would do is to create greater public irritation and outcry against these issues. It would probably lead to further deterioration of the position of the public service in the eyes of the people of Singapore. Sir, I would be very happy to hear it refuted.

I wonder if the Chief Secretary can tell this House whether it is going to be a permanent appointment or a temporary appointment - temporary in the sense that it affects the reorganisation of the department - and after reorganisation will this appointment be abolished? Another thing I would like to know is what are the duties of this Organisation and Methods Adviser? The City Council set up an Organisation and Methods Department about two years ago, and speaking from experience, Sir, all that it has done has been to cause more disorganisation than organisation. So I wonder if the Chief Secretary can explain the duties of the officer to be appointed and whether his appointment is temporary or permanent.

Mr Speaker, Sir, this Organisation and Methods Adviser will be on contract for three years. It is proposed that the task of this officer will be to train local men in the organisation and methods technique and to set up a section which will eventually be fully staffed by local officers trained in this work. It is also proposed from time to time to send these officers for further training in the United Kingdom Treasury and in Australia. I would like to point out also, Sir, that the section is intended to provide for proper attention to be paid to the efficiency of Government departments in the full sense, which includes economy consistent with the maintenance of speed and the quality of work.

I would like to reply to the point raised by the Member for Tanjong Pagar. Sir,I understood him to say that Government had issued a circular in which it was proposed that there should be a further consolidation of variable allowance into basic salary. Is that correct?

Yes.

That, Sir, is not the case. A proposal has been made by the Staff Side that there should be a further consolidation of variable allowance into basic salary. I think I can speak for the Government when I say that the proposal will not be supported.

Could I have refutation of the allegation made that an Order in Council is proposed to be brought into being to replace the Public Service Commission Ordinance and the Ordinance in regard to abolition terms?

It is true, Sir, that an Order in Council will be made to incorporate the Public Service Commission Ordinance and the Compensation Ordinance. It is just to ensure that these two Ordinances are properly enshrined.

Can the Chief Minister assure us that neither of these Ordinances will be abolished and incorporated into Orders in Council until all political Parties have been consulted to see that no departure is made from the Report of the Constitutional. Commission?

If I may reply to this, Sir. The proposal made by the hon. Member is quite beyond me and I think we should have notice of that particular question. I just do not understand what he is talking about.

The Chief Minister does.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. 3.00p.m.

This is another anomaly which I am anxious to have the Government clear up. I move, Sir, That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (5) of subhead 36 therein. Sir, I would like to take item (5) together with item (10). They both come under Establishment, Personal Emoluments, subhead 36. We have against item (5): Assistant Secretaries, Class III, three [$1,100-40A-1,260], and under item (10): Assistant Secretaries, three [$680-35A-750/ bar/785-35A- 1,030/bar! 1,100-40A-1,420]. Are there six such Assistant Secretaries, three on just a segment of the full timescale, $1,100-$1,260, or will there be three, who are in fact Assistant Secretaries under item (10), but who will be boosted up under item (5)? It is nice to the Permanent Secretary (Establishment).

Sir, with regard to item (5) subhead 36, Sir, you will notice that there is no increase of posts. The holders of these posts are two Assistant Secretaries who deal with service matters, and one Assistant Secretary who is the Secretary of the Official Side of the Singapore Civil Service Joint Council. These posts were established some years ago and, in accordance with the practice then, were classified as Class III posts to be held by officers of some seniority. There are certain drawbacks in the system of classes within the timescale of the Administrative service, and since 1955 timescale posts in the Establishment have not been classed showing the timescale. Posts previously classed continue to be so. We ourselves are not very happy about this, Sir, but if there is a case of doing away with these classes entirely, we shall have to negotiate with the Staff Side. With regard to item (10) of subhead 36, Sir, there is also no increase in the number of posts over the present establishment. These posts were created in recent years and are on the full time-scale. We would like to emphasise that it has been realised that six Assistant Secretaries is the bare minimum which the Establishment Branch should have. The three Assistant Secretaries in posts against item (5) subhead 36 are not drawing the salary scale as shown therein.

I just wish to make this further comment. If the three officers who are supposed to be budgeted for in item (5) are not drawing the salary scale shown there, then why are we not presented with a Budget which shows the correct position?

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Sir, I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (7) of subhead 36 therein. Item (7) sets out that there are 20 Supernumerary officers and this sum of money is "Reserve for leave, training, overlap and special duties". I understand, Sir, that the Governor has issued instructions that, as Government are short of Administrative officers, none of them are to go away for training for the time being. If that is true, what is the sum being budgeted for?

Is the hon. Member asking for information or is he moving an amendment? I wish to be quite certain.

At this stage I am moving this formally. I shall press the matter further after I have a reply.

This provision is necessary to provide for the salaries of officers in training (that is, Administrative cadets), officers on leave, officers on special duties, and to provide for overlap. The training is for cadet officers who are on probation for three years. At present, there are ten cadets in training and provision has also been made for an intake of officers in 1958. With regard to leave, Sir, this provision also covers the salaries of expatriate and local officers on leave. As regards the overlapping of special duties, Sir, we envisage the position where we may wish to replace an officer and we cannot make the change at once, and there will be an overlap sometimes for a period of one week or two weeks or even a month and we pay these officers for their overlap duties from this vote.

The Chief Secretary has not answered my point. Has there been a directive that no Administrative officers are to be sent away for training whilst we are short of them, or has there not been such a directive? If there was such a directive, as I was informed there was, what is this vote for training all about?

Sir, we have reduced the number of Administrative officers who have gone for overseas training. This is really an item which comes under another vote, Sir. A reduction has been imposed in view of the difficult staffing position which does not permit of many administrative officers being sent for training. In 1957, 28 administrative officers were sent for training, but in 1958 the number will be very much less. This particular item is not in respect of overseas training. It is in respect of local training.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Sir, I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (8) of subhead 36 therein. Sir, item (8) is related to item (14) in this way. There are ten Supernumerary Administrative officers budgeted for in item (8). In item (14) there are 20 Supernumerary Executive officer posts being created. The whole purpose of the Executive service, we were informed, was that it would economise on the number of officers required. Instead of having purely Administrative officers or purely Clerical officers, we have an intermediate class which would be able to do part top clerical jobs and part lower administrative jobs. We are creating 20 such officers in this particular section of the government machine and there are still ten Supernumerary Administrative officers budgeted for under item (8). Further, item (8) shows an increase over last year of about $21,000. Sir, far from the Government fulfilling what was its professed intention, it seems to us that they have created more jobs on the executive level without a corresponding decrease on the administrative level.

The Question is, "That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (8) of subhead 36 therein" and, as indicated, discussion may range over the next item, that is, "That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (14) of subhead 36 therein."

Sir, I am certainly having a field day! In respect of item (8) of subhead 36, Supernumerary Administrative officers, of the eight officers recommended by the Public Service Commission for appointment as Supernumerary Administrative officers, three have been confirmed in their appointments at the end of the trial period of six months in July 1957. The remaining five officers have had their trial period extended for a further six months and their cases are now before the Public Service Commission. The provision in the Estimates for ten Supernumerary Administrative officers is necessary to provide for the salaries of these officers who may be confirmed and for those officers who may, if Government decides to repeat the scheme, be selected. We may decide to repeat it. I do not think the number of officers under this scheme in any way conflicts with the number of Executive officer (Supernumerary) posts - twenty. These posts in the Establishment Office are provided in the Estimates as a pool for training for special duties and as a reserve for overlapping duties in cases of postings and so forth. This scheme is being formulated for the training of officers appointed to the Executive service and was recommended by the Executive Service Joint Council Working Committee consisting of the Staff Side and Official Side representatives. As I say, this provision also covers cases of secondment of officers for work on commissions and committees for which there are no established posts, and it will also provide for officers who may be required to assist in emergency arrangements like, for instance, the registration of citizens. Again, Sir, as I have mentioned a little while ago, when it comes to the question of overlapping duties, this only occurs when it is necessary to effect a change in the holder of an office. It is often necessary for the officer succeeding the holder to understudy the work for some weeks or even months. Provision for the salaries of such officers is paid from this vote.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. 3.15 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, as there are only live minutes left, I do not wish to proceed with my amendment, namely, amendment (ix), "That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $20,000 in respect of item (27) of subhead 36 therein." I wish to proceed with amendment (x) on the Order Paper, namely, "That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $30,000 in respect of subhead 50 therein.

The hon. Member is not moving amendments (viii)* and (ix)? *Amendment (viii) reads as follows : That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (14) of subhead 36 therein.

I am not moving them, Sir. Now I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $30,000 in respect of subhead 50 therein. "Rent on Quarters" is estimated to go down by $10,000 over last year's approved Estimate of $40,000, and it says there, in the little explanation, "Required for rental of six flats." It is a well-known fact that government quarters are not available to new local senior officers who have not already been occupying government quarters. It is also well-known that, as a result of Malayanisation, there are considerable numbers of vacant government bungalows. In fact, it was pointed out to me the other day that a particular bungalow along Mountbatten Road has been vacant for six months. I cannot understand why the Government should allow money to be spent in this way just to please officers who prefer to have convenient flats instead of government bungalows.

Sir, I think it would surprise this House to know that, far from having a surplus of quarters, we are going to be faced in 1958 with another shortage of quarters. At first sight, it does look queer that with Malayanisation, the quarters position is still difficult, but it is, Sir, I myself at first thought that the quarters position would be eased. It has been somewhat eased in the sense that the number of officers on the waiting list has gone down, but as I have pointed out, the quarters position will be difficult next year. The flats which we hope to rent will be placed in the common pool of quarters, which are administered by the Temporary Quarters Committee, which is run by my Ministry. That is how it comes into this part of the Estimates. A possible shortage of quarters will arise in 1958 because of the need to house military officers on contract who are brought out to train the Singapore Military Forces and the Singapore Infantry Regiment. We have also now to give consideration to quarters for locally recruited officers of our military forces. We have to cater for the Polytechnic staff and experts on loan from foreign countries under the Colombo Plan and U.N.O. programmes. I think we will have to recruit more doctors next year and we will have to provide quarters for them. It would surprise Members to know that we will not have enough of quarters and we do need these flats. The provision of $30,000 is only 75 per cent of that provided in 1957, and we hope that we will be able to house anything up to a dozen officers or experts, according to the quality of the quarters rented. In 1957, we had six flats but it is possible that we may be able to get more flats, depending on the quality of the quarters rented. I can assure the hon. Member that we have not put this amount in for nothing in the Estimates. The quarters position next year will be difficult, Sir.

Order. Time has elapsed. Question put, "That the sum to be allotted for Head 8 be reduced by $30,000 in respect of subhead 50 there in.,.

Division, Sir. The House divided: Ayes, 9; Noes, 18; Abstention, 1; Absent, 2; Paired, 2. Ayes. Noes. Abdul Hamid bin Ede, John. Haji Jumat. Goh Chew Chua. Braga, A. J. Goh Tong Liang. Chew Swee Kee. Jumabhoy, R. Hart, T. M. Lazarous, A. R. Jumabhoy, J. M. Lee Kuan Yew. Lim Cher Kheng. Lim Choon Mong. Lim, R. C. H. Soh Ghee Soon. Lim Yew Hock. Tan, William. Mak Pak Shee. Mohamed Sidik bin Haji Abdul Hamid. Absent. Nair, M. P. D. Ong Piah Teng. Ahmad bin Ibrahim. Seah Peng Chuan. Lim Ching Siong. Shanks, E. P. Stewart, S. T. Abstentions. Sutherland, G. A. P. Lee Choon Eng. Tan Theng Chiang. Thomas, Francis. Paired. Lim Koon Teck. Wong Foo Nam. Question on the amendment accordingly negatived. The sum of $8,206,770 for Head 8 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 9 -

Sir, I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 9 he reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead I therein. Here again I have chosen for discussion item (1) in the Budget. Sir, I have been speaking on this subject year after year. I have not yet understood why this "white elephant", which is mostly staffed by the expatriates, should be maintained at the expense of the public. I would like to ask whether there are any local-born officers in Divisions I and II-I see no such details in the Budget. Sir, on the Engineering Division we are spending $1,095,950. How many local-born trained in the technical side are in this division? Sir, another question I would like to ask is this: the total estimated expenditure is given as $3,687,830 with the remark, "Part recoverable from Federation of Malaya." Sir, in 1957 the amount was $3,591,100. What was the share received by us as indicated in the Remarks column? A further point, Sir. Out of the total estimated expenditure of $3,687,830, there is on the Revenue side an amount of $1,287,520. This leaves a balance of $2,400,310 in expenditure. From this also will be deducted what we receive from the Federation. I would like to know how much? There are many sides to this subject, Sir,In the past, the question has been whether the Government should run broadcasting, whether it should be a joint venture, or whether it should be a corporation. The reply received every year has been that the matter is under consideration. The life of the present Government is nearly ending and still we are in the same position. What is the decision? I would like to have the breakdown cost, as I requested, before I can go further on this subject. I hope the Financial Secretary will reply to this. 3.30 p.m.

Sir, with regard to the Member for Telok Ayer's point in connection with this Department, I would like to give him certain figures concerning the number of local-born officers in Division I. In the Directorate and Administration Division, the number of posts is three: the number of expatriate officers is two - one until April 1958 - and the number of Asian officers is one. In the Programme Division the number of posts is 14 of which seven are still vacant. The number of Asian officers is five, and the number of expatriate officers is two. In the Schools Division, the number of posts is eight: the number of vacant posts is three; the number of Asian officers is two; the number of expatriate officers is three - one until 1960 and two until 1961. In the Engineering Division the number of posts is ten: two are vacant; one Asian officer now on a scholarship will return from Australia in January 1958 and another Asian officer will return from the United Kingdom in 1961. The number of Asian officers is two, and the number of expatriate officers is six - one until 1961 and five until 1964. In the News Division, including the Special News Service, the number of posts is six: there is one vacant post; the number of Asian officers is three and the number of expatriates is two - one until May 1958 and the other until December 1958. Sir, I hope the hon. Member is satisfied with this question of local-born and expatriate officers in Radio Malaya. With regard to the revenue and expenditure of the Department, it being a Pan-Malayan Department, the expenditure on Personal Emoluments and Other Charges Annually Recurrent is apportionable between Singapore and the Federation of Malaya in the ratio of Broadcast Listeners' Licences in each territory. As the number of such licences in the Federation of Malaya is considerably higher than that in this colony, you will see, from Appendix H at page 375 of the Estimates, that the sum of $2,275,410 will be payable to Singapore in 1958. The revenue in 1958 will be as follows:- $ Amount due from the Federation of Malaya 2,275,410 Broadcast Listeners' licences, item 8, page17 1,250,000 Miscellaneous receipts, item 6, page 18 37,520 --------- Total $ 3,562,930 --------- As the Member for Telok Ayer has pointed out, the total expenditure of the Department as shown in page 70 of the 1958 Estimates is $3,687,830. The difference then is an estimated sum of $ 124,900 only. Sir, the Member for Telok Ayer has also said that year after year he has asked whether Radio Malaya should be a government department or a public corporation and the reply he has always received is that the question is under consideration. Sir, I am afraid that to the question what is the future fate of Radio Malaya, the answer is still the same this year, and that is, it is under consideration because it is a Pan Malayan Department and its future is engaging the attention of the Governments of the Federation and Singapore. Hon. Members will recall that in the Federal Council meeting on the 4th of this month, His Majesty the Yang di-Pertuan Agong in his speech said that the Government of the Federation of Malaya proposed to examine the existing arrangements in the broadcasting service with a view to ensuring complete control over future policy and eventually to arrange for the Federation to have its own broadcasting service. As I said, this matter is being given consideration and I cannot say anything except to repeat again that the question of Radio Malaya is still under consideration.

: Mr Speaker, Sir, speaking on the appointments held by expatriates and Asians, I notice on page 64, item 24, in the Programme Division, the creation of a new post called the Controller of Programmes. Now here is the reason why this post is created - I refer to page 444 of the Estimates: "A new post of Controller of Programmes has been created so that adequate supervision can be given to the nine sections in the Programme Division (English Programmes, Chinese Programmes, Indian Programmes, Malay Programmes, Record Library, Reference Library, Script Traffic, Production Assistant's Office and Radio Orchestra). The duties of a Controller of Programmes have in the past been undertaken by the Deputy Director, who as a result was unable to carry out his normal duties. It is also necessary to have an upper timescale post in this Division of the Department to give parity with other Divisions, e.g.. News Division, Schools Division, Engineering Division." This job was normally carried out by the Deputy Director and it appears now that, according to the Government, the Deputy Director cannot carry out the duties of this post. Yet I see that the appointment of Principal Administrative Officer on page 63 has been abolished. Now why create a post here and then abolish a post there? Is the Deputy Director so busy that he cannot manage just merely to supervise, as clearly stated in the reason given above? His work is just to supervise and, apart from his normal duties, is it not possible for him to supervise the work of the Programme Division? Again, Sir, on this question of appointments on page 64, let us compare item (25) with items (27) and (28). In item (25) we have an English Programme Supervisor whose salary scale is $960-35A-1,240. In items (27) and (28) we have the Chinese and Indian Programme Supervisors whose salary is 5560: 630: 660: 690-30A-930/bar/960-35A-1,240. Why should there be a disparity between the English Programme Supervisor and the Chinese and Indian Programme Supervisors? Is it because of the word "English" that the English Programme Supervisor carries a higher salary than the Chinese and Indian Programme Supervisors? Or is it because this post-English Programme Supervisor - is held by an expatriate officer? I wonder if the Chief Secretary can tell us whether the post of Controller of Programmes is to be filled by an expatriate officer and who will be appointed to the three Programme Supervisor appointments.

Sir, a new post of Controller of Programmes is required. His responsibility is to supervise the nine sections which the Member for Queenstown mentioned, and his duties, which are of course full-time, have hitherto been undertaken by the Deputy Director who, as a result, has not been available for normal Deputy Director duties. With the abolition of the post of Principal Administrative Officer, the Deputy Director will take over some of the functions of that post. That is the reason why the post of Principal Administrative Officer was abolished. The Deputy Director takes over his post and is in turn relieved of responsibility for supervision of the Programme Division which will be undertaken by the Controller of Programmes. In regard to the other point raised by the Member for Queenstown, I certainly do not agree with his reason for the apparent difference in the salary scale - it is only a question of the segment. The difference is not because of the fact that the post is filled by an expatriate or that the word "English" has magic attached to it!

Mr Speaker, I am not at all satisfied with the reply given by the Hon. the Chief Secretary. Sir, this is a department which, if properly run, should earn revenue instead of being a liability on the taxpayer. It is highly unsatisfactory, Sir, that the Coalition Government has up to now not been able to come to any decision on the matter of policy, whether the Broadcasting Department should be a corporation or whether it should be run by the Government, and on what basis. I am also very unhappy to see in the Engineering Division seven expatriates in office and one Asian who, I believe, is to return from training overseas. Now this state of affairs is very sad.

On a point of clarification, Sir, I said that of ten posts in the Engineering Division two are vacant posts, and of these two vacant posts, one of them is being held against an Asian officer on scholarship to Australia and there is another Asian now in the United Kingdom. There are at present two Asian officers occupying two of the eight posts in the Engineering Division.

In other words, am I to understand that there are six expatriates there?

That is correct.

Mr Speaker, Sir, my question was centred more on whether expatriates or Asians will fill the four appointments which I have mentioned, that is, the Controller of Programmes, the English Programme Supervisor, the Chinese Programme Supervisor and the Indian Programme Supervisor.

Mr Speaker, Sir, that would be a matter for the Public Service Commission.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I move. That the sum to be allotted for Head 9 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (39) of subhead I therein. Sir, item (39) says a sum of $13,640 is to be spent on a Programme Organiser, Qualified Education Officer, and an Unqualified Education Officer. Sir, if I may take also item (40) we have again a repetition of Unqualified Education Officer. I do not know what this signifies. We have heard a lot of derogatory remarks made about the schools broadcasts. Nobody thinks it is worth while carrying on with them. I would like to know what is the meaning of an Unqualified Education Officer and why he should be getting more than a Qualified Education Officer, as appears on page 229, Head 45-Education-subhead 1 item (41) . I find there against Education Officer for Men, Honours Degree, the salary scale starts at $445 and ends at $920. And these Unqualified Education Officers who have not made a great success of Radio Malaya broadcasts get $560 up to $1,240. Are such people to be paid more because they do less damage to children over the radio than in actual person?

The Question is, "That the sum to be allotted for Head 9 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (39) of subhead 1 therein." Discussion may proceed on the next amendment- amendment (iii), namely: That the sum to be allotted for Head 9 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (40) of subhead 1 therein.

Sir, I am afraid I can, not give the details of these two items.

You agree it is very strange?

Order.

These are established posts. They are not new posts. They have been in the Estimates even from before. What I can say is that the continuance of the existing arrangements, under which the Department of Broadcasting broadcasts to schools, is a matter for discussion between the competent Ministries and is also tied up with the overall question of the future of the Pan-Malayan nature of this Department. I cannot give offhand the details of this situation.

Do I understand from the reply of the Hon. the Chief Secretary that it is the hope, if not the intention, of the Government to palm off these Unqualified Education Officers in the broadcasting section to the Federation side when the split takes place?

I am afraid I cannot give an answer to that question.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Sir, I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 9 he reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 11 therein.

The hon. Member is not moving amendment (iii) ?

Sir, I am not moving it. There is barely time to do this amendment. Mr Speaker, Sir, the sum that has been budgeted for canned programmes is estimated to go up by $23,200 in 1958. I fully understand the desirability of having good canned programmes from whatever part of the world we can get them. It does, however, seem to me illogical that we should be spending more and more on staff in order to have original programmes and yet instead of having these original programmes take the place of the canned programmes, we are paying more for canned programmes. Obviously all the new staff that we are hoping to recruit cannot be of much use because canned programmes will be occupying more of the time.

Sir, I appreciate what the Member for Tanjong Pagar has said, but I am sure he must admit that we have to go on with canned programmes also. These copyright fees are payable to the International Federation of Pornographic Industry in respect of-

"Pornographic"! [Interruption.]

I beg your pardon, Sir! it is the International Federation of Phonographic Industry, and the copyright fees are payable to them in respect of gramophone records played or dubbed by all stations of Radio Malaya and the performing rights in respect of plays, music, and so forth broadcast in both territories. In effect, this vote covers all copyright fees payable by the two Governments. The explanation for the $23,000 odd extra this year is that an additional sum of $4,500 is required for the payment of copyright on Malay literature, drama and publications of various kinds used for broadcasting. Hitherto Malayan authors have not been protected by the copyright laws, but we wish that they will shortly become so.

Order. Time has elapsed.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. The sum of $3,687,830 for Head 9 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 10 - The sum of $388,760 for Head 10 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 11-

Mr Speaker, Sir, I move, That the sum to be allotted for Head 11 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 4 therein. Sir, I have again chosen item (1) under this head for discussion of the whole subject. Sir, we see in the Budget "Royal Malayan Navy", "Malayan Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve", "Singapore Military Forces", "Singapore Infantry Regiment", "Malayan Auxiliary Air Force", etc, costing us so many million dollars. Sir, when the Royal Malayan Navy was created, our constitutional position was quite different. Now we have a neighbour which is an independent country. Singapore has very little to look after and very little to fight for. Is it necessary at all to spend so much money on naval establishments? If we are, spending, for whose benefit are we spending, and for which war are we spending? Further, Sir, can we go on spending on such items when we ourselves as a small colony would be quite helpless? The last war has already shown us what we should do [Interruption.] Yes, you people left the local people in the lurch and we had to suffer.

Some local chaps scooted!

What I discovered at that time was that we were helpless against air attack. We were never attacked from the sea side. Singapore is surrounded by small islands and we can prevent the enemy from entering by laying mines, etc. If my memory serves, the enemy never tried to attack Singapore from the sea. In the conditions prevailing at present in the world, is it worth while to go on spending millions and millions on a project which may be quite useless, having regard to the recent developments of sputniks and so many other things? Can we not utilise this money for the betterment of our own people by providing health and medical services, and education and so on? On the other hand, Sir, we are also spending a lot on military forces. Why so much? Are we to fight any one? Will we be able to resist anyone? What actually is wanted is the means whereby we can secure internal control and help the police. Yes, I do agree that our youngsters must take up military service. It will be of use in an emergency and it will help them to keep fit. But do we want so many battalions and should we waste so much money on army equipment and training? After all, whom are we paying to train? Expatriates? Of course, we have got to do this because we have not got our own trained personnel. Sir, therefore, I would suggest that considerable economy can be effected under this head.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this amendment wholeheartedly. I still remember during the debate on the Second Reading the reply of the Hon. the Chief Secretary to my suggestion that we scrap entirely defence, and he gave a very humorous example that we could not refuse to buy an umbrella although the rain had not come yet. I would like to take this opportunity to ask him whether this umbrella is made of paper, silk or nylon, or from which direction the rain is coming. Certainly I have to agree with the Member for Telok Ayer that in this sputnik age local defence seems to be ridiculous, especially on a small island like ours. Because we are now marching towards independence and in every independent country it must have everything, including an army, power, I wish-

Order. Moment of interruption. Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the Assembly.

Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made progress on the Appropriation Bill and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Tomorrow it will be.

Resolved, "That the Assembly do now adjourn." - [The Chief Minister]. Adjourned accordingly at two minutes past Four o'clock p.m.

Monday, 16th December, 1957

asked the Minister for Commerce and Industry whether he will supply the following information regarding prawn ponds in the Colony of Singapore:-

To ask the Chief Secretary whether he is aware of the possibility of persons holding temporary identity cards being registered as citizens of Singapore: to state whether a person, after having been registered as a citizen of Singapore, is entitled to be issued with a British passport; and whether he will make a statement." Pursuant to Standing Order 16 (2), the Chief Secretary supplied the following answer:- "(a) There is no such thing as a temporary identity card, but where a person is in Singapore only by authority of a limited immigration pass or permit the period of validity of such pass or perrmt is for administrative convenience endorsed on the identity card. It is unlikely that except in very unusual circumstances a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or of the Republic of India under the recent direction) would be allowed to remain here on a temporary immigration pass or permit long enough to meet the residential qualification for citizenship; (b) At present, registration as a citizen of Singapore does not alter a person's nationality or eligibility for a British passport. When the British Nationality Act, 1948, is amended as mentioned in the Report of the Singapore Constitutional Conference published as Sessional Paper Misc. No. 2 of 1957, consideration will be given to the question of eligibility for passports and if necessary, a statement will be made at that time." The following question for Oral Answer stood on the Order Paper of 16th December, 1957:-

To ask the Minister for Local Government, Lands and Housing whether he will consider amending the Rent Control Ordinance with a view to compelling private landlords to grant ex-gratia compensation to, or provide alternative accommodation for, evicted tenants of their houses or land." Pursuant to Standing Order 16 (2), the Minister for Local Government, Lands and Housing supplied the following answer:- "No. Sir, If the compensation is to be ex graria, there cannot be any compulsion."