Hansard, 1974-03-21

Under the provisions of clause 2 (d) of Article 30 of the Constitution of Singapore, I have granted permission to the following Member to be or to remain absent from sittings of Parliament (or any Committee of Parliament to which he has been appointed) for the period stated:- Mr S. Rajaratnam (Kampung Glam), Minister for Foreign Affairs - from 23rd to 27th March, 1974. YEOH GHIM SENG Speaker, Parliament of Singapore

asked the Minister for Law and National Development if he will ascertain from the Housing and Development Board the number of outstanding applications for transfer of flats, as at the latest convenient date, of applicants whose family membership consists of (i) 5 to 7 persons; (ii) 8 to 10 persons; and (iii) 11 or more persons; and against these family membership groupings, the number of applicants who have waited for one year and under; two years; three years; and four years and over.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the information requested for by the Member for Mountbatten is as follows: Waiting Period of No, of families consisting of Transfer of Flats 5-7 8-10 11 or more Persons Persons Persons (a)Less than 1 year 358 137 20 (b)Between 1 to 2 years 365 46 3 (c)Between 2 to 3 years 187 8 30 (d)Between 3 to 4 years 371 75 7 (e)More than 4 years 390 178 60 473 of the 628 applications which are in the 4-years or more waiting period have been offered alternative accommodation at least once, while some have been offered flats more than once. The remaining cases have not been considered because of their lower priority, such as requests for transfer to a similar type of flats or because of unsuitable locality or trouble with neighbours.

Mr Speaker, Sir, is the Minister aware of the fact that the applications for transfer to larger accommodation come mainly from one-room flat dwellers who cannot afford to buy flats under the home ownership scheme? Will the Minister urge the Housing and Development Board to speed up the processing of these applications? With particular reference to those living in my constituency, will the Minister request the Housing Board not to reserve all the casual vacant flats for resettlement purposes but to release some of these vacant flats, wherever possible, for my constituents who are on the waiting list? Sir, most of these constituents have lived in my constituency for more than a decade and they prefer to be transferred within the estate.

Sir, after that long speech by the Member, I do not get what the question is. If it is a question of expediting the processing of applications, this can be done. But the number of flats are limited and the number of applications are many. As for the Member's own estate, particularly Old Kallang Airport estate and the Guillemard Road estate, I have details of outstanding applications for transfer. The number of families consisting of 5-7 persons in these estates who waited for more than four years are about 33; families of 8-10 persons who waited for more than four years number only two; and the number of families consisting of 11 or more persons who had to wait for more than a year does not exist. In fact, only two families of such a number have waited for less than a year. Most of the flats vacated existing tenants in the two estates that I have referred to have been allocated, in fact, to transfer-applicants from these estates. Of the 46 units vacated in 1973, 34 units were allocated to transfer cases in respect of residents from these two estates. Only two flats were allocated to resettlement cases and the remaining flats to public applicants and fire victims from elsewhere. In fact, I do not know what the Member of Parliament is grumbling about.

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [4th Allotted Day]. Resumption of Debate on Question (20th March, 1974), "That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1004.". - [Mr Teong Eng Siong].

2.35 p.m. Head JA - Question again proposed.

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the fact that the Minister is absent and I have something to discuss with him, I do not know what to do. Perhaps when he comes in, I may raise my question. But for now, I want to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, perhaps after that little confusion I may be allowed to move my amendment. Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AC 1201. Sir, I am not against anti-smoking. This amendment is moved in order to seek clarification only. The Anti-Smoking Advertisement Unit has an appropriation of about $46,000 for the financial year 1974. What does this Unit do, Sir? As far as I know, occasionally we see frightening anti-smoking advertisements on TV and anti-smoking posters on notice boards. Other than this, is this Unit responsible for anything else? If this is all that they do, then could not this work be done by the Publicity Division of the Ministry of Culture, which has an appropriation of about $2 million? In these days of manpower shortage, to tie up one Division II officer and five Division III officers in this little Anti-Smoking Unit is a luxury that we can ill-afford.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the primary function of the Unit is to watch the mass media to ensure that no cigarette advertisements are being publicised contrary to the law. Other duties of the Anti-Smoking Unit include routine and systematic checks for cigarette advertisements in hotels, cinemas, theatres, bars, restaurants, markets, villages, etc; dealing with applications for exemption under the Act and, where exemptions have been granted, to check on the advertisements, be they on vehicles, printed matter or signboards; and vetting imported cigarette advertisement materials. So far the work has been satisfactory and there is very little or no infringement of the law, as most of the newspapers and other publications know these restrictions. We have already done the job. I quite agree with the Member that it is high time we abolished this Unit, and the staff absorbed into the administration unit of the Ministry of Culture, or the Publicity Division, as he has suggested.

What else can I do, Sir, but to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BA 1109. Sir, what sort of censorship is imposed on the presentation of commercial advertisements over TV Singapore? Some advertisements show youths with long hair romping around speaking of the virtues of a cough mixture. Surely advertisements of this nature could have been done away with. Even in the press some advertisements with dubious claims are still being published. Often the victims are women. For example, there is an advertisement that claims to reduce a person's weight in minutes. The people who answered these advertisements claimed that they have been swindled, as the services provided were not in accord with what these advertisements claimed. Again, there was another advertisement showing a quack doctor recommending a certain drug for certain cures. This is mere propaganda. An advertisement of this nature is misleading and the advertiser is only interested in swindling people of their honest earnings.

Sir, the vote on this subhead is to be allocated for the Head of the Publicity Division. The Publicity Division of the Ministry of Culture has no control over TV or newspaper advertisements. However, as for the advertisements on TV, the Broadcasting Department sees to it that every TV commercial submitted to the Department for use is subjected to two separate censorship viewings, first, by the Commercial Division and, second, by a panel of viewers under the charge of the film organiser. In both these areas, strict control is exercised to ensure that the content of the commercial, both radio and visual, adheres strictly to RTS programme code and copy policy. Many commercials depicting persons with long hair have been rejected, although these entail a loss of revenue. From January 1973 to date, the Department has rejected 29 filmlets on this ground. The corresponding figure in respect of slides is four. My officials in the Broadcasting Department are unable to recall any commercial showing youths with long hair romping round extolling the virtues of a cough mixture. Such a commercial would not have been allowed for telecast. 2.45 p.m. As for the content of advertisements inserted in the press, my Ministry does not censor them. If the public is cheated by dishonest advertisements, I think the matter should more appropriately be dealt with by the Police, and reports made to them. However, if my Ministry finds that any particular advertisement appearing in the newspapers is morally objectionable, my Ministry will advise the newspaper concerned to stop carrying such advertisements further. For the control of advertisements relating to medical matters, this function is also outside the purview of my Ministry. Such matters are governed by the Medicines (Advertisement and Sale) Act which is administered by the Ministry of Health. For advertisements over TV in which medical claims are made in respect of certain drugs and cures, the Broadcasting Department insists on some form of supporting evidence or material. For example, if a claim is made in a commercial that a certain drug is recommended by doctors, then the Department of Broadcasting requires the advertiser to substantiate that such recommendations have been actually made by doctors. If there is any doubt regarding such claims, then the Department of Broadcasting will refer the matter to the Ministry of Health.

Sir, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Culture said that the Publicity Division does not have any control over advertisements. What then is the duty of the Publicity Division? And are advertisements controlled by the Ministry of Culture or some other Ministry? Is the Publicity Division controlled by the Ministry of Culture or some other Ministry? I do not know why the Parliamentary Secretary keeps on mentioning that that is not under his jurisdiction. I do not understand. Mr Speaker, Sir, 1 want my questions answered.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary can explain again.

Sir, I thought I have already answered the question of TV commercials. As I said, TV commercials do not come under the Publicity Division. It comes under the Broadcasting Department of the Ministry of Culture. I have already explained that because of this, other matters which are not related to the Ministry of Culture, for instance, this question of medicines or quack doctors and whatnots, come under different Ministries. I hope the Member for Anson is satisfied with this explanation.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I cannot get a correct answer from the Parliamentary Secretary. The Minister for Culture is supposed to be the person who approves these advertisements. Right or wrong, it must be referred to the Ministry concerned before approval is given. Now, is not the Broadcasting Department under the Ministry of Culture? Therefore, the Ministry should take action. But he has said that this matter comes under Broadcasting. Broadcasting - which department, which Ministry? Ministry of Culture, is it not? So why is he confusing the issue? He should not avoid my question, but give a straight answer.

Do you want him to explain again?

Yes.

By all means. Haji Sha'ari Tadin.

Mr Speaker, Sir, as I said earlier, the Publicity Division of the Ministry of Culture has no control over newspaper advertisements. I thought I have made that clear. Of course, if anybody or any reader has been cheated through newspaper advertisements, he can make a report to the Police. And following that, the Police will have to take action. We have the Film Censorship Board, which has the control over advertisements on films, but it has no control over advertisements in the newspapers.

That is an unsatisfactory reply. The Broadcasting Department comes under the Ministry of Culture. Why is he referring to Broadcasting? His Ministry is the responsible Ministry to take any action. But why did he say that the Publicity Division does not control Broadcasting but the Minister for Culture controls the Broadcasting Department? I am very sorry for this barrage of questions. However, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

(In Malay): Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CA 1107*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy) Mr Speaker, Sir, inflation which is prevailing now throughout the world, including Singapore, is causing prices to rise, and rise still higher from day to day. Therefore, I think it is inappropriate for the Minister for Culture to spend $10.2 million to implement the plan for colour TV in Singapore. The sum to be allocated can be better used by other Ministries for projects that are more beneficial to the people of Singapore. Sir, workers in the low-income group are still hoping for a sympathetic gesture from the Government by giving them a higher salary, so that they can meet the rising cost of living, as prices are very high now. Therefore, it would be better for the sum of $10.2 million to be channelled elsewhere, so that people in the low-income group can get more. The Minister himself and the Prime Minister have suggested to the people not to spend money unnecessarily. But when the Ministry of Culture implements TV programmes in colour, people will buy colour television sets. Although the Ministry does not encourage people to buy colour sets, nevertheless the people will be inclined and influenced into buying colour sets on instalment basis. And by paying in instalments, the price will definitely be higher, and this will further affect their cost of living, making it more difficult for them. Therefore, I think it would be better for the Ministry of Culture to postpone the introduction of colour television to next year or to some other appropriate time, when inflation has subsided and when economic conditions in Singapore have improved.

Sir, the standard of broadcasting is quite poor. Some of the announcers swallow their words. I believe the reason is that broadcasters are chosen from their paper qualifications rather than their broadcasting abilities. This should not be the case. Language proficiency is very important. It does not take a very highly qualified person to be announcers. Therefore, I suggest that fluency and proficiency in the language medium should be considered when selecting candidates for the post. If not, they should be sent for training. Why is the standard of locally produced programmes so poor? Is it because our producers are not properly trained? Most of our programmes are imported since we lack expertise in producing scripts. Why we do not get foreign experts to train our people? I also heard that the payments made to the artistes are very low, but if foreigners come, they pay more money. If an artiste is to sing just a song over TV, he or she has to go through a number of auditions, before the final scene is shot. Surely something could be done about this. After all the fuss, the artiste is paid a miserable mite. How is it that the same faces appear again and again on our local TV programmes? We cannot get other persons -only those persons! Something is definitely wrong somewhere. What efforts are being made to introduce new blood of screen artistes? Is there a clique system in the auditioning section? Probably the system of auditioning artistes has to be reviewed to give more people a chance to come forward to participate. Most of the programmes in the English Section are imported ones. Even the plays are BBC-produced. Surely with a large English-speaking population we should be able to produce some plays over TV and Radio. There are some local theatrical groups whose performances are good. Why not televise them and thereby encourage them? How successful has the Broadcasting Department been in attracting people to contribute songs and drama with local colour, or have the miserable prizes it offers not brought in any contributions? Sometime ago, one could view TV documentaries quite often. Documentaries, as one knows, have a very great educational value and for Singapore in particular, where the population is young, these documentaries will enhance the concepts of this world. It is time RTS introduced more documentaries rather than pop singers who were idols sometime ago. Sir, in the last Budget session, I pointed out the wrong pronunciation of the word "million" by the Tamil announcers. The Tamil language is very old. But the Tamil announcers do not seem to know the word "million" in Tamil. They use the English word "million". Last year, I mentioned about this and I told them not to use "million". If they speak Tamil, use purely the Tamil words. Why must they mix English and Tamil together? If there is no such word in the Tamil language, then there is no harm. But there is a word for "million" in Tamil. Up to-date no effort has been made to rectify this error. Why is this so? When a Member of Parliament shouts out his complaints here, is that the end of the matter, closed up and finished? If so, what is the use of talking, talking, and talking again? 3.00 p.m.

Sir, I share the sentiments expressed by the Member for Kampung Kembangan. However, I am most concerned as to whether it is most appropriate to introduce colour television at the present time. I believe there are approximately 250,000 black and white TV sets in use at the moment. With the introduction of colour TV, it is expected that a large number of people, as has been pointed out earlier on, would want to switch from black and white to colour TV I have made a very quick calculation. Assuming that only 25 per cent of the people want colour television, it would mean a total expenditure of approximately $62 million, based on $1,000 per set which is the figure given to me by the Minister for Culture. If everybody wants to change over to colour, the total expenditure would come to $250 million. As most television sets are imported, or even if they are assembled here, most of the parts would still have to come from abroad, and the total spending of the public would be a drain on our hard-earned foreign exchange. Sir, as pointed out earlier on, while we are urging people on the one hand to tighten their belts and to cut down on personal spending and save, on the other hand, it would appear that we are acting against our own policy. This is a glaring example of the occasional lack of consistency in the implementation of Government policies, suggesting that the left hand often does not know what the right hand is doing. Government departments are not the only guilty parties in this respect. State-owned enterprises are much worse. I am sure Members' attention has been drawn in recent weeks to huge advertising spaces taken up by the Singapore Airlines enticing people to take their holidays abroad. This is at a time when the nation is faced with an extra oil deal of some $200 million, as pointed out by the Minister for Finance. Every effort should be made to conserve our hard-earned foreign exchange, rather than to squander it away on non-essentials which would only affect our balance of payments position.

Mr Speaker, Sir, after listening to the Member for Jalan Kayu and his calculations, I am sure that he did not take into consideration what the Ministry of Culture has been thinking of. Somehow or other, knowing our Finance Minister and the Minister for Culture, I have no doubt that they are thinking of increasing the rates for TV licences. That may also add to the unnecessary spending. When the Minister or his Parliamentary Secretary gives an answer to this subhead, I would be happy if he could let me know whether or not there is any intention to increase the TV licence charges when colour TV is introduced.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I also support the Member for Kampung Kembangan and the Member for Jalan Kayu. I feel that colour TV should not be introduced into Singapore until such time when the populace - I am talking about the lower income group - and the various community centres are able to afford installing such television sets. In addition to that, there is a technical point too. At the present moment, colour TV does not cover the whole spectrum. Many countries in the world, like Japan and the United States of America, are going to step up development to have colour TV that would cover the whole spectrum. This would most certainly be an advantage because at the present moment colours in real life are not faithfully reproduced on colour TV.

Mr Speaker, Sir, last year when we were discussing colour television, there was an overwhelming demand for colour television. The time was good then and nobody had expected that we were going to have the oil crisis, and so on. Now suddenly everybody is complaining that it would be extravagant to spend money on colour television. However, I believe that if the viewer does not want a colour set, he can still receive black and white programmes.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I share the sentiments expressed by the Member for Jalan Kayu over the need to be thrifty. But, as I have pointed out in the Budget debate on Friday, people are beginning to wonder whether it is now worthwhile to save. As I have said, the new-found philosophy seems to be "spend and enjoy now, die later", simply because of the depreciation of the real value of money. In Singapore, whether it is this year, next year or ten years later, we must keep up with the times. We must have colour television. It is better to have it now, because if a colour television set costs $1,000 today I think it would probably cost $1,500 in two years' time.

It may be in six months' time.

Or in six months' time, and this would be a further drain on our foreign exchange as we have to pay more for the import of colour TV sets. I think colour television is a necessary form of entertainment. It is much more attractive than black and white. It is one way of keeping the people at home so that they would not waste their money seeking entertainment outside their homes.

Mr Speaker, Sir, touching on the topic of colour television, I am amazed by the rather spontaneous reactions that we hear today in Parliament against the introduction of colour television. As the Member for Bras Basah rightly pointed out, last year there was unanimous applause for the introduction of colour television and this year a sudden reverse reaction, I hesitate really to say that we should proceed with colour television because, to my mind, there must surely be very good reasons behind the Ministry of Culture's intention to introduce colour television. But we are faced with the problem of international inflation and the rise in oil prices, and this should certainly be a new factor in our financial calculations. I therefore do not wish to goad the Minister for Culture head-on to the introduction of colour television. At the same time, I think it is appropriate for the Ministry to sit down and have a serious calculation, working forwards and backwards, to find out if in fact we should proceed with colour television. And if it is convinced that it is necessary then we carry on. The Member for Moulmein has correctly pointed out that introducing colour television in two years' time might mean a lot more money. We can foresee that if colour television were not introduced by that time, some Backbenchers or some Members on the Government side might come up and say, "Look, two years ago you were against it."

Sir, I think I ought to clarify myself. When I spoke against colour television, I am not against having colour television as such, but it is a question of timing. Take our financial policy, for instance. Last year we encouraged people to spend because times were good. But now because of inflation and other factors, as part and parcel of our anti-inflation measures, the Monetary Authority of Singapore and the Ministry of Finance have introduced a whole series of credit squeeze measures. As we all know, the credit squeeze is on. I am not saying that we must not have colour TV. The fact that there was a demand last year and now we are suggesting that there should be a changed attitude is totally immaterial to the point I am trying to make, i.e, the consistency of Government policy. The policy and the implementation thereof should be consistent. That is the main point I am trying to emphasise.

Mr Speaker, Sir, before answering the Member for Kampung Kembangan and other Members who have suggested that the Government delay the introduction of colour TV in view of the present inflation and high prices which may cause a social burden to our people, let me answer the question by the Member for Sembawang first, as the Deputy Speaker had ruled yesterday that the Member's question could be answered together with the others in respect of subhead CA 1107, for which there is an amendment. The Member for Sembawang had asked my Minister yesterday when colour TV would be ready. And before I could give an answer, some Members had also, in fact, dwelt on the subject. Television Singapore will be radiating colour TV Trade and Test Transmissions consisting of Test Pattern, slides and films as from 2nd May, 1974. These transmissions will be radiated on: Channel 5: Weekdays from 10 a.m, to 12 noon and 2 p.m, to 3 p.m. Saturdays from 10 a.m, to 12 noon. Channel 8: Weekdays in between ETV programme slots (Test Pattern only) Saturdays, Sundays and Public Holidays from 2 p.m, to 3 p.m. A pilot colour TV service will be inaugurated in August, 1974. Film programmes from overseas and local documentary films will be scheduled for telecast on both channels during normal transmission hours. The number of such programmes in colour will be limited to a duration of one to two hours a day. Equipment orders for studio and outside broadcast productions have already been placed, and an extension to the pilot service will be effected when these equipment are delivered and installed. Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, coming back to the suggestion by the Member for Kampung Kembangan and also other Members that Government delay the introduction of colour TV, which Members have also expressed concern, may I be allowed, Sir, to inform Members that we cannot accede to their request because, as Members will recollect, in January, 1972, Government approved the introduction of colour TV. The whole project costs over $20 million over a period of four years. This House has accordingly voted $2.9 million last year for the project. Since then, a number of tenders have been called for the purchase of equipment. Our present black and white television service was inaugurated in February, 1963. This means that most of the equipment at our TV station is over 10 years old, and is due for replacement due to usage and fair wear and tear It would, therefore, be economically sound at this stage when replacing the equipment to introduce colour television. Moreover, if we were to defer this project, Singapore will be amongst the last of the South-east Asian countries to further develop its television service. Thailand and the Philippines introduced colour television a couple of years ago. 3.15 p.m. If we were to abandon the project at this juncture, it would also mean that we would not be able to fully utilise some of the equipment which we ordered and which was delivered before the energy crisis. In this respect, I would like to thank the Members for Kim Seng, Bras Basah and Moulmein who have expressed their support on the introduction of colour TV. We do not know when the energy crisis will be over, although the Arab countries have already lifted the oil embargo to the United States. And if we were to introduce colour TV three or four years later, then we may have to pay a very much higher price. By that time the cost of equipment would have gone up and we would have to pay more for what we are getting now. When we introduce colour TV later this year, we will telecast only overseas film programmes and some local documentary films in colour for about one to two hours daily. Local studio and outside broadcast productions in colour will he telecast next year when the necessary equipment have been delivered and installed. The plan, in other words, is to "inject" colour programmes into the normal service on Channels 5 and 8 in planned stages. This is because the technical facilities both at our TV Studio Centre and Transmitting Station are required for use daily whilst new colour equipment is being installed. TV viewers would still be able to watch colour programmes on their black and white receivers though the pictures will be in black and white. They, therefore, need not involve themselves in extra expenditure in obtaining colour sets. It is also my Ministry's intention to advise the People's Association to install colour TV sets in the community centres so that the public at large can, if they wish, view colour programmes in colour. I come now to the question raised by the Member for Anson. He says that the broadcasting programme is poor and also that too much emphasis has been placed on paper qualification and not on talent. A minimum standard of educational qualification has to be set in any recruitment exercise. In the case of announcers, the minimum qualification is a School Certificate or its equivalent. An announcer does not only announce. His other duties include the writing of announcements for music programmes and compiling of records or of programmes produced in our studios. He also has to draft the programme summaries at least twice in a day's transmission. He is called upon to draft emergency announcements as well. Depending on his versatility, an announcer also interviews, reads the news and comperes variety shows. Versatility, it might be stated here, is a very necessary quality in RTS. In any recruitment exercise for announcers, a voice test is set for all who have applied and who have the minimum paper qualification. The voice test consists of reading simple announcements for music programmes, public service announcements, commercials and a short news bulletin. Language fluency and proficiency are essentials for the passing of the voice test. Only those who pass the voice test are invited to sit for a written test. The written test consists of questions on basic general knowledge, current affairs, art and culture, and the drafting of simple announcements in view of the duties of announcers which I have just outlined. Persons with the potentialities of a good announcer are not easy to find. For instance, in the last recruitment exercise held in April last year for the English and the Chinese streams, the number of applicants was 278 for English and 479 for Chinese. Only five applicants from the 278 and three from the 479 were found to be suitable. Out of the five for the English stream, only two eventually joined RTS. As regards the standard of locally-produced programmes, it depends not only on the calibre of producers but also on the budget allowed for a production and on the talents that one can be found for production. Within these limitations, RTS producers have to do their best by way of presentation and production. All producers who join RTS are given in-service training. Until recently RTS had two BBC consultants to train its staff, one for radio and another for TV programmes. Their services were made possible through the Colombo Plan Technical Assistance Scheme. Training has always been in-service or on-the-job and the trainers are senior staff members who have to perform many other duties as well. Within these limitations, however, RTS does its best to provide training opportunities for its staff. The Member also raised the question on the payment of fees to artistes. The very fact that an artiste has, first of all, to be auditioned and to turn up for at least one rehearsal in the studio, apart from a pre-recording session in the case of some variety shows and finally to be present for recording the programme, is an indication that RTS producers do their best to be professional in their productions. Any station in the world which sets a high standard for itself regards these tests as a necessary part of production and not a fuss. If the fee is deemed miserable, it is another issue. RTS can only pay the fee that is stipulated in an approved schedule of fees and can only spend within the budget that it is given. It is a fact that very often it has to make the coat smaller than it need be because of the size of the cloth. Talents of a high standard are still relatively limited in number in Singapore, but no one is barred from any audition. Even when there are no such contests as talentime, RTS welcomes anyone who feels he has some talent, in terms of contributing to its programmes, to write in for an audition whether it be for variety shows, dramas, comic sketches, magazine items, etc. The Member also mentioned that most of the radio programmes are imported ones. To say that most of the programmes being broadcast on radio are imported is not true. The overwhelming majority are in fact produced by our own staff locally. These comprise magazine programmes of various types for youths, workers, women, sports and musical programmes of every description. Feature programmes are also produced locally. It is true, however, that the plays broadcast in the English service are mainly BBC-produced because they have proved to be among the best available. RTS has attempted to produce local plays in English but they have not proved successful. Two drama writing competitions have been held but a good number of the scripts of plays received had stories similar to those already seen on TV. English-speaking stage groups are very few in number and when they stage plays, these are overwhelmingly plays and not locally written. The Member for Anson also raised a question on the use of the word "million" by Tamil announcers. The use of the word "million" was adopted in January 1972 after consultation with the Ministry of Education's Research and Statistics Division. The Tamil phrase for "one million" previously used was pathu lak sham. This is, however, not easily comprehended by the younger generation as in the Tamil schools in Singapore, where the word "million" is now extensively used.

(In Malay): Sir, on the explanation given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Culture, I would like to have his assurance, or preferably from the Minister for Culture who has just arrived, that with the introduction of colour TV, the licence fees for black and white TV sets will not be increased. This point was also mentioned by the Member for Telok Blangah. If I am not mistaken, Sir, a few years ago in this Chamber, the Prime Minister said that the increase in the number of cars, motorcycles and scooters registered from month to month is related to the economic progress of Singapore. But in the last few days, we have been debating on the problem of reducing the number of private cars by increasing taxes and the prices of petrol. I would like to have the Minister's assurance that with the introduction of colour TV, the licence fee for black and white TV sets will not be increased and will remain at $36 as at present.

Sir, I cannot give the Member the assurance that there will not be any increase in the licence fee either for black and white or colour TV sets because this is tied down to the cost of production. It is too early to anticipate that.

Sir, I wish to raise one small point of clarification. When the Parliamentary Secretary gave his explanation to the points raised, he gave me the impression that one of the main reasons that influenced us to go into colour TV is to keep up with the Joneses. I certainly hope that in our consideration of Government service, this is not the attitude and we do not go in just because we want to be one up on the others. If we go in to extend our service, it should be on the basis of: is there a need? Is there a need for colour `I'V for our people? It is not a question of just because Philippines and Thailand have got colour TV, then we must have it. I certainly hope that this is not the main reason. The Parliamentary Secretary gave me the impression that that is the main reason why we are going into colour TV. An hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Sir, I do not think this is a question of just keeping up with the Joneses. We are keeping up with time. As my Parliamentary Secretary has already mentioned just now, most of our equipment has been in use for the last ten years. It is time for us to change, and it is better we change it because the new equipment can be used either for colour or black and white. That is one of the main factors which prompted us to go into colour TV. And it would be cheaper at this juncture to introduce colour because, in any case, most of the films and the tapes that we purchase and hire from overseas are already in colour. So why waste it and put it on black and white if we can show it in technicolour? Moreover, Members will be pleased to know that in future their photographs will also appear in colour on TV. It is only fair to give notice to Members now so that they should have colourful ties, shirts and other attire to make them appear more attractive on T.V.

Sir, I find the first part of the Minister's answer acceptable. But the second part is totally unacceptable. We do not want colour TV just so as to see ourselves as Members of Parliament in colour on TV. TV is to serve the people and not the Members in this Chamber. Some hon. Members: Hear, hear! 3.30 p.m.

Sir, regarding the word "million", I want to know ---

May I remind the Member for Anson that the guillotine time for this particular Head is 4.15 p.m.? And if he proceeds further on the word "million", we would not end our debate on this Head.

Sir, I want to know from the Minister whether they are going to use the word "million" in the Tamil language or do they want to continue using the English word "million" in the Tamil announcements. I want to be sure that the word "million" is changed to Tamil, which is latcham, so that I do not have to ask this again and again. If the announcement is in Tamil, we want to be sure that this word is in Tamil. We do not want it in Anglo-Tamil.

(In Malay): Sir, in view of the explanation of the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead FA 1111. Sir, it cannot be denied that film shows have become an indispensable form of entertainment for the people of Singapore. The cinema halls are always packed to capacity. This is an indication that our people like to see film shows. Therefore, the content of film shows do have a great impact and influence on our people. Over the past few years the films screened in our cinema halls were of questionable character. We all know that most of the films screened in the cinema halls are shows of violence, sex and of low taste. Good film shows are few and far between. The content of the shows is more or less the same. We take, for example, the films on violence. There is violent action from beginning to end, until all the characters are dead. It is a story of killing, and that has no educational value at all. On the other hand, we have the farcical shows which we cannot make head or tail of them. In the case of film on sex, there is nothing but sex. These films have undesirable effects on the young people of Singapore, especially when we are desirous of building a rugged and healthy society. It cannot be doubted that we all need good and educational films. The content of such films must be able to inspire people into good thinking. It must be able to encourage people to love labour and to improve themselves. Such films must be able to inculcate the feeling of patriotism, national consciousness, and how to conduct oneself as a man. These are the kinds of film shows that we want to have in Singapore. Sir, I would like to urge the Minister to apply a more stringent standard on film censorship. We must encourage a more healthy type of films to be screened in Singapore to give our people a better form of entertainment. The Minister may say that as a lot of films are imported from overseas, it is beyond our control, and that if a more stringent standard is applied on such importation, then we would have no film shows at all. I beg to differ on this count because it is the business of film producers to make money. If film producers overseas can understand our policy, then they will be encouraged to change their policy so that they will produce the kind of films that we want. Our film-viewing population consists of two million people and this is a highly profitable market which should be an attraction to overseas film producers.

Sir, I fully agree with the Member for Sembawang that films, such as films on violence, have a very strong influence on the young people. The Government has, therefore, always taken a serious view of screening films on violence and we have always been very strict in censoring such films. In fact, films that glorify violence or brutality are not allowed for exhibition in the Republic and those that contain violent and brutal scenes are appropriately censored before they are passed for public exhibition. We will not hestitate to tighten our censorship on films on violence. In fact, in 1973 we had to ban about 70 such films which glorify violence and gangsterism, and most of them were imported from Hong Kong or Taiwan. As to the other category of films, I do not think we can accept the Member for Sembawang's suggestion because if we were to allow only a certain type of films to be shown and not others, then I do not think we will have any films to show in our cinemas. In any case I do not run a cinema. The people in this business know what sort of films are good box office draws, and therefore they know what to bring to make good money. As to forcing film producers to change their policy, I do not think that is possible. The Member for Sembawang said that our potential audience of two million people would be sufficient to make film-producing a very profitable venture. I do not think that it is that profitable because film companies, especially those in Hollywood, will not make films just for two million people in Singapore. They will make films to suit a world-wide audience. So we either have them or not at all. That is about the true picture of film production.

(In Mandarin): Sir, the reply given by the Minister for Culture is exactly the same as that given last year. He is harping on the same tune.

Because your question is the same as last year!

(In Mandarin): The Minister seems to say that we cannot do anything because after all the films are imported. However, since he has said that strict film censorship will be carried out and that certain scenes will be cut, I hope he will cut more of those undesirable scenes. I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, time is getting short, and since I would like to give opportunity for other matters under the Ministry of Culture to be discussed, I am not moving all three amendments*. * The amendments, standing in the name of Mr J. F. Conceicao, read as follows: (6) That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 2030. (7) That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of item (a) of subhead AA 2730. (8) That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 2901.

Thank you. The following amendment stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy -

Mr P. Govindaswamy is not here.

(In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 3002. Sir, this vote is for the use of rural community centres. The amount to be allocated amounts to $40,000. It is really an insignificant sum compared with $130,000 for the previous year. There is a decrease of 225 per cent. I doubt this meagre $40,000 can meet the expenditure required for the 50-odd rural community centres. I am afraid it is not enough to buy one table-tennis table for each community centre. The idea of community centres is to create activity for the benefit of the community in the respective localities. We should therefore provide them with more funds so as to be able to give the people more guidance and activities such as conducting more educational classes to satisfy their needs. As we all know, the level of income of the people in the rural areas is generally low. So we cannot expect much from them by way of giving financial help to the running of rural community centres. Therefore, if these community centres cannot carry out more activities, then the Minister for Finance should consider giving more financial aid to assist them. I believe the community centre in the Minister's constituency is a suburban one. So he should agree with what I am saying here. In actual fact, the facilities in the rural community centres are dilapidated. For instance, the sewing machines are a decade old, and when in use the machines can be heard to grind and vibrate. The basket-ball courts are full of pot-holes and the ground is so uneven that the players can easily hurt themselves. In my constituency, the community centre has applied for financial assistance for the last three years. No reply has been given, and therefore no actual aid can be expected. Of course, we cannot blame the People's Association. The actual crux of the problem lies in the shortage of funds. Even a very skilful housewife cannot cook without rice. There are several kinds of classes, such as sewing and cooking, run by the community centre. These are very beneficial to rural womenfolk. These classes provide them with the necessary skills. However, in recent years, the number of these classes has dwindled. Some have closed down. Why is this so? It is not because instructors cannot be recruited. It is because the allowances for the instructors are too small, and they have resigned to seek better jobs. In these circumstances, we must adopt some measures to improve the situation. I hope the Minister in charge will give more funds to rural community centres so that the rural folks can get more benefit out of rural community services. I would also like to raise a question about cultural recreation in my constituency. Recently there was a cultural show full of rich items, and it appreciated by the people. On this, I would like to congratulate the Minister for having done much towards the motion of a healthy cultural recreation. But there is also a shortage of funds to stage such cultural shows. Therefore, I hope the Minister will pay attention to this matter and will not stop promoting such meaningful activities because of the shortage of funds. 3.45 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, it is the Government's policy to house three-quarters of our population by the lend of this decade. Taking the population level at two million, this will approximately amount to 1.5 million people being housed in Housing Board flats. This fact has affected certain sources and they have undertaken studies into various kinds of effects that this situation will produce. In fact, Sir, when this kind of massive situation comes about, i.e, three-quarters of our population are housed in Housing Board flats, I think it will have a bearing on our social and economic position in the years ahead. I feel, Sir, that when the populace live largely in houses with their backyard or compounds, whether be kampung houses, terrace, semi-detached or detached houses, there be sufficient room space and opportunity for the youths to express themselves the field of carpentry, mechanics, science or technology, which opportunity either be severely diminished or to lost when our populace reside in Housing Board flats, which are high-rise buildings. And I also feel that it is this kin experience, which the youths take in the backyards, kampung compounds, in the gardens of the semi-detached or detached houses, that inculcates in our youth a capacity to experiment, to dabble in the elementary principles of mechanics, carpentry, science or technology. I do not think that the schools, although equipped with such facilities, will be able to extend this opportunity to our youths at the end of this decade when they are housed in Housing Board flats. The only opportunity that exists, or can be possible therefore, can be found in the community centres which are amply distributed throughout our State, particularly those in Housing Board estates. I feel that we should think ahead and consider the feasibility of making it a deliberate policy to construct work rooms with work benches in community centres, which can accommodate such activities of our youths in the years to come. Unless this talent is nurtured and its loss prevented, our youth will be that much poorer in talent. I hope the Minister will be prepared to cause studies to be made in this direction and to assess its feasibility and practicability.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am gratified to note that the community centres under the People's Association have intensified the emphasis on how to mobilise and attract our youths to participate in the youth group activities. Sir, no one can deny that the success of a nation depends on the character and the quality of her youth, because they constitute the next generation. It is therefore our responsibility to guide them, train and help them to develop as leaders of tomorrow. Sir, there are at present 66 Youth Sub-Committees under the management committees of the various community centres in our Republic. Apart from games organised by them, the most popular activities are canoeing, yachting, mountaineering, hiking and camping. But, it is sad to note that there is only one community centre, that is, the Changi Point Community Centre that has such facilities, but they are very limited. There is a small number of canoes to cater for a large number of members, who joined the adventurers club organised by the Youth Subcommittee. Sir, last Saturday the Member for Kallang and I were invited to the inauguration of the Kallang Adventurers Club, which was held at the Changi Point Community Centre. I was told that they have a membership of about 500, which is very encouraging. Sir, in the course of a discussion with the leaders, they brought up problems of lack of facilities and funds to promote their activities. In the light of this, it is useless for us to publicise or keep harping that we must look after our youths, train them, and so on. The basically important thing is that we must provide them with up-to-date facilities. Sir, I would like to urge the Minister for Culture to look into the matter with great urgency so that the enthusiasm of these youths is not killed.

Mr Speaker, Sir, when the Member for Sembawang raised the matter of funds, I had a feeling that he was trying to ask for another community centre in his constituency. I have to disappoint him again this year because the provision of $130,000 in last year's Budget was actually intended for five rural community centres. But four of these centres had to be abandoned or the plans shelved as a result of development schemes which affect the sites. Therefore, the provision for this year has been reduced. The sum of $40,000 to be provided this year is actually meant for only one community centre, which is now under construction. He will note that the major portions of the provision for the financial year 1974 is meant for upgrading of facilities in key community centres. This is receiving priority attention now. It is true that we need to have more activities in community centres especially vocational activities. But I think the Member has actually pin-pointed the problem, and that is, the lack of instructors. The People's Association is now paying a very modest fee to our instructors, and this is insufficient to attract people to come forward, especially for posting to the rural areas, because many of these instructors prefer to be posted very near to their homes. The cultural shows provided by the People's Association will be continued and will eventually go round to all the constituencies. Whether or not we have the money and the funds to carry on such activities is another matter. We will try to get enough funds, whether they are to be provided by the management committees or by the People's Association. We would rather that the provision of funds be a spontaneous support from the local community, so that it would form part of the activities. I fully agree with the Member for Serangoon Gardens that we need to upgrade the facilities in our community centres. I think the Member is aware that most of our community centres were built in the 1960's to cater for certain types of activities. By now I think most of the community centres are either obsolete or badly in need of renovation or extension. Because of this, the members of the Board of People's Association have been doing their best in trying to get either funds or other facilities to provide better centres in the various places. There are lots of things we would like to do, but because of other priorities, I do not think we can implement all of them. At the present moment, the policy of the People's Association is that it will try to subsidise the building of community centres. In many cases, we have actually encouraged the local community to raise funds for the building of new community centres. We will also try to match these funds with a dollar-for-dollar subsidy up to a maximum of $60,000. But where a constituency has not got even a community centre, then the policy of the People's Association is that it will bear the entire cost of the construction of the community centre. 4.00 p.m. For additional centres in any constituency, other considerations have to be taken into account. For instance, for a standard-type community centre, the subsidy will be on a dollar-for-dollar basis, subject to a maximum of about $80,000. Where the existing community centre is insufficiently equipped with facilities to serve the residents, the4 the subsidy will be on a dollar-f or-dollar basis, subject to a maximum of $60~000. For the construction of rural community centres, the subsidy will be on a dollar-for-dollar basis, subject to a maximum of $40,000. Of course, these sums will not be sufficient in view of the high cost of construction and materials, but we will try to do what we can in these circumstances. We are also going to expand the activities of the Youth Sub-Committees feel that it is time to encourage youths to come forward for community service, and there is nothing better to place them in the community centres so that they can at least have a taste of what community life is. The Member for Changi has mentioned about his Canoeing Club. It is true that his community centre in Changi Point is the only centre with a Canoeing Club because that is the community centre which is by the seaside. I think even this community centre is in danger of being taken over because of development schemes. Bu course we will try to find other for such activities. However, right now, we are encouraging our youths to diversify their activities, whether it be canoeing, archery, mountaineering other forms of activity. The People Association will be very happy to entertain applications for subsidy for kinds of activity.

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the factor, I beg leave to withdraw amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead GA 3001. Sir, this sum of $215,000 is earmarked for such renovations as are required to prepare appropriate accommodation to house the art collection of the University of Singapore. I support this development, of course. The University art collection, valuable and interesting as it is, will now be made available to a much wider audience of our citizens who will find its new location at the National Museum more convenient than its old location at the University. The art collection is notable especially for the ceramics which cover a development from 2000 BC to the 19th century AD. The ceramic collection shows the development of Chinese and South-east Asian ceramics over a period of more than 3,000 years. Other items like cloth and textiles together with the ceramic collection reflect the spread of Chinese and Indian influence through trade in South-east Asia. There is also sculpture in bronze and stone, as well as other items of historical value like, for example, topographical water-colours artistically executed by a well-known artist. Therefore, both the University and the Ministry of Culture deserve the thanks of the public for taking steps to make items of our common heritage more easily available for the enjoyment of our people. However, I would like to use this amendment also as a peg to hang a reference to what has not been done as well as to what has been done. Besides alterations to house the University collection, there are alterations projected to turn a portion of the National Museum into an art gallery to display the paintings of our own artists as well as others and to represent an attempt to further encourage the development of art and artistic appreciation among our people. However, we are not sure whether this new art gallery will actually materialise. The proposal to construct this art gallery is based on a subvention, at least it is based on an optimistic expectation of a subvention, from the Arts Council of about three-quarter million dollars. As a result of the increase in costs, the total sum required is over $1 million. The tender for the construction of this art gallery in the National Museum has to be accepted within a matter of days. I would like the Minister's assurance that steps would be taken to ensure that instructions are given for the work to be proceeded with, otherwise I am afraid circumstances will arise that may well abort the proposal to provide Singapore with an art gallery in the very near future. Furthermore, even after the art gallery materialises, and I most solemnly and heartily hope that this art gallery will materialise, it is necessary for assurance to be given to keep this art gallery alive by building up its collection and encouraging activities around the art gallery. There are yet other aspects of renovations to the National Museum which I would like to comment on. In the addendum to the Presidential Address recorded in Hansard of 12th October, 1972, col. 48, a paragraph reads: `The Museum .., is being reorganised as a display centre devoted to the art, history and anthropology of the peoples of this region.' The people who are running the Museum have got ideas, they have energy, but they have no support in practical terms, namely, money. There are many categories of collections in the Museum which are in storage. There are objects illustrating everyday life of our people through various stages of the development of our society. These exhibits have to be presented in an interesting way with an appeal to visual and audial responses and with an appeal, if possible, to a sense of touch and of movement. We need to use dioramas, where these can fruitfully be used, and not the dull bulky cases with which the present Museum is being equipped and which it has inherited, like worthless heir-looms. And the artifacts, which the Museum has, which relate to our heritage have to be interestingly presented because they would be helpful in stimulating a sense of history and cultural tradition in our people and a pride in them in our cultural environment. Sadly, many of these artifacts have deteriorated. Woodwork has been affected by worms and termites; inappropriate lighting has caused fabric to fade, bleach and even crumble. It is very necessary that conservation measures should be undertaken, otherwise evidence -valuable evidence - of our cultural past will be irretrievably lost. As I have said, we can generate the expertise, the energy, the initiative to be directed towards this sort of cultural development but we need financial support. Large sums of money have been appropriated for the development of the Science Centre, and certainly an understanding of our scientific environment is also part of our culture. But what about the aspects of our culture that may be enshrined and presented in our Museum of art and history? They are just as important to stimulate, as I have said, in our people a response to their cultural environment, an appreciation, an awareness of their heritage,. I think this will just as much contribute to a sense of unity among our people, even more so perhaps, than the Science Centre with which I certainly have no quarrel. I remember the senior Parliamentary Secretary in the debate on the Budget Statement last year in March, 1973, saying that more attention should be paid to the building and strengthening of the infrastructure for the development of culture and the Minister himself has said in March last year that he wanted to get down to something realistic where culture is concerned. Apparently he wanted to shy away from the abstract. How much more realistic can you get than by contriving to get monetary support for the development of the Museum. I hope, Mr Speaker, Sir, in the very little time he has left to answer the questions that I have raised, the Minister will give us some creative and new answers, otherwise we may have to ask the same questions again and he will say that we are "putting new wine into old bottles". If he were not to uncock the old wine bottle and give out answers that are old, perhaps we can ask questions which will represent a wine of a very fine timbre and quality. Mr Jek Yeun Thong rose -

Mr Minister, you have two minutes for your creative answers!

Sir, I shall try to be as creative as possible. The $215,000 earmarked in this year's Budget is to renovate three galleries in the National Museum to put on public display the valuable art collection of the University of Singapore which, when housed in proper surroundings, will become easily accessible to and be better appreciated by both our own citizens and foreign visitors. I think this would be the pride of our culture, because it would give good expression to our young people. As to the coat which the Member for Katong was trying to hang on the peg, the art gallery was actually a scheme by the Singapore Arts Council which has generously provided a capital sum of $760,000 to turn part of the museum into an art gallery. After that the Government will be responsible for the running and maintenance of the gallery as part of the National Museum and, therefore, also as part of a Government department. However, in view of the high cost of building materials, the inflationary trends and also because of the delay in preparing the plans, the cost of establishing an art gallery in the National Museum has gone up to $1.1 million. However, the Singapore Arts Council has indicated that it will again cough out an additional sum of about $388,000. There has been some argument as to who is to be responsible for the additional sum. My thinking on this matter is that we should get the project going, and we can talk about the money later. What I am interested in is to get it done first. 4.15 p.m. An hon. Member: Hear, hear!

The Member for Katong has my assurance that this will be done.

Sir, I think here is a case of divided loyalty on my part. I am the President of the Arts Council, but I have to speak as a Member of the House and not as the President of the Council.

Mr Fong, the guillotine time for this particular Head has passed. Mr Conceicao.

Sir, I am very happy with the Minister's answer, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The time allotted for Head IA having expired, the following amendment standing in the name of Dr Ong Leong Boon was not proceeded with -

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1004. Sir, what is really happening to sports in Singapore? Sometime back there were complaints against the National Sports Promotion Board. Then the NSPB and the National Stadium Corporation merged and it i5 now known as the Singapore Sports Council. What is the outcome of the merger? Has it helped in any way in promoting sports? Nothing. We still see confusion and poor standards of performance of our sportsmen. It seems that some of the officials of the Singapore Sports Council are snobbish and arrogant as reported in the press. If it is true, can anything be done about this? I understand that there is a weeding exercise being carried out on the former NSPB officials. Is it really necessary? These people are being replaced by inexperienced people who have no particular interest in sports at all. Yet they are being promoted within a short space of time. Of late, because of the introduction of inter-constituency games, soccer is catching up in Singapore and thus manages to attract a fairly reasonable crowd at the Jalan Besar Stadium. But let me warn the Minister: even this crowd will soon melt away from the way things are being done and organised for the inter-constituency games. On this matter, let me ask one simple question. Why was there such a poor response for the inter-constituency table tennis and sepak takraw tournaments? Is it because the officials did not go down to the grass-root level to organise these two games properly? Secondly, why was the organisation of inter-constituency Chinese chess nipped in the bud? It is a popular coffee-shop game. We are losing the great opportunity to get our young and old folks to share a common interest and attract them to community centres. What incentives has the Sports Council offered in the interest of sports promotion? What sort of motivation has it displayed to the up and coming sportsmen of our country? Let me now come to the wonderful white elephant in Kallang. It was built at great cost to host the SEAP games. What has happened after that? Because of high rentals, clubs and associations are reluctant to use its facilities. To make a joke of the whole thing, the field when wet is no better than a fishing pond. The field has no proper drainage system.

Can the Member for Anson speak on the general policy of the Ministry under this particular amendment? What he is talking about now should rightly be raised under amendment to subhead AA 2730.

Sir, please excuse me. This stadium is no better than the Jalan Besar Stadium. Over $100,000 is being spent to maintain the stadium. Is this not a waste? Perhaps a reduction in rentals for the complex may attract the crowd that it badly needs. At the present rate, do not be surprised if the National Stadium is haunted. There are five squash courts but there are no viewing galleries. Something should be done about this. Now let us take a look at the surrounds of the stadium. Even during the period of the SEAP games and after that, the surrounds of the National Stadium are a national disgrace. What we see are good lallang fields and potholes, ideal for mosquito breeding. Surely the Singapore Sports Council is not encouraging the breeding of `sporting' mosquitoes. During the SEAP games because of the poor response on certain days, school children were admitted free. But what a mess the officials created. Children accompanied by parents were segregated. Sir, you can guess what the result was - missing parents and missing children. What an impression we had given to the outside world one can only wonder, and all because of some foolish and childish decision. The stadium complex contains facilities for exhibitions, etc. How far are they being used? Again, are they being under-utilised because of high rentals? With all these snags, there is an exodus of experienced personnel from the Singapore Sports Council. It is time that a reorganisation was made and proper persons placed in office, not publicity seekers, but sportsmen in the real sense of the word. There should be more innovation than control in the betterment of sports.

Sir, I would like to know what the Member for Anson exactly meant by "poor response" at the recent inter-constituency sepak takraw tournaments. If he was talking in terms of crowd response, then he was wrong because I was there every night for as long as my team was taking part. The response from the crowd was good. If he was thinking in terms of participation, then I must say that it is the policy of the SSC not to force people to take part. This was one of the faults of the former NSPB.

Sir, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education says that there was a good crowd at the sepak takraw tournaments. I do not think so. Perhaps there was a good crowd on certain days but not every day.

I note that the Member for Serangoon Gardens has an amendment* on the subject of what the last speaker has been talking about. Would he like to join in? * The amendment, standing in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo, reads as follows: (7) That the sum to be allocated for Head KA be reduced by $10 in respect of item (m) of subhead AA 2730.

Yes, Sir, if you consider it relevant. I filed this amendment merely to seek information from the Minister as to how the Singapore Sports Council is going to programme the viability of the National Stadium. There have been remarks that the National Stadium is a white elephant, and the prospect of this condition improving appears to be dim. But I am sure the Singapore Sports Council's executive and the Board are working on something. The only fault is that there has not been any disclosure of this programme. So this gives me an opportunity to ask of the Minister details of such a programme.

Sir, sports promotion is a long-term and continuing process of education and organisation in sports and games. The aim is to make Singapore a sports-loving nation. The people are being provided with better and improved sporting facilities and more facilities are being planned and developed. The manpower in coaching of games is being increased. Increased utilisation of sports facilities is being actively promoted and sports and games in schools are receiving a new emphasis. How the people respond depends on the personal values and attitudes and those of their leaders. How our sportsmen fair in competitions against other countries depends on the area or region of competition. It has been shown very clearly that Singapore can hold its own in regional competitions as evidenced by the high standards of performances of our sportsmen at the SEAP games last year. Press relations have been improved by regular meetings with the press. An effective bilingual officer has recently been appointed as press and public relations officer to ensure close liaison with the press. The Member for Anson mentioned about the absorption exercise. In any absorption exercise, some people will be selected and others rejected. Officers of the NSPB and the NSC were recruited from various organisations. Some were seconded, others were on transfer, and some were recruited direct by the two bodies. The majority were temporary officers. It was necessary to regularise the staffing position so that suitably qualified and experienced staff would be absorbed by the Singapore Sports Council. This assessment was made by an independent body, the Public Service Commission. The Member need not suspect the integrity of the PSC. There has been no exodus of experienced personnel from the SSC. Every organisation in Singapore is facing the problem of staff movement because of the over-employment and booming conditions in Singapore. Last year, one senior staff of the SSC retired while two seconded Government officers returned to their respective Ministries after their period of secondment. Professional, clerical and technical staff leave because the SSC, paying Government salary scales, is unable to match the salaries paid by the private sector. The SSC has been reorganised and is being strengthened with suitably experienced personnel from the Ministry of Education to ensure that sports in Singapore will see a new era. The SSC is aware that football has problems, and active measures have been taken to look after its administration. A group of experienced and dedicated Singaporeans have been given the responsibility to manage football in the country. 4.30 p.m. These officials and the SSC will need the collective support of elected Members of Parliament, who are responsible for their constituencies' sports associations, to ensure that the games continue with spontaneous participation and increasing spectator support. The SSC has drawn up a programme of inter-constituency games in consultation with MPs. Certain guidelines were laid down for the conduct of these games. It was the consensus of the MPs, present at the two meetings to discuss inter-constituency games, that participation by the various constituencies should be spontaneous. Those constituencies that could not fill teams would not participate. The response to the table tennis tournament was encouraging. That of sepak takraw was poor, because in many constituencies the game does not enjoy the same degree of popularity as other games do. Another reason for lesser participation is the fact that constituency sports associations are being newly established and have not been consolidated with adequate manpower and financial resources. Inter-constituency Chinese chess was omitted from the 1974 programme at the request of MPs present at the second meeting to discuss inter-constituency sport. The Member for Anson was absent. He would perhaps be relieved to learn that the People's Association has been requested to promote what he called this "popular coffee-shop game" at community centres. He also spoke about incentives to encourage the sportsmen. Sports and recreation are healthy, wholesome, leisure-time activities. They develop talents in individuals with good character and discipline, team spirit, community cohesiveness and national loyalty. Are incentives really required for participation in such a movement? Steps are being taken to ensure that emerging sportsmen from our schools find suitable clubs to join so that their sporting careers are developed to their benefit and to the benefit of the nation. The SSC further offers sports facilities free of charge to national sports organisations for the training of national teams for competition, locally and abroad. Injured sportsmen are treated free in the Sports Medicine Unit of the SSC. If the Member is thinking of monetary incentives for national sportsmen, this will have to be the responsibility of the respective national sports organisations. The SSC does not consider it proper to disburse public funds among a handful of talented sportsmen. The greatest and most satisfying reward lies in being chosen to represent Singapore. It would really be a day of sorrow when the quality of performance of our sportsmen is directly proportionate to the size of their pocket allowance. On the use of the National Stadium, let me point out that the National Stadium was not built solely to host the 1973 SEAP Games. The moving force came from sports officials in the national sports organisation way back in 1963. Sports authorities at that time felt that Singapore's sportsmen and sports fans deserved a modern sports stadium. This is still true today. Our sportsmen performed creditably, even beyond the expectation of officials, in the recent SEAP Games. Members of Parliament who witnessed the Games would have noted this spontaneous loyalty to the nation that these Games generated amongst sportsmen and sportswomen who rose to the occasion, and among fans who cheered the national team with charged emotion. All public amenities cost money to run. Clubs and associations which are reluctant to use the facilities of the National Stadium do so because they are poorly organised and are unable to raise monies for their programmes. The rental charged at the National Stadium has been carefully worked out. They are correlated to charges of other sports facilities in Singapore. The user merely pays for the direct cost of the services provided. The SSC is unable to subsidise the use of the stadium, as it is being stretched to its maximum in trying to earn revenue to maintain its facilities. There is no stadium in the world which can be wholly run on its collections from sporting activities alone. The exhibition area of the National Stadium has been developed on the initiative of Stadium authorities. This is being actively promoted among organisers of trade fairs. It is true, Sir, that the sub-soil drainage system has been inadequate, but I have not seen anybody yet fishing in the field. Steps have been taken to remedy the situation. The squash courts which were built at the National Stadium were originally not part of the Stadium but were constructed to increase utilisation. Viewing galleries for squash are considered a luxury. The maintenance of the ground outside the National Stadium has still not been settled as the area has officially not been confirmed as part of the property of the SSC. Lastly, Sir, on children who were lost in the stadium. There might be one or two-odd children who were separated from their parents momentarily, but it would be an exaggeration to say that the situation was chaotic in this respect. To answer the queries raised by the Member for Serangoon Gardens. He wanted to know the programme of sports being considered by the SSC. The sports programme of the SSC is at present limited to the organisation of inter-constituency games. Together with the co-operation of the People's Association, it will encourage and promote intra-constituency games mainly for recreation and sports. The SSC will assist national associations and the SNOC, that is, the Singapore National Olympic Council, in the organisation and staging of national, regional and international games. It has close liaison with the Ministry of Education and is assured that sports and games are receiving adequate emphasis in the development of our school children. The positive methods being adopted to encourage mass participation in sports in Singapore are as follows: First, to give sportsmen and supporters a new identity. Adult sports has died in Singapore because of a lack of identification. Sports in Singapore received considerable support in yester-years because they were communal-orientated. In modern independent Singapore, loyalty to one's constituency is being actively promoted. Secondly, optimum use of existing facilities is being secured. School children are allowed to train on athletic tracks, without charge. Swimming pools are being made available to the public from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m, on a continuous-use system, so that anybody may swim at a time convenient to him rather than on the present system of a fixed or block time. Thirdly, schemes are being studied to increase the amount of dual use of sports facilities so that constituencies without sports facilities may share in the use of facilities in other constituencies. Fourthly, planning for the future provision of sports centres has begun in conjunction with the Ministry of National Development, Housing and Development Board. Urban Renewal Authority and Public Works Department. Such forward planning on the nature and scale of sports centres and stadia in newly-planned urban areas and densely populated residential areas will ensure the orderly development of sports facilities where they are much needed. Fifthly, existing sports facilities will be programmed when funds are available to allow for diverse and increasing participation. Lastly, people are being made aware of what is happening. Better liaison with the press and mass media has been established, which I have just said. Sports and recreation will be promoted by publicity in the mass media, films and publications. These are only some of the methods being adopted. In the final analysis, mass participation in sports in Singapore will only take place when the drive of every Singaporean for wealth and prosperity can be directed towards the desire for a gracious style of living and the regular habit of taking part in sports.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister remarked that I was absent at a meeting. That was because I received very short notice of the meeting and therefore I could not attend as I had other engagements. Another point is this: does the Minister agree that the officials of the Singapore Sports Council are snobbish and arrogant as reported in the press?

That was a matter of opinion from the press.

In view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BA 1111. Sir, this is an item in respect of the Central Complaints Bureau. Judging by the increasing number of complaints against various aspects of Government service appearing daily in the readers' column of the various local press, and indeed the continuing large number of complaints handled by the Bureau as contained in the Minister's written answer to me recently, it is clear that our citizens are becoming conscious of their entitlement to courteous and efficient service from our civil servants. Sir, the Bureau is performing a very important function. It is therefore rather disappointing for me to note that from year to year no attempt seems to have been made to increase the number of staff in this Department, to the extent that some people have come to me and said that they would rather write to the press than to approach the Bureau, because by writing to the press they could get their problems solved very quickly. It appears rather strange to me that the remuneration of the officer in charge of that Department should remain the same at $19,800. Is it because `he has not done his job well? As I have pointed out earlier, in view of the important functions of the Department, perhaps a more senior person should be put in charge there, perhaps a person with a status equivalent to that of a Permanent Secretary.

Sir, in my written answer to the question of the Member, the actual fact is that the number of complaints has decreased from 120 in 1972 to 93 in 1973. There is no increase. Looking at the work of the Bureau and also at the general nature of the enquiries and complaints dealt with by the Bureau, there is no need at present to strengthen the establishment of the Central Complaints Bureau. As regards the salary of the Director, which the Member said is static, he has reached his maximum. It is not because he is not doing his work properly.

Sir, I did not say that there is an increase in the number of complaints to the Bureau. I said that there is an increasing number of complaints to the press, the reason being that one gets a much quicker answer by complaining to the press than to the Bureau. 4.45 p.m.

That is something beyond me. If people want to complain to the press, they are free to do so. But the Complaints Bureau is open every day, except Sundays, for anybody to make a complaint.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to support the point which the Member for Jalan Kayu is trying to drive home. It has been suggested that if the Bureau can show its effectiveness in tackling complaints by having a more effective manpower force, or perhaps a higher officer to be in charge, it could give the service that the public expects. Then perhaps the public would not be writing to the press. However, it is obvious, therefore, that they have to write to the press for effective measures to be taken. Sir, the point that we are suggesting here is that perhaps the Minister could consider looking into the reorganisation of the Bureau, in terms of better manpower or more effective leadership. I think that may encourage more complaints to be made to the Bureau.

Mr Speaker, Sir, since the press is much more effective than the Complaints Bureau, I would suggest to the Minister that the Complaints Bureau is of no further use. Would the Minister, therefore, think of scrapping it?

Further to that, Sir, I am thinking that it is simply because of the efficiency of the Members of Parliament in tackling problems in their Meet-the-People sessions that the Central Complaints Bureau appears now to be redundant, Sir.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Member for Jalan Kayu has a very important point which has been further stressed by the Member for River Valley. I rise in support of their sentiments because it seems to me that there is obviously more room for improvement in the Central Complaints Bureau, and this will help to cut down the number of letters to the press. I am not against letters being sent to the press, because I think people are free to express any opinion they like. But if one were to plough through the papers and look at the type of complaints that have been lodged - some of these are very minor -- one does not see any reason why this should be in the press at all. If anything, it gives the public and the foreign tourist in Singapore a very poor image of our people and, sometimes, of our officers in the public service.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I certainly go along with the previous speakers over the need to increase the efficiency of the Complaints Bureau by the increase of adequately qualified staff. But I think the Complaints Bureau will never be able to compete with the press simply because complaints to the Bureau are not made public and the complainant does not get the satisfaction of seeing his complaints expressed publicly. The medium of the press, however, gives him that satisfaction because to the complainant nothing is more satisfying than to see his grouse aired publicly. But talking about complaints, Sir, I wonder whether we have got a Complaints Bureau in Parliament because I believe the reporters who have got to work from 2.30 p.m, till 8.00 p.m, are not supplied with tea. They are experiencing great difficulty in getting tea around the vicinity. Perhaps to make them happy and to ensure that they are properly refreshed, it is only decent that we supply them with tea.

Sir, two opinions have been expressed in this House this afternoon about the Complaints Bureau. One is that the Bureau should be scrapped and the other that it should continue to be strengthened. But there is effectiveness in the function of the Complaints Bureau, otherwise people will not go there everyday to complain. If they want to air their complaints in public, there is nothing I can do to stop them. The only difference, Sir, is that we do not publicise what we do. Our purpose is to investigate into the complaint and take whatever action we deem fit to settle it. But if people complain to the press, perhaps because they like to see their name in the press, there is nothing I can do about it. We cannot judge the deficiency or the efficiency of the Central Complaints Bureau against the number of complaints appearing in the press.

Sir, as the Minister has correctly suggested, perhaps publicity should be given to the existence of the Central Complaints Bureau, so that more people will know about it. Maybe the Minister may even want to give some examples of its effectiveness.

Sir, all this leads to my original point when we started off this Budget debate. I think that if we have sufficient annual reports from the various departments as to their performance, achievements, and difficulties, we would be that much informed and we could then make a pertinent assessment of the redundancy or effectiveness of this or that department and thereby make our recommendations accordingly.

Hear, hear!

That is an ideal suggestion voiced by the Member for Serangoon Gardens.

Sir, I would just like to clarify. When I brought up this amendment, my whole intention was to give publicity to this Bureau once a year. I am not really complaining. I think this Bureau deserves a bit of publicity, and it is only once in the year that we are able to let the people know that there is the Complaints Bureau to which they can go. And if the Minister assures us that he is satisfied with the service, nevertheless we have put up useful suggestions for him to think about. On this note, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

At this stage, I think we will have a Suspension for the sake of some Members who want tea. Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the house.

I suspend the Sitting now and shall take the Chair again at 5.20 p.m. Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.52 p.m. until 5.20 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.20 p.m.

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

Head KA (contd.)

(In Malay): Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead DA 1111*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi). Sir, firstly, I wish to know whether the Singapore Government has made any contribution to the Medical Department, Malaysia, in Saudi Arabia for the medical needs of Singapore pilgrims. If so, what is the amount of contribution that is made yearly? Secondly, in view of the number of our pilgrims increasing year by year, I wish to suggest that the Muslim Religious Council be asked to set up a Pilgrimage Office in Mecca and Medina to house the local medical officer there, so that they can assist our pilgrims who are sick. To-date, our pilgrims have to depend on the medical officers of Malaysia, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. This is a shame on our part. Although we are independent, to-date we have not shown any responsibility towards our own people who make pilgrimages to the Holy City. We must show our readiness to protect our citizens wherever they may be.

(In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I support the point raised by the Member for Geylang Serai. The Minister for Social Affairs has said in this House on 21st March, 1972, [col. 940]: `... that the arrangement for pilgrimage through the establishment of Tabong Haji or the Pilgrimage Fund will include the provision of welfare and health facilities for pilgrims during their sojourn in Mecca, Medina and Jeddah. The Pilgrimage Committee is considering the provision of medical facilities, including the services of a doctor and a nurse for the pilgrims when they are in Mecca. The provision of a welfare officer to look into the welfare aspects of the pilgrims and the services of a reputable pilgrim broker, .., are also being looked into.' If these services mentioned by the Minister in 1972 have still not been provided, I do not know when can they be provided, as two years have already elapsed, Sir. Another point, Sir, is that last year the Pilgrimage Office in the Ministry of Social Affairs announced that as from 1974 Singapore pilgrims travelling by air would be required to use pilgrimage passports, and that they would no longer be using international passports as had been done in previous years. I wish to know, Sir, which department will be responsible for the issue of these pilgrimage passports. Would it be the Immigration Department, the Muslim Religious Council of Singapore, or the Malaysian Pilgrimage Fund? Sir, I also wish to know if this requirement will be implemented this year.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Geylang Serai may wish to know that the Muslim Religious Council is now looking into the whole matter concerning pilgrimage and is considering the setting up of a Pilgrimage Advisory Committee for this purpose. I am aware of complaints from Singapore pilgrims regarding the treatment they receive from their agents or their pilgrim brokers. By and large, most of the complaints are not from Singapore pilgrims who travel by sea, as there is an arrangement with the Tabong Haji of Malaysia that their medical and welfare mission at Saudi Arabia will take care of Singapore pilgrims arriving by sea. But the arrangement does not include our pilgrims who travel by air. There is, therefore, a need to come to some arrangement with the Malaysian authorities whereby their network of medical and welfare facilities all over Saudi Arabia will also be made available to our pilgrims who travel by air. The Member may wish to know that for the period 1970-73, Singapore has made the following contributions: 1970 $18,827; 1971 $14,540; 1972 $16,349; and 1973 $8,472. These annual contributions are based on the number of our pilgrims who travel by sea. Sir, both Members referred to the need to provide welfare and medical facilities for Singapore pilgrims during their pilgrimage to Mecca. I must first stress that to establish a network of welfare and medical facilities in Saudi Arabia is a very costly business. It costs our neighbour about $450,000 a year. The present satisfactory arrangement with the Tabong Haji of Malaysia does not warrant the setting up of an elaborate organisation only to duplicate the services and facilities which are already made available to us. However, something modest may be possible along the lines of what I had suggested in the Committee of Supply in March, 1972. The Muslim Religious Council has already planned the establishment of a co-operative to build a Pilgrimage Fund. Once this scheme is fully implemented, it should be possible to consider providing medical and welfare facilities if these are found necessary. 5.30 p.m. Sir, our immediate concern is to ensure that pilgrim brokers do not make empty promises to pilgrims and their agents in Mecca, Medina and Jeddah. They must be really reliable people who carry Out their duties diligently and not just be interested in making money by taking on a large number of pilgrims if they cannot manage or provide them with adequate facilities. In this connection, the officials of the Muslim Religious Council will be holding a meeting of all pilgrim brokers. The Council welcomes any information on pilgrim brokers or their agents. If the services of these people are unsatisfactory in any way, their licences will not be renewed in the future. The question of extending medical welfare services and facilities to pilgrims who travel by air to perform the Haj is being looked into. Officials of the Muslim Religious Council will be holding discussions with their Malaysian counterparts on this matter. For the time being, we are considering the possibility of sending a welfare officer to Saudi Arabia during the pilgrimage season to look after the welfare of our citizens performing the Haj. In fact, from this year onwards prospective pilgrims proceeding to Saudi Arabia, irrespective of the mode of travel, will be issued with pilgrim passes by the Pilgrim Officers. The Pilgrimage Office has started the registration of all pilgrims for the current pilgrimage season. However, in the case of pilgrims travelling by air, arrangements are being made with the Immigration Department to issue international passports with a pilgrim pass endorsement to obviate the necessity for such pilgrims to possess two documents. Such an arrangement would be economically beneficial to pilgrims as they only need to pay for one passport instead of two.

(In Malay): In view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead EA 1107. Mr Speaker, Sir, the Legal Aid Bureau provides a commendable service to our unfortunate citizens who are unable to obtain the services of a private legal counsel. It is very obvious that more and more of our citizens are seeking assistance from the Legal Aid Bureau. It is known that one may have to wait for a considerable period of time before aid can be given because of the pressure of work and the number of cases the legal officers have to deal with. The waiting period for legal assistance is becoming longer and longer. I do not apportion any blame at all either to the Director of Legal Aid or to his officers because of the shortage of manpower. Sir, since 1968 there has been no in-crease at all in the number of legal officers assigned to the Bureau. In 1968, that is, six years ago, there were four legal officers, other than the Director. Today, with the increase in the workload and in the number of people seeking legal assistance, the establishment strength remains the same. If this position is not improved, the time will come when the whole machinery of the Bureau is bogged down, and the very purpose for which the Bureau has been set up would be defeated. I hope the Minister for Social Affairs will not refer me to the Minister for Finance.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the time taken to complete a case would vary with its circumstances. Civil cases normally take some time to settle. Usually it will be necessary to obtain reports, notes of evidence and other relevant material from various sources. Sometimes more time is required because of the involved court proceedings. Therefore, the delay is unavoidable. I regret it very much. Persons applying for legal aid are normally given an appointment two or three weeks after they have registered their cases. Although the situation could be improved, the Bureau could not have done better in view of the limited staff and increased work-load. The number of applications for legal aid has increased from 3,745 in 1972 to 4,394 in 1973, and the number of staff that we have is only five legal officers and four interpreters to deal with all these cases. Fortunately we have one legal officer on loan to the Bureau and a student interpreter who is attached to the Bureau on a part-time basis. However, the Member may wish to know that the staffing position is still far from satisfactory and we are pressing the Ministry of Finance very hard for more staff.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister is complaining of the same complaint that I have made! Where do we go from here? Pressing the Ministry of Finance for yet more staff would not be enough. He has the support of the Members from this side of the House, but I am afraid he is not fighting hard enough. Since 1968, i.e, for six years, the strength has still been only four legal officers and one Director; only five officers since 1968. On the one hand we have some departments, bureaux and units where more people are not necessary, and on the other hand we are short of officers in some departments. Perhaps the Minister should fight harder, if necessary, to get more men in the Legal Aid Bureau.

Mr Speaker, Sir, can the Member for Telok Blangah show me a way to fight harder with my colleague, the Minister for Finance?

The Minister should make a better case.

We have done all that we can, but there is the question of priorities.

The Minister should press his case.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Conceicao, amendment (5)*. * The amendment, standing in the name of Mr J. F. Conceicao, reads as follows: (5) That the sum to be allocated for Head KA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead FA 1111.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister for Social Affairs had given me a very adequate answer to an Oral Question on this topic, and since he had expressed his satisfaction with the work of the Probation and Aftercare Officers, I will not move this amendment.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead HA 1111+. (+ The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs J. F. Conceicao, P. Govindaswamy and Ho Kah Leong.) Mr Speaker, Sir, as early as April, 1969, I complained about the existence of the archaic Co-operative Ordinance. May I quote myself from Hansard, Vol. 28, col. 1005? `whether he [that is, the Minister] is aware that the Co-operative Societies Ordinance which was last amended in 1955, is outdated and if he will consider setting up a committee comprising officials from the Co-operative Development Division, the co-operative movement and the trade union movement to review the Ordinance;' Let me now quote the reply given then in the same column of the Hansard. `.., the Ministry will consider making amendments, if necessary, to the Ordinance in order to meet the practical difficulties which co-operative societies have experienced with the existing Ordinance.' Sir, these words were spoken in April, 1969, five years ago. Since then, the Ordinance has become more archaic now. Perhaps it should go to the National Museum. Sir, we are happy to note, however, that the Minister is inclined to help the NTUC co-operatives, as may be necessary in recognition of the services they are rendering towards consumers by offering them goods and services at fair prices. To curb undue profiteering and to stabilise prices, co-operative ventures should be given all encouragement. In this connection, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the Co-operative Societies Act which was promulgated as far back as 1925 but has not undergone much basic change in the meanwhile. The provisions and rules made thereunder do not, therefore, take cognizance of the changed economic and social conditions now prevailing in the Republic. It is now agreed by the authorities as well as those connected with various co-operative societies that the Act requires substantial amendments. In fact, in April, 1973, the Registry of Co-operative Societies called in an ILO expert, Dr Jurgen Von Muralt, to look into the matter. Having held discussions with various people, including the NTUC, Dr Muralt is on record as saying that the Act requires re-writing. However, since then no further developments appear to have taken place. Apart from the provisions applying to meetings, quorums and filing of various returns with the Registry of Co-operatives, the items which require looking into are: (1) The 6 per cent limit on the dividends on the capital of a co-operative society. (2) Provisions for reserves. (3) Restrictions on investments. As banks and other financial institutions currently allow much more than 6 per cent interest on their fixed deposits, it is difficult for the co-operative societies to attract the necessary capital funds. While for some primary societies the provisions under (2) and (3), i.e, provisions for reserves and restrictions on investments, might have been useful in the olden days they are unduly restrictive if the co-operatives want to enlarge their field of operation. This is especially so in the case of non-primary societies operating in specialised fields such as insurance and banking. These societies are also governed by specific Acts such as the Insurance Act and the Banking Act which do regulate appropriately their investments and reserve policies. Further restrictions under the Co-operative Societies Act are not necessarily conducive to their orderly progress. I hope that we need not have to wait for another five years before something is done by the Co-operative Development Division. What we need to do now is not amendments to the Co-operative Societies Act but perhaps re-writing the whole Act. 5.45 p.m.

Sir, under this subhead, I would just like to ask for some information or clarification. I am rather curious about the description of this Unit for co-operative development. I would like to ask what sort of encouragement this Unit gives to the development of co-operatives and parenthetically, maybe we could know what are the co-operatives that come within the purview or supervision of this Co-operative Development Unit. What sort of co-operatives are involved, and whether we have adequately trained staff to conduct the encouragement of the development of co-operatives? I would also like to know what sort of supervision or monitoring of the existing co-operatives is exercised by this Co-operative Development Unit to see that the co-operatives are run and managed properly for the benefit of the members of the co-operatives. In this connection, it would also be useful to know whether we have the staff who understand the management of co-operatives and who also understand the accounting problems associated with these co-operatives so that they may be able to see any shortcomings in the management of these co-operatives. They may thus also be able to assure themselves that the accounts are properly rendered and that members of the co-operatives do not suffer because there have been cases of certain shortcomings in the running of co-operatives.

Sir, the Singapore Government Officers' Co-operative Housing Society has been in financial trouble for a long time. What measures have been taken by the Registrar of Co-operative Societies to solve the problems of this Society? Is it true that this society is trying to overcharge its members for payment of houses bought? What action is being taken to solve the problem? How many of the members who have resigned so far have realised their assets? Sir, I would also like to know how many registered co-operative societies are in existence at the moment, how many are active, and how many have been considered as "lost in the wilderness"? What is the Registrar doing to control these societies? I hope they do not become "crocodiles" like some of the chit fund companies. With the present inflation, what part do these co-operative societies play to help the lower income group? Is it possible for the Government to import essential products and channel them through proper co-operative societies so that the middle-men and the big profiteers can be cut off? I would also like to inform the Minister that one of the officials of the Registry of Co-operative Societies used his influence to get benefit in the Singapore Government Officers' Co-operative Housing Society.

(In Mandarin): Sir, on the Co-operative Development Unit, I share the same sentiments expressed by the previous speakers. The function of the Unit should not be confined only to the registration of co-operative societies. It should be developed into a body to promote the co-operative movement in the Republic. Sir, I believe you will agree with me that the co- operative movement is still in its infancy. At the present juncture, we know that prices are rising day by day and certain traders are indulging in profiteering. We also know that the way to deal with profiteering is to set up more consumer co-operatives. The Ministry of Social Affairs can do a lot more in this respect. In other words, it should make the people aware that there is such a thing as a co-operative movement, especially the consumer co-operative societies. For example, in Queenstown there is a consumer co-operative society which has done a lot for the consumers. We should make this as an example so that the other constituencies could learn from Queenstown in setting up consumer co-operative societies. If we launch it vigorously, we will be able to deal with profiteering by traders effectively and to counter inflation in the Republic.

(In Mandarin): Sir, I agree with the Member for Jurong that the Registry of Co-operative Societies should not concern itself only with the registration of co-operatives and administrative procedures. It should launch campaigns to inculcate in the people the importance of having a co-operative movement to counter the rampant inflation. I would like the Minister to launch a campaign on consumer co-operatives in conjunction with the community centres. I believe that the consumer co-operative society in Queenstown has done splendidly. I have on one occasion been to this co-operative society. I saw people queuing up to buy the daily necessities, and I believe this co-operative society has made a lot of money. This money should be refunded to the members of the co-operative society.

Sir, the Members for Jurong and Sembawang are confused. We are debating here the item on the Registry of Co-operative Societies and not the co-operative movement. The co-operative movement should rightly be part of the work of the trade union movement, and not just some sort of work of the Registry. And these co-operatives should be controlled, of course. I must also clarify what the Members said about my club in Queenstown. It is just one way of offering a service to my constituents. As the Member of Parliament for that constituency, it is my duty to see that residents enjoy certain privileges, and if Members share this view, they should start their own clubs.

(In Mandarin): Sir, I would like the Minister for Culture to tell us whether his consumer co-operative is registered or not.

It is not a co-operative. It is part of the activities of the PAP branch.

Sir, I just want to make the point again that the queries of Members for Katong and Anson could all be answered in a suitable report from this department. We therefore come back to this same problem again. The queries arising from Backbenchers again and again consistently show a need and a demand for information, information on statistics, information on performance, and any information that could lead them and help them to undertake a more effective Backbencher-criticism of the various departments.

Sir, after what has been said by the Member for Serangoon Gardens and my colleague, the Minister for Culture, I do not think I need answer all the queries raised. Whatever it is, Sir, the co-operative movement in Singapore, though still a young movement as mentioned by the Member for Jurong, is unique in many ways. The direct involvement of the trade union movement in co-operative ventures is a rare feature even in countries which have a well established co-operative system with the active participation of the trade unions. Furthermore, the co-operative societies in Singapore have developed within an urban setting. The movement itself has undergone traumatic changes in recent years adapting itself to changes in social and economic needs and to technological progress, so much so that the existing co-operative legislation has been found to be out of step with the movement and the requirements for its future growth. At present, the Registrar of Co-operative Societies is hamstrung in his work because of an antiquated legislation and the shortage of staff - again the shortage of staff. In fact, when Dr Von Muralt, as mentioned by the Member for Telok Blangah, of the ILO made a study on the reorganisation of the Registry in April, 1973, he also discussed with various co-operative officials on the existing co-operative legislation, which was enacted in 1953 and geared to the requirements of the thrift and loan type of co-operatives. The consensus now is that we need to revise the co-operative legislation to make it more applicable to the needs of the present diversified activities and development of the co-operative movement. Dr Von Muralt recommended that the services of an expert be obtained to redraft the existing Co-operative Societies Act. It is expected, Sir, that very soon an expert on co-operative legislation from abroad, maybe from New Zealand or from the ILO itself, will be here on a six-month assignment to redraft the legislation. Once this is done, all the other related problems can he looked into further and with depth. The Member for Katong no doubt is aware of the basic principle governing co-operative organisations throughout the world - that a co-operative is an association of persons who have voluntarily joined together to achieve a common end through the formation of a democratically controlled organisation, making equitable contributions to the capital required and accepting a fair share of the risks and benefits of the undertaking in which the members actively participate. In other words, co-operative societies are autonomous organisations formed by persons on the basis of equality to promote economic interests. 6.00 p.m. Co-operatives determine their own management policies and activities. Sometimes failure of the management results in financial difficulty and inability to complete projects to the detriment of members. Under the existing Co-operative Societies Act and rules, the Registrar has certain supervisory and advisory functions, but he could not and should not interfere with the internal financial administration of co-operatives other than checking on the financial position and ascertaining that the activities are run in accordance with the bye-laws of the co-operative legislation. This brings up the next point on the functions of the Registry. The Member for Katong may wish to know that the title "Co-operative Development" in the Estimates is an old title inherited in the days when the Co-operative Development Division was under the Primary Production Department. At that time the intention was to promote rural co-operatives as part of the functions of the Primary Production Department. The present Registry, apart from inheriting this title in the Estimates, also inherited the structure and functions and also a small staff geared only to carry out the administrative and auditing duties as far as other co-operative societies are concerned. It is not geared for promotional research and training functions which are considered vital for the strengthening of the co-operative movement in Singapore. Whether the Registry can be reorganised for these roles or not will depend to a large extent upon the availability of additional staff which, unfortunately, was not made available to us despite strong representation from the Ministry and despite the recommendations of the ILO expert. Despite the shortage of staff which has remained unchanged all these years, the Registrar has drawn up an ambitious programme which has already created some impact and helped the movement not only in diversifying its activities but also in developing a sense of common purpose and common identity. However, there is still much to he done. In April last year a plan of action to strengthen the co-operative movement has been drawn up. School co-operatives are being established. Consumer co-operatives are being encouraged throughout the economic sector. There is now a close working relationship between the Registry and the Singapore National Co-operative Union and the NTUC. It is hoped that in time to come a co-operative federation will be formed to monitor the activities and give new directions to the co-operative movement in Singapore. The co-operative legislation will be revised to suit present-day needs. The Member for Anson made specific reference to the Singapore Government Officers' Co-operative Housing Society and the role of the Registrar of Co-operative Societies in solving the problems of this society. As I have stated earlier, co-operative societies are autonomous organisations. The problems of this particular society could have been easily solved by the sale of properties since that Co-operative has considerable capital assets, including buildings and lands, but the management considered this to be a last resort. The Registrar in circumstances like this cannot overstep his authority by imposing his will upon the Co-operative to order it to sell its properties at a time when property prices were rising rapidly. The Registrar very prudently avoided a confrontation with the management and endeavoured to help the society in other ways. A loan was arranged from the Government to strengthen the financial position of the Co-operative. The activities of this Society are being closely supervised to prevent further misuse of funds and mismanagement. Also, the Registrar insisted on a priority list for refunds to be drawn up. Priority was given to those resigned members who could furnish proof of purchasing flats or houses on their own. So far about 700 resigned members have realised their assets. I am not aware of any instance where the Society has overcharged its members for payment of houses. The Society normally estimates the price of a housing unit and grants loans to members amounting to 7/8ths of the estimated price. This does not include charges incurred by the Society for the completion of the houses, for example, roads, drains, sewerage, planning and architect's fees and legal fees, and so on. In addition, it charges one per cent on those members' borrowing rate of interest. As regards the Member's question on co-operative societies in general, he may be pleased to know that at present there are 77 co-operative societies. Out of these, seven are considered inactive, but I do not think they are "lost in the wilderness" as efforts are being made by the Registry to revive them. I would also like to assure the Member that there are no crocodiles in the co-operative movement. Co-operative societies are closely supervised by the Registrar. Their accounts are periodically audited by the Registry's officials, including an accountant working part-time. Co-operatives are entirely different from chit funds. The co-operative system and principle are specially designed to improve the economic, social and cultural situation of any country, and more particularly for groups of people with limited resources and opportunities, based on the principle of self-help and mutual co-operation. It is the Government's policy to encourage the movement to grow, and to curb inflation greater emphasis will be laid on the formation of consumer co-operatives and the WELCOME-type supermarkets. More and more of the existing co-operative societies are being encouraged to form themselves as multi-purpose co-operative societies whose activities will include bulk purchasing to enable members to purchase goods at a low price. The Member's suggestion, Sir, for essential products to be channelled through the appropriate co-operative societies is a welcome one. Already we have the NTUC WELCOME Co-operative whose organisation can easily take on this role.

Sir, as the Minister seems to agree with all my suggestions, I am just wondering whether we should make a $10 reduction after all. However, we have waited five years for amendments to the Act, and with his assurance that it will definitely be amended this time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. 6.08 p.m.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 3001. Sir, I have no objection to the Renovations to Upper Barracks for Occupation by Ministry of Social Affairs. If they want some additional amenities, let them have it. What I want to know is why is there no development estimates at all in respect of building creches? Sir, I would like to know what programmes the Ministry of Social Affairs has in respect of building creches for the coming years. I also want to know the number of creches that we have in Singapore under the management of the Ministry of Social Affairs, and their hours of operation. In these days of near full-employment in Singapore, imported female labour is being utilised. In many of our industries it is highly desirable that our own young wives be employed in the labour force. This can only be done if we provide creches either in the place of work or -

Point of order, Sir. The Member is speaking on the wrong subhead. I think Standing Order 47 (1) provides that.

Yes, the Member's objection is quite right.

Sir, if any other Member had moved this amendment, I would not mind stepping down and wait until the right opportunity comes. I am talking on the Development Estimates. I am questioning as to why there has been no Development Estimates provision for creches.

Sir, I do believe there is an amendment submitted by the Member for Jurong under Head KB subhead AC 1201.

The Member for Potong Pasir is quite right. Perhaps later on under Head KB subhead AC 1201, we could allow the Member for Telok Blangah to say something on development of creches. Would he mind waiting until then?

Thank you very much for your guidance, Sir. We have wasted just two minutes. I appreciate the building of creches in our satellite towns and estates ---

You are still at it?

Sir, do you want me to wait until the amendment on creches is moved?

Yes.

All right, Sir,I will speak on that when the proper amendment is moved. Meanwhile, I withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. 6.15 p.m.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 3002. Sir, this amendment is moved merely to seek information from the Hon. Minister. I notice that a sum of $4 million is to be allocated as a Government loan to the Singapore Sports Council to meet final payment for the cost of Phase I of the National Stadium complex. I would, therefore, like to ask the Hon. Minister what is the total amount of money that has been loaned to the Singapore Sports Council, and how much has been repaid so far? Sir, I remember, when the Hon. Dr Goh Keng Swee was in charge of the Ministry of Finance, he once mentioned in this House that the income to repay the Government's loan to the Stadium would come from two sources, i.e, the profits of Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd, and the takings at the gate of the Stadium. Since there will be no Phase II development for the National Stadium Complex construction, I would like to ask the Hon. Minister whether his Ministry is planning to make use of the profits of the Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd, for other purposes, such as sports promotion.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, to answer the question of the Member for Tiong Bahru, let me first dispel the impression that the entire proceeds of Singapore Pools go direct to the Singapore Sports Council or the National Stadium. The financial procedure adopted is for the SSC to put up to the Government a budget for the year, and this will be duly processed by the Ministry of Finance. After the usual pruning down to bare essentials, a certain sum is allocated to the Council either in the form of a loan for capital expenditure or in the form of a grant for sports promotion. The total amount that has been loaned to the Singapore Sports Council to date is $12 million. There has been no repayment by the Council so far, because they cannot afford it. Since the coming into operation of the Singapore Sports Council, the takings at the gate of the Stadium amounted to only $41,000. So you can see, Sir, that it is insufficient to cover the cost of maintenance of the Stadium, which averages slightly over $400,000 annually. From the start, it is never intended that the entire proceeds of Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd, are to be used for the construction of Phase II of the Stadium. In fact, the Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd, started operations even before we thought of Phase II. Therefore, the change of plan in the construction of the Stadium does not affect in any way the use of the profits of the Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd.

Sir, in view of the Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $5,112,570 for Head KA ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $4,746,000 for Head KA ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

There is a business motion, as indicated by the Leader of the House. Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I seek your consent, and the general assent of hon. Members, to move that the adjournment be taken on the completion of the consideration of Head KC, Fire Brigade, or at 8.00 p.m, tonight, whichever is earlier? There is just a possibility that we might finish this item before 8.00 p.m.

I give my consent. Do I have the general assent of Members for the motion indicated by the Minister to be moved, and the Question thereon proposed? Hon. Members indicated assent. Resolved, "That, notwithstanding the Standing Orders, the House do rise today immediately after the conclusion of the consideration of Head KC, Fire Brigade, in the Committee of Supply, or at 8.00 p.m, today, whichever is the earlier." - [Mr E W. Barker].

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

Head KB --

(In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KB be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1107*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Haji Mohd. Ariff and Mr P. Govindaswamy.) Sir, it cannot be denied that the Social Welfare Department has done a great deal in looking after the under-privileged and the unfortunate people in Singapore. The Social Welfare Department has given care and comfort to the poor and the sick in Singapore. It has always been the policy of the Singapore Government to look after the poor people. But at the moment because of the rising cost of living resulting from spiralling inflation, many people are suffering in Singapore because of the high cost of daily necessities such as rice, food, sugar and other items. In addition, the costs of other items such as rent, water and electricity have also gone up. So, Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, judging from the present situation, I am afraid that the present public assistance granted to the poor people is inadequate. The meagre sum granted under the public assistance scheme is too little for the livelihood of the poor family. May I therefore request the Minister to reconsider revising the rates of public assistance so that the poor people on public assistance can be better looked after, in the face of the rising cost of living? Secondly, I would like to ask the Minister to answer this question: how much has been granted by way of public assistance to the needy people in Singapore? Thirdly, I would like to ask the Minister whether there is any plan or scheme to set up a home for the handicapped children?

Haji Mohd. Ariff is not here.

Sir, what is the guideline used by the Social Welfare Department in the issue of permits for the purpose of entertaining inmates of welfare homes? During festive occasions permits are granted to certain organisations to entertain inmates, while certain other organisations are refused, without any reason being given. Since the inmates are being entertained with food, cash, etc., why refuse these organisations from doing their bit during such occasions? There was a report in the press about old inmates in a certain home run by a Buddhist monk. The home, if it can be called one, is in an old condition and the monk stated that the Social Welfare Department had refused to give a helping hand. Why is this so? Does it require publicity in the press before the Social Welfare Department acts, or does the Department think that our old citizens are unproductive to the Republic and, therefore, should be treated as "embarrassing liabilities"? Sir, I would also like to know how much pocket money are the inmates receiving as welfare aid. Is it sufficient to meet their expenditure at this moment?

Sir, may I seek your permission to discuss, under the present subhead, an item for which I have already tabled an amendment? My amendment* is on Head KB, Social Welfare, subhead AB 3001, regarding the Home for Destitute Persons. In view of the line of discussion, I thought if I were to speak now it would be easier for the Minister concerned to reply. * The amendment reads as follows: That the sum to be allocated for Head KB be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AB 3001.

All right.

Thank you, Sir. With reference to the care of the old and chronic sick, I would like to find out from the Minister what facilities as provided by the Government are available for the care of the old and the chronic sick in Singapore. I would also be appreciative if he could inform us whether the facilities available are sufficient to meet the present needs of Singapore. If, in his opinion, the facilities are inadequate, what would be the Government's policy towards the care of these old and chronic sick people? Secondly, with reference to the question posed by the Member for Anson regarding the temple mentioned in the local press on the 17th March this year, what steps would the Government take towards the supervision and control of establishments, such as that temple in question, which purportedly take care of the old and aged sick? It is common knowledge that there are in existence in Singapore a good number of such places which are neither licensed nor under the supervision of either the Ministry of Social Affairs, or the Council of Social Services. This temple in question has, in fact, been usurping its name by charging its inmates from $50 to $180 per head. I think there is a case for the Ministry to step in to regulate and, if possible, supervise its activities. At the same time, it should also supervise the provisions for the care of such people. 6.30 p.m. I shall now go on to a second topic with regard to grants or subventions to voluntary charitable organisations. May I ask the Minister what is the present Government policy in deciding grants to voluntary welfare organisations? It is well-known that no formula is used by the Ministry of Social Affairs with regard to the provision of voluntary grants to welfare organisations. Would the Ministry consider setting up a standard formula in granting aids to these voluntary organisations? A standard formula has been utilised in some countries, for example, Hong Kong, Japan and Australia, to good purpose. On the topic of a committee to review aid to voluntary organisations, I understand that a committee was set up by the Government last year to review grants to voluntary organisations. I was surprised to learn that the Singapore Council of Social Services which is, in fact, a statutory body concerned with matters relating to voluntary charitable organisations, was not consulted on this matter, and neither was it asked to sit on this committee. I would like, if possible, to find out the reason for its exclusion. Lastly, on the matter of public assistance, I think there are grounds today for us to ask the Ministry to reconsider the rates of public assistance. I know that this is an issue on which the Government has very definite ideas. We do not wish to encourage people to be passengers but, at the same time, we must realise that the cost of living has spiralled significantly over the last year. I can show Members concerned here that the public assistance scheme is certainly far below what can really provide for a subsistence level for the recipients. What I seek to find out is really this. Would the Ministry of Social Affairs consider a readjustment in the means test? This would, therefore, give incentive to a member or members of a family under welfare aid. We know that a family under public assistance can receive no more than $70 and another family under tuberculosis assistance not more than $120. If we were to stick to the means test under the present scheme, then if a member under the public assistance scheme were to come home with a salary of $120, in effect, he will be receiving only $10 from public assistance. This is no incentive at all for anyone in a family to go out and work in order to increase the family income. The same can be said for those under tuberculosis assistance. I am quite willing to provide details of such cases. My intention is that in readjusting the means test we can, with the present inflation and high cost of living, also provide these poor and needy people with incentive to work.

(In Malay): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, can I speak on my amendment on Head KB, subhead AD 1201*? * The amendment reads as follows: (3) That the sum to be allocated for Head KB be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AD 1201.

Yes.

(In Malay): Sir, I support the proposal by the Member for Sembawang. In view of the present situation where prices of food have increased sharply, there is a wide gap between the haves and the have-nots. The poor people are experiencing hardship under the pressures of inflation. They are now in a sorry condition and they need public assistance. They are suffering in silence. Yet the Government has not considered whether or not to increase the public assistance. The workers have so far received two salary increases, first, the 9 per cent wage supplement as recommended by the NWC and, second, the $25 interim wage supplement. But what about the people who depend on public assistance from the Social Welfare Department? Should they also not be given an increase in public assistance?

(In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also like to add my views on this subject. First of all, let mc say that I agree very much with what has been said by the Member for Kim Seng, and that is, that care for the aged and the sick, as is being given now, is not enough. In my view, it is not enough because I found that certain aged people who need certain care are not given proper care or accommodation as in the home for the aged. In this respect I feel the Government should remedy the situation. We all agree that the cost of living is now increasing. Everybody is hoping that members of a family will be able to get a job and earn some money to supplement the family expenditure. But unfortunately if there is one aged member in the family who needs particular care, and if the Government cannot look after such people, then can it be taken as a loss of income to the family concerned? From what I have seen of the various homes for the aged, the facilities there are very poor and their conditions are not hygienic. Whatever views I may have of these homes, T hope the Government would not overlook them. On the question of food for the aged, I feel that they do not have proper food. From what I have seen at the homes for the aged, the food provided cost no more than Si per day for each person. At a time when prices of food are so high, T feel that the amount of food provided is really too little. So in line with what the other Members have said, I would like to ask the Minister for Social Affairs to give us a definite answer as to whether at this moment he is considering any steps to remedy what needs to be remedied to improve their situation.

(In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, just now I heard various colleagues of mine appealing to the Minister for Social Affairs to increase the aid to the aged who are without any proper care. I very much agree with this view. However, I feel that the customary practice of providing aid to the aged is not the final solution in the long-term. I believe that the Government should try to seek other avenues. For instance, Government can look for certain light jobs for the aged so as to help them to be productive. In this way these aged people will find that not only are they occupied but they are also useful to the society. Therefore, they will not be a parasite to society.

Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to echo some of the comments and observations which have been made by previous speakers. I think the facilities and provisions in these institutions definitely need to be improved. As mentioned by previous speakers, the amount of public assistance given is very inadequate in view of the rapid economic development and high cost of living. Unless these facilities are improved and the subsistence allowances are also proportionately increased, I am sure the Minister will agree that eventually our society will have to pay more for the present neglect.

(In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not agree with the Member for Bras Basah in describing the aged, who are without care, as social parasites, because there is a Chinese saying that we should give due respect to the aged and befriend the childless and look after them. As we all know, these aged people do not have anyone to support them. We must, therefore, respect them and put them in the home for the aged. This is one way of showing our esteem and respect for them. To apply the term "social parasite" to these aged people is, therefore, improper. However, I share the sentiments expressed by the Member just now, when he said that the amount of public assistance to such people should he increased because they are in dire need. They would not try to fool the Government into giving them more aid. They are in actual need of more financial assistance. The present amount of assistance is merely a pittance to them and is only enough to keep them on a bare level of subsistence. It can neither fill their stomachs nor starve them to death. We should therefore increase the amount of public assistance in the present state of inflation. 6.45 p.m.

(In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to make a clarification. By "parasites", I do not mean the aged people who are without care are parasites. I was referring to certain able-bodied young people with good physique and good health. Such young people can actually take up various kinds of work in our society. But they are lazy, and do not want to take up proper jobs. They only want to receive public assistance. So my description is to apply to this kind of people.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, all these speeches by Members have deeply touched our hearts. We definitely share the deep concern of Members. But one principal guideline that we must know is that public assistance is meant to assist and not to be sufficient. However, for the less fortunate citizen who has to depend on public assistance given by the Social Welfare Department, in view of the present inflationary condition in Singapore, my Ministry is now exploring the possibility of an upward revision of the public assistance rates - An hon. Member: Hear, hear!

- even though it has been increased as recent as January last year. As an interim measure, we are now looking into the problem of giving further assistance to 7,042 public assistance cases to help them cope with the rising cost of living. A study is being undertaken to see in what way we can increase the family income by finding employment for the recipient himself or for members of his family. Consideration will be given to provide some form of assistance, if necessary, for those who because of their age and incapacity are unfit for employment, including the very old. Members of Parliament may rest assured that everything possible will be done to alleviate the hardship experienced by those people as a result of the rise in prices of essential goods. Sir, regarding the guideline and permit for entertainment of inmates of welfare homes of the Social Welfare Department, no permit is issued for purposes of visiting and entertaining inmates of welfare homes by community groups. What community groups are required to do, if they wish to visit a creche or a certain home, is to contact the Social Welfare Department for permission, not a permit, to do so. Normally such permission is readily granted. It is the policy of the department to welcome and encourage more people to visit the welfare homes to bring cheer to the inmates. The department has not refused any organisation a visit to the welfare homes, except in circumstances where such visits would embarrass the inmates of a particular home or upset law and order in the home. Proposed visits that might have been refused by the department would be visits by young males with long hair to a girls' home, or male visitors whose intention to visit a girls' home for ex-prostitutes was doubtful. In other circumstances, a proposed visit to entertain only a particular ethnic or racial group within a home has been discouraged, as such acts of discrimination or favouritism could upset the law and order in the homes which have many inmates of other races. Entertainment for the inmates of the homes should not be confined to any particular racial group because we cater for all the inmates in the homes. Examples of such cross-sectional entertainment are a grand dinner recently given by a commercial organisation to all the inmates of the Woodlands Home for the Aged and an annual Chinese New Year party when all inmates, irrespective of race or ethnic group, were entertained together. The Government welcomes welfare service by community groups but not racialist welfare. On the question of the particular old people's home, I assume the Member is referring to the Poh Thong See Buddhist Old People's Home in Aljunied Road. I must say that the Social Welfare Department has never refused to give a helping hand to the inmates of this particular Home, as alleged by a Member. On the contrary, I am satisfied that our Social Welfare Department has in the past done all it can to help the inmates of this particular Home. Out of the 80 inmates of the Home, 51 are paying cases, i.e, they are financially supported by their own relatives and dependants who pay monthly maintenance charges ranging from $60 to $180 per head to the monk in charge. The department has been helping the remaining cases, which are eligible, with public assistance allowances ranging from $28 to $50 per month and with other forms of help wherever possible. It is wrong to assume that the Social Welfare Department only acts after publicity is given in the press of any such stories. In fact, long before publicity was made in the press on this particular Home, the Social Welfare Department has during the past years been giving assistance to this Home in its usual quiet and unannounced manner. Every month Social Welfare officers visit this Home. The department has been consulting the relevant authorities on ways and means to improve the condition of living of the inmates. It has even gone out of its way to get voluntary social workers interested in this Home to give a helping hand. In fact, before publicity was given in the press, the department consulted the Singapore Council of Social Services, which is the co-ordinating body for such private voluntary welfare organisations, and the Ministry on the possible need to make alternative arrangements for eventual placement of the old inmates. The report that the monk is running the home single-handed is not true, as he has employed seven workers to attend to the needs of the old inmates and to keep the place clean and tidy. The recent outburst of publicity after so many years of the Home's existence is probably due to the realisation by the monk in charge that the Home is in its last few months of existence, in view of the forthcoming acquisition of the land for urban renewal purposes. Because of the imminent closure of this Home, the Ministry of Social Affairs has recently issued a press statement advising members of the public, who wish to make voluntary donations to this Home, to send their donations to the Singapore Council of Social Services indicating that the money should be used for the benefit of the old people of this Home. Sir, regarding the question of pocket money for the inmates of our homes, I have explained earlier that the majority of the inmates in the homes are paying cases, financially supported by their relatives. The remaining cases as clarified earlier are being looked after by the department under its public assistance scheme, and they are paid whatever allowance that they are eligible for, each case depending on its own merit. It must be appreciated that the Poh Thong Sec Buddhist Old People's Home is a private home run on a commercial basis, and it is not the general practice of the Government to give pocket money to the inmates of such private homes of which there are several in Singapore. The Member for Kim Seng has asked about the inclusion of the Singapore Council of Social Services in the committee for revision of grants for all the voluntary organisations. I would like to make this clear - the Singapore Council of Social Services is, in fact, a recipient of the grant. So it is quite unwise to put the Singapore Council of Social Services on the committee.

Sir, I have requested the inclusion of the Singapore Council of Social Services on the special committee to look into Government grants to various charitable organisations. The Parliamentary Secretary has put the role of the Council very well by calling it a co-ordinating body. The Council itself, if it is a recipient, is not, I think what its name implies. It is not a recipient in the same nature as another society like the Society for Aid to the Paralysed, because the Council itself is a co-ordinating body, i.e, a body that is responsible for co-ordinating the activities of various voluntary organisations doing welfare work. If the Government recognises the role of the Singapore Council of Social Services as that of a co-ordinating body, then on the matter of award of grants or assistance to various such bodies, I think Government should consider including this Council on that committee. This is only a request, and I hope the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will look into this matter.

Sir, if the Singapore Council of Social Services were to be the only parent body in charge of all the voluntary organisations, then it is all right to include it on the committee to review aid to voluntary organisations. But there are many other organisations which do not come within the scope of the Singapore Council of Social Services. If we include the Council on the committee, then, firstly, it is very difficult for the Council to face its members if the members do not get any aid. Secondly, it is also not easy for the Council to explain its position because of the other organisations which do not come under its scope. 7.00 p.m.

Sir, on a point of clarification. I believe that this committee to review aid to voluntary organisations is in many ways a product of the Ministry of Finance, and it is well-known to Council members that in actual fact even a senior official of the Finance Ministry was surprised to learn that the Singapore Council of Social Services was not included in this committee. I take this opportunity once again to appeal to the Minister to reconsider this matter. On other matters, Sir, first, I did also touch on the question of available facilities for the care of the aged and chronic sick. I am afraid there was no reply to this question. Secondly, with regard to the question of supervision or legislation to impose some degree of control over standards and facilities provided for by various accredited and non-accredited welfare organisations, we all know that there are a good number of homes that are run by the Government and the standards are good. There are also a number of welfare organisations that are grouped under the Council of Social Services, and the standards are also the minimum at least. But there are also in existence in Singapore a good number of purportedly called "welfare organisations" when they are, in actual fact, money-making organisations. I think something should be done to control these organisations. If we do not move in this direction, I am afraid, that the number of under-privileged old people in our society who are helpless will become subjects of exploitation by these so-called "welfare organisations".

Sir, I entirely agree with the view of the Member that some sort of investigation should be carried out to put things right in respect of such dubious welfare homes. In fact, they are mushrooming in Singapore. Of course, people who do not want to look after their aged relatives find it very convenient to send these old people to such homes. There is no condition attached to those people who send their unwanted relatives to these homes. Aged people who are admitted into our homes have to conform to certain conditions. For example, they must be alone, with no relatives, and must be really poor. But in the case of private welfare homes, some of the inmates can maintain themselves, as the Member himself knows, and they are paying as much as $180 per month. But, I think some sort of investigation should be done on this. In fact, I have discussed this with my officials and we are going to institute an investigation into this to find out how many such homes there are in Singapore. Pending such findings, I cannot say anything more on this.

Sir, I wish to thank the Minister for his reassurance.

Sir, sending the old and aged people to such homes is, I think, the modern way of living. All these old people are facing a lot of problems and difficulties. I believe the mentality of the younger generation today is that they prefer to send their aged parents to the various homes. This is a modern way of living which we cannot escape. In view of this, I would strongly urge the Minister for Social Affairs to consider the possibility of a project whereby all old and aged people may be given decent places to live so that they can be well taken care of, especially those who can afford to pay. This is a project where the Minister can give certain consideration.

Sir, as mentioned by the Member, there is such a home now in existence in Singapore, and that is the St. John's Home for the Aged. The capital sum required to build a fairly comfortable accommodation of flats or rooms costs a lot of money. Unless that capital sum is found by the voluntary organisations themselves -not the Government because I do not think the Government can afford to have such homes built for them. I think society has a responsibility towards the aged people in these days. Furthermore, with the announcement made by my colleague, the Minister for Finance, of the $750 tax relief allowance for the caring of aged parents, I hope this incentive will persuade the people to look after their aged relatives and parents, rather than just put them in old people's homes, whether run by the State or by voluntary organisations.

(In Mandarin): Sir, I thank the Minister and the Senior Parliamentary Secretary for their replies, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

(In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KB be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AC 1201. Sir, we know that creches for the care of children are essential in an industrialised society, especially when in our present state of industrialisation we are faced with a shortage of labour and are trying to recruit female labour for our factories. More creches should, therefore, be set up in the industrial estates. However, it is one thing to set up more creches, and it is another thing to improve the facilities in these creches. And if the creches are well-provided but the service is not adequate or that it is not up to the expectation of parents, the creches will only be a white elephant. On an open-house day for the creche in Jurong on 5th November last year, I made two suggestions to improve the creche. The first suggestion was that the creche should lengthen its opening hours. At present the creche is open only up to 5 o'clock. I hope the opening hours can be longer in order to help workers on shift duty, especially those living in Jurong area who work on second shift so that their children will be looked after. Therefore, I think creches should extend their opening hours. The second suggestion was that transport to the creches should be provided for the children, because during peak hours it is very inconvenient for mothers to carry their children to the creche and then take a bus to the factories. If there is transport to send the children to the creche, this will be most welcome to the parents, and more and more parents will send their children to the creche. I would also like to take this opportunity to ask the Minister whether he has any intention to set up another creche in Neighbourhood II in Jurong.

Sir, with the new format of presenting the Main and Development Estimates, somehow or other the subhead on Children's Centres and Creches completely escaped me. I must compliment the Member for Potong Pasir for being sharp and pointing this out to me earlier. If all of us exercise some consideration and restraint and speak under the proper subhead, it will make your job easier and so also will it make the Minister's job easier. I must also compliment the Member for Jurong for touching on most of the points I want to make. I too, like the Member for Jurong, urge that the few creches that we have should organise their activities in such a way that they will cater for the need of mothers who are engaged in shift work. Perhaps the Ministry of Social Affairs in collaboration with the People's Association, should also look into the possibility of utilising to the maximum the facilities and the infrastructure available in the community centres in Singapore and in the creches as well. In places where there are no creches, I believe the community centres could be used as creches in the mornings and even at night. Another question is: are there any plans to build a creche in Telok Blangah? The Member for Jurong wants two. Good luck to him if he gets them. Telok Blangah is a new town. This is a new complex just coming up, and I think there is the possibility of a need for a creche there because an area there is going to be an industrial estate.

(In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to talk on something about creches. I agree with the Member for Jurong that in industrial estates there should be more creches to cater for the needs of the working mothers so as to encourage them to work in factories. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Ministry of Social Affairs for the wonderful scheme in setting up creches in Singapore. On the 16th of this month I was invited to the opening ceremony of a new creche in Kallang Bahru. I found that the place was very spacious, occupying about 10,000 sq, ft. The facilities were very good and the staff were polite. They are bound to look after the children very well. Therefore, parents can be rest assured when they entrust their children to such staff. My point is that more creches should be built in the various areas, for example, in Sembawang. Very soon, Sembawang will be developed into an industrial area and I hope the Minister will remember to build a creche there. There should at least be a provision to build a creche in Sembawang.

Sir, I fully support the views expressed by the Members for Jurong and Telok Blangah with regard to the building of creches. I think it is important that employers, especially those investors who run factories, must themselves play an important part. If they want employees to work in their factories, it is high time they built small creches in their various factories. If I am not mistaken, they have such facilities in Japan. So it is high time they did something about it.

Sir, I rise to support all those Members who praised the establishment of creches. I should say that wider publicity should be given by the Ministry to encourage the women to leave their children in the creches and go to work. At the moment the hours for mothers to put the children in the creches are very unrealistic. I should say that it caters purely for the majority of office workers or teachers. It is possible that some housewives would want to send their children to these creches so that they could go out to play mahjong. We have to change the hours to suit the shift workers. If we are going to encourage married women with children to work in industrial concerns on shift duty, I think we have to change the opening hours of the creche. Instead of opening at 8 am., it should be 7.30 a.m, so that they can have time to put the children in the creche and go to work. 7.15 p.m.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, in reply to the matters raised by the Member for Jurong. I am glad to say, Sir, that the two suggestions made by him are being looked into by the Social Welfare Department. As for the extension of hours of opening of the creche, the Member may be pleased to know that, though the official closing time of the Jurong Town creche is 5.00 p.m., parents have been allowed to come back to the creche to collect their children as late as 6.30 p.m, or even 7.00 p.m. Presently, a survey is being conducted to find out ways and means to improve the facilities and services available in the creches. The results and findings of the survey, which include the Jurong Town creche, will determine whether it is feasible to consider an extension of the hours of opening of creches and the service of transporting the children to the creches. However, such extra services can only be carried out if there is sufficient response from the parents, the Social Welfare Department was most disappointed when the extension of creche hours at the Toa Payoh creche met with very poor response. As creche services are very heavily subsidised by the Government, the Member for Jurong will appreciate that unless there is ample response, it will not be feasible to extend the opening hours of the creche for the sake of a handful of children. Furthermore, any provision of transport services for children, if found necessary eventually, will have to be borne by the parents concerned, as the Government is already very heavily subsidising the creche services rendered to each child who attends the creche every day. The Social Welfare Department has made enquiries from parents using the Jurong Town creche, and learned that only five parents have so far expressed the need for transport for their children. The result of the survey presently being conducted will decide whether the need to provide transport facilities is justified or not. The Social Welfare Department maintains that it would be pointless to arrange for a NTUC van or bus with a capacity of 20 to 30 children to carry just 6 to 8 children who require transport. As for a second creche in Jurong Town, Sir, he will be pleased to know that the Government is planning, with very close co-operation and assistance of the Jurong Town Corporation, to build one more creche in Jurong Town, most probably in Neighbourhood II. The department is at the moment actively consulting the Jurong Town Corporation on this matter, and it is hoped that this second creche in Jurong Town will materialise soon and will be a boon to the mothers working in Jurong. On the point raised by the Member for Telok Blangah, Sir, he is right in putting up the need for the establishment of more creches, not only from the point of view of promoting child welfare, but because we must actively encourage more women to take up full-time employment to overcome the shortage of labour. In fact, the Government's policy is to build more creches especially in housing estates, where there is a demand for such facilities. Creches will be established in the major housing estates built by the Housing and Development Board as part of its social services to residents therein and to people either living or working near these estates. As such, there is no necessity to make provision in the Estimates for the building of creches. The normal practice is for the HDB to build creches within the housing estates. Once the creches are built, they are rented out to the Social Welfare Department which will provide the creche service. If there is a demonstrated need for creches to be established outside the housing estate, then provision will be sought in the Estimates for the creche. The Member may be pleased to know that the Social Welfare Department is now negotiating with the HDB for a new creche to be built in the Telok Blangah New Town. The Government is also planning to establish creches in other Housing and Development Board estates where there is a high concentration of working mothers for the benefit of the Member for Sembawang. It is not possible, Sir, to use the community centres and their facilities for the running of creches. The Member, I am sure, is well aware of the intensive use of community centre facilities. In any case, creches should be specially designed with special equipment and facilities to cater for very young children, from babies of a few months old to children of six years old. The Member for Bukit Ho Swee has rightly mentioned, Sir, that private concerns should play a part in making available more creches for the benefit of the workers. This is an area of community welfare in which the private sector, the factories and industrial and business establishments, can play a part, either individually or jointly with others. Commercial and industrial establishments can set up creches, whether big or small, as part of their welfare facilities for their staff. This helps to discourage job-hopping and ensure that investment on the skill given to female employees is not wasted when they stop work just because they have children to look after at home. In my recent visit to factories to encourage the employment of handicapped persons, I raised this question of establishing creches with many employers in the private sector. The response from the employers was encouraging, and some of them have already contacted the Social Welfare Department for assistance in creche planning. 1 would like to thank the Member for Sembawang, Sir, for his compliment on the newly opened creche at Kallang Bahru. In fact, I was told that he was the first person to register his child for admission to the creche. Regarding the question raised by the Member for Boon Teck, the hours of all creches in Singapore are from 7 a.m, to 6 p.m. I think this is quite fair to both working mothers and mothers who want to play mahjong, as he has put it.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, in line with the Government's policy on family planning, does the Minister not think there is a need for these creches to introduce rules saying that for those mothers with more than two children an increased fee will be charged if they send their children to these creches? In this way we can help make family planning more effective. Otherwise if we go on building creches, and they go on giving births, family plan- ning is going to take a downturn, and 1 do not think this is the right way to help our family planning to be more effective.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, what I am trying to point out to the Minister is that the creche at this moment purely caters for those who work during normal office hours and not for those who work in a factory running three shifts. For instance, for this month, a shift worker may work in the morning shift, but next month when she is on night shift, she may also want to put her children in the creche. So my request is whether the hours can be lengthened so that those who work in the afternoon shift or in the night shift can also send their children to the creches. At this moment, I should say that the response in Toa Payoh is good. I must compliment the people running the creche, for they are doing a good job. What I would like to say is: can we maximise the use of these creches so that all industrial workers who are married with children can make use of these facilities?

(In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, in reply to my remarks the Minister said that there was a survey on the need for transport and that the response was not very good. What I would like to point out to him is that those people who make use of the creche in Jurong Town at present either live near the creche or they may have their own transport arrangements. But those who have transport problems have not been able to send their children to the creche. And I do not know whether there is any response from such people to the survey. I would suggest to the Minister that if at all a survey is to be conducted, it should be a thorough survey covering other people living in the area so as to reflect the actual needs of the people.

Sir, I want to thank the Member for Boon Teck for his suggestion. If there is a need for the hours to be extended to include the shift workers, we will certainly consider it. As for the point raised about transport, we did a very thorough survey into this problem and we found that only five parents require transport. But being a man who is open to suggestions, I will satisfy the Member's curiosity and direct another survey to find out how many people really want such transport service. If the number justifies it, we will have a transport service for the children. As for the Member for Bras Basah, he has got a point there, Sir,I will bear his suggestion in mind, and when the time is appropriate, I shall then take the necessary action.

(In Mandarin): I beg leave to withdraw, Sir. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (3)* (*See col. 600), Encik Rahmat Kenap has already spoken. Amendment (4), Mr Hwang. 7.30 p.m.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for head KB he reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AG 1201. Sir, this is an item in respect of the Counselling and Advice Section. From my own experience I have found that this particular section is providing valuable service. I had occasion to refer a large number of cases involving my constituents, to this particular section. The officers have always been able to give useful advice, guidance and assistance. This i5 one area of Government service which, in my opinion, should he further extended by establishing branches in selected localities. Sir, on going through the Estimates, one gets the impression that for those departments which are not revenue-producing there appears to be a reluctance on the part of Government to expand or to improve upon existing services, even though there may he a need for improvement.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Jalan Kayu has made a constructive suggestion and I would like to thank him for the compliments he has given to the Counselling and Advice Section of the Social Welfare Department. The Social Welfare Department is looking into the possibility of setting up branches not only to give counsel and advice but also to render other aspects of social welfare service so as to make social welfare services more readily accessible to people staying in different parts of Singapore. Whether or not it is possible to decentralise social welfare services will depend on the availability of funds, premises and trained personnel.

In view of the very satisfactory answer, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The following amendment stood in the name of Mr J. F. Conceicao --

Mr Conceicao is not here. Dr Ong Leong Boon has already spoken on his amendment+ (+see col. 598). The sum of $9,432,920 for Head KB ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $600,000 for Head KB ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. Head KC--

Amendment (1)++, Mr N. Govindasamy is not here. Mr P. Govindaswamy. ++ The amendment, standing in the names of Messrs N. Govindasamy, P. Govindaswamy and Hwang Soo Jin, reads as follows: (1) That the sum to be allocated for Head KC be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1109.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KC be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1109. Sir, within the last few years, Singapore has experienced some tragic fires. The Robinson fire was the worst, where innocent lives were lost. If sufficient safety precautions had been taken, such a monstrous disaster could not have resulted. But that is the past, and from this single fire, we can learn a lesson. May I ask at this time what compulsory measures have been imposed on large departmental stores where many members of the public patronise, so that we may not experience another "Robinson fire"? Sir, there have been complaints of cases where the hoses leak and the fire engines arriving late. Surely we cannot boast of an efficient fire service if the hoses leak when connected to the fire engines or to the hydrants. If that is the case, a four-gallon pail of water is a more efficient fire-fighting equipment than a fire engine which comes late and with hoses that leak. What is being done with the fire service to up-date it with modern equipment? The fire-fighting equipment installed in many establishments serve as very nice decorations in those places. Even though they are there, I wonder whether the Fire Service can insist that all the staff are taught to use the fire-fighting equipment. Nothing is more disastrous than seeing a factory go up in flames, when at the initial stages the flames could have been controlled or stopped from spreading by using the simple fire-fighting equipment installed in the factory. At this point, may I draw attention to the fact that some of our schools are hardly equipped with any fire-fighting equipment. Even if there are fire extinguishers around, the teachers do not even know how to use them. Do we have to have a disaster on a scale larger than the Robinson fire to prove that there is a lack of fire-fighting service in our schools? I wonder whether this Ministry is co-operating with the Ministry of Education over this matter.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, of late we have read in the press quite a lot about the understaffing position in the Fire Brigade, indicating that they are working only with 60 per cent strength. Despite the limitation in manpower, I must say that they have performed their duties very well. I believe the turnover rate of staff in the Fire Brigade is also very great, and the main complaint seems to be that the fireman`s salary scale is very poor. It is time that something was done to look into the question of their remuneration. To my mind, the fireman's job carries as much risk as that of a policeman. In the case of the Police, there was the Lee Soo Ann Commission which had ended increments of salaries and In the case of the Fire Brigade are we not going to do something about it? Are we going to step up the recruitment? Another aspect of the Fire Service is this. I think it was only last week that our attention was drawn to a fairly serious fire in one of the Housing Board flats. I remember watching the incident on television. The building is a fairly low-rise flat, about five storeys high, and the firemen were fighting the fire from a ladder. I wonder what will happen if a fire should occur in a block of flats 20 storeys high. I do not think the ladder is going to reach that height. What about the water pressure? How is it going to reach all the way up to the top? I do not know when was the last time all the Housing Board flats were put under close examination to make sure that the fire-fighting facilities are adequate and that the water pressure is sufficient to go up to the top of the building. I think the highest building in Toa Payoh is more than 20 storeys high. How about the exits? In the case of private buildings the present requirements for fire-escapes and emergency exits are very stringent. However, in the case of the Housing Board flats, we do not see any fire-escapes at all. What will happen if there should be a fire in a high-rise block of flats in one of our housing estates? What will happen then? Another point I would like to bring up is the question of modernisation of our equipment. Under the Development Estimates there are provisions for fire tenders. But how up-to-date are these fire tenders? Moreover, are we sending our fire officers abroad to learn more about the latest techniques of fire-fighting? With the tendency for buildings to go higher and higher, there has been a suggestion to make use of helicopters. Are we looking into this matter? There are a hundred and one suggestions one can think of. As the Member for Anson has pointed out earlier on, the Robinson fire has certainly opened our eyes. I think we will be failing in our duty if we do not look into all these areas fairly promptly. I would certainly urge that every attention be paid to the safety of the Housing Board flats. Although I do not have Housing Board flats in my constituency at the moment, I shall have them very soon as they are under construction. Therefore, I feel that this is a matter which concerns me as well.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Fire Brigade has always insisted on a high standard of fire preventive measures in buildings, whether they be private or public buildings or whether the building is a block of Housing Board flats. Previously the Housing Board was responsible for prescribing and enforcing such requirements in their buildings on behalf of the Building Control Division. The recommendations made by the Fire Brigade would ensure that in the event of a fire, protected staircases would be available to facilitate evacuation and that the construction of fire walls would minimise the possibility of a wild fire involving the entire building. All buildings that would be frequented by members of the public are also required to install automatic fire detection systems connected to fire stations, and in-built fire-fighting facilities, such as risers and hose rails, were prescribed for all buildings for the use of firemen in an emergency. The Member for Anson may wish to know that the Robinsons building which he mentioned was erected in 1910, and it was not built in accordance with the current regulations governing fire protection measures. The fire precautionary measures in Robinsons building were clearly inadequate by present-day standards. The Commission of Inquiry into the Robinson's Fire was satisfied that the building could not have been saved by the time the Fire Brigade was summoned. The fire had been allowed to be nursed in the loft stores without being detected, and the fire-fighting squad was fighting the fire at the wrong location. With regard to the leaking hoses, the Member may wish to know that a certain amount of leaking was intended in certain types of hoses to saturate the hose jacket and to protect the hoses from catching fire. Both the Commission of Inquiry and my Ministry are satisfied that the Fire Brigade has maintained its forces well. With regard to the complaint that fire-engines sometimes arrive late, may I point out that these allegations have never been proven. On the contrary, our records show that the Brigade has always responded promptly to fire-calls. Perhaps people in distress are often prone to over-react and exaggerate. The Member may also wish to know that the Fire Brigade is ready at any time to educate members of the public in fire-fighting and fire prevention. Since the beginning of this year the Brigade has given lectures to youth organisations, welfare homes, Government and quasi-Government bodies and industrial concerns on 13 separate occasions. Approximately 200 school children and industrial workers visited the fire stations and were entertained to a demonstration of fire-drills, fire-fighting and rescue exercises. Through the years the Brigade has been advising the Ministry of Education on fire protection measures in the schools. The Brigade has also planned some programmes on fire education for the schools, which would include lectures, exhibitions, film shows and fire-drills. We hope to implement such programmes during the course of the year. 7.45 p.m. On the question of whether the equipment for fire-fighting in high-rise buildings is adequate or not, I am happy to affirm that the Brigade is equipped to fight fires in high-rise buildings. The Brigade has a total of 37 modern fire-fighting appliances, 27 of these appliances can each pump 500 to 1,000 gallons of water per minute at a reasonably high pressure. The Brigade is also equipped with two mechanical ladders reaching a maximum height of 100 feet and one hydraulic platform of 65 feet high. The upper floors of high-rise buildings are obviously above the range of this equipment. However, the modern method of extinguishing fires in high-rise buildings is to fight the fires from within. No mechanical ladder in the world is high enough to reach levels above 150 feet or so. Hence, the Fire Brigade has previously insisted on stringent fire protection measures in high-rise buildings. However, this function has been taken over by the Building Control Division under the Ministry of National Development since 1st August, 1973. With effect from 1st April, 1974, all other five regulatory functions, including the licensing of dangerous trades, will be transferred to the same authority, so that henceforth the Fire Brigade will be able to concentrate on fire-fighting. On the question of use of helicopters, this is being discussed by the Ministry with the Ministry of Defence. The use of helicopters is more for rescue than fighting fires. Sir, on the question of the shortage of staff in the Singapore Fire Brigade, I am happy to inform the House that the Ministry's negotiation with the Amalgamated Union of Public Employees on the salary revision of the Fire Service has been successfully concluded. I have the new salary scales here but, because of lack of time, I am not able to inform Members of the full details. But if they like, I can circulate it to them for their information. Sir, it is common knowledge that the salaries and conditions of service in the Singapore Fire Brigade are not as attractive as those offered in the private sector. There were few incentives to attract good recruits into the service and the Brigade also found it difficult to retain experienced and promising officers. This was especially so during the past three years when the growth of industrialisation in the Republic created golden opportunities for experienced fire officers to join the private sector as fire and safety officers. Such careers in the industries offered better salaries and were less hazardous than the job of a fire officer in the Singapore Fire Brigade. The shortage of staff is also due to crimping by the private sector. Last year alone, the Fire Brigade lost one divisional officer, one assistant divisional officer and eight station officers who were top people in the service to the shipyards and petroleum companies. In the public interest, such crimping must cease. The firms should employ new staff instead of taking experienced officers and men from the Brigade. The Brigade would be only too pleased to assist in giving the needed training to them, if necessary. Whatever it is, Sir, it is hoped that with the new salary revision of the Fire Service we will be able to retain our experienced men and attract more candidates of fine calibre into the service.

Sir, the point on fire safety at Housing Board flats is still bothering me because there have been a number of fires in flats. I am just wondering whether the Fire Brigade cannot work together with the Housing and Development Board. The staff of the Fire Brigade would have had some experience. They would have investigated and come to certain conclusions, and perhaps it is about time that they made a thorough survey to find out whether or not the existing facilities in all these flats are, in fact, adequate. What I am particularly concerned are those high-rise buildings. I do appreciate that there are no ladders high enough to go up to the 20th storey and, therefore, fighting a fire in high-rise buildings is to fight it from within. But the point is that if within the building there are no adequate facilities, then how are they going to fight the fire? They cannot fight from without and they cannot fight from within. On the question of adequate exits, fire escapes and so on, I think none of the Housing Board flats has got emergency fire exits, extra staircase, and so on.

Sir, I wish to raise two points. Firstly, the hoses should be checked every now and then. Secondly, when there is a fire, vehicles on the road must make way for the fire-engines, because if there is a traffic jam the fire-engines cannot go through. The Minister should ask the Traffic Police to advise the public to make way for the fire-engines.

Sir, there has been a discussion between my Ministry and the Ministry of National Development on the question of fire safety precautions in Housing Board flats. The Fire Brigade has put up quite a number of suggestions and recommendations which are now being studied by the Ministry of National Development. We have to wait and see what action will be taken by the other side. On the question raised by the Member for Anson, the hoses are checked and maintained, not every now and then but everyday. But, as I have said, certain types of hoses must be allowed to leak a little so that the hoses are saturated and that keeps them cool and prevent them from getting burnt. In a big fire, the heat is tremendous and some hoses do catch fire. On the question of traffic jams and the suggestion that drivers should be told that, whenever a fire-engine is answering a call, they should keep to the side and allow the fire-engine to pass through, the fire-engines are equipped with very loud-sounding sirens. Every driver knows that he has to give way to the fire-engine. But if there is a traffic jam, nobody can move and so the fire engine also cannot move.

Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

(In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head KC be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 3001. Sir, this item is in connection with the setting up of a fire station at Jurong. If my memory serves me right, this allocation has appeared in the Estimates for many years, sometimes more sometimes less. Although we see this allocation many a time in the Estimates the fire station has yet to be built. We can only hear the sound of requests but we cannot see the fire station in existence. Recently, certain factories have been burnt to the ground, and the National Productivity Board itself was nearly burnt down. I feel that the Minister should pay more attention to this question of building a fire station at Jurong. In fact, he should give it top priority and should not postpone it year after year. I would like the Minister to give me an assurance now that the fire station in question will be built within the next financial year, and not postponed again to another year when I will have to raise the matter and so wasting my time as well as his time.

Sir, I would like to congratulate the Member for his patience, tolerance and keenness to see that a worthwhile project like the fire station at Jurong is completed to the end, as he has asked this question on several occasions. Sir, the project was unavoidably delayed, first, because funds were not made available by Government, and then because time was required to plan for the station. The Member may wish to know that piling work for the station has now been completed and tenders have been invited for the construction of the fire station. Provided there are no snags in the way, the fire station should be completed by the end of this year and could be operational early in the new year. In the meantime, I would plead with him to he a little more patient.

(In Mandarin): Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation and assurance, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $5,545,790 for Head KC ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $1,433,200 for Head KC ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. Pursuant to a resolution of the House, Mr Deputy Speaker thereupon left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates of Expendi- ture for the financial year 1st April, 1974 to 31st March, 1975, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

So be it.

Resolved, "That Parliament do now adjourn." --[Encik Othman Bin Wok]. Adjourned accordingly at Two minutes to Eight o'clock p.m.