Hansard, 1985-05-14

PERMISSION TO MEMBERS TO BE ABSENT Under the provisions of clause 2(d) of Article 46 of the Constitution of the Republic of Singapore, the following Members have been granted permission to be or to remain absent from sittings of Parliament (or any Committee of Parliament to which they have been appointed) for the periods stated:- Dr Toh Chin Chye (Rochore) - from 8th to 22nd April, 1985. Dr Yeo Ning Hong (Kim Seng), Minister for Communications and Information, Second Minister for Defence and Second Minister for National Development - from 9th to 22nd April, 1985. Dr Tay Eng Soon, P.B.M. (River Valley), Minister of State, Ministry of Education and Ministry of Communications and Information - from 11th to 13th April, 1985. Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong), Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education - from 19th to 27th April, 1985. Mr S. Dhanabalan (Kallang), Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Community Development and Leader of the House - from 22nd to 26th April, 1985. Mr Lee Yiok Seng (Bukit Panjang), Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development and Government Whip - from 25th April to 7th May, 1985. Mr Tang See Chim (Chua Chu Kang) - from 26th April to 1st May and from 25th May to 30th June, 1985. Mr Yeo Cheow Tong (Hong Kah), Minister of State, Ministry of Health and Ministry of Foreign Affairs - from 27th April to 10th May, 1985. Mr Leong Horn Kee (Thomson) - from 27th April to 12th May, 1985. Mr Lau Ping Sum (Yio Chu Kang) -from 29th April to 10th May, 1985. Mr Ong Pang Boon (Telok Ayer) - from 2nd to 10th May, 1985. Mr Chin Harn Tong (Aljunied), Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Home Affairs - from 6th to 23rd May, 1985. Mr Wong Kan Seng (Kuo Chuan), Minister of State, Ministry of Community Development and Ministry of Communications and Information - from 8th to 20th May, 1985. Mr Phua Bah Lee (Tampines), Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence - from 8th to 20th May, 1985. Mr Tang Guan Seng (Khe Bong) - from 8th to 20th May, 1985. Encik Zulkifli bin Mohammed (Eunos) - from 8th to 20th May, 1985. Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh) - from 8th to 22nd May, 1985. Dr Dixie Tan (Ulu Pandan) - from 9th to 25th May, 1985. Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol) - from 9th to 30th May, 1985. Maj Fong Sip Chee (Kampong Chai Chee) - from 13th May to 7th June, 1985. Dr Yeoh Ghim Seng (Joo Chiat), Speaker - on 14th May, 1985. Mr S. Rajaratnam (Kampong Glam), Senior Minister, Prime Minister's Office - on 14th May, 1985. Encik Abbas Abu Amin, P.P.A. (Pasir Panjang) - from 15th to 22nd May, 1985. Dr Wong Kwei Cheong, P.B.M. (Cairnhill), Minister of State, Ministry of Trade and Industry - from 15th to 23rd May, 1985. Mr Teo Chong Tee (Changi), Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Community Development - from 15th to 31st May, 1985. Mr Goh Choon Kang (Braddell Heights) - from 18th May to 2nd June, 1985. BG Lee Hsien Loong (Teck Ghee), Minister of State, Ministry of Defence and Ministry of Trade and Industry and Deputy Government Whip - from 20th to 25th May, 1985. Mr Teh Cheang Wan (Geylang West), Minister for National Development - from 20th to 30th May, 1985. Dr Koh Lip Lin (Nee Soon) - from 20th May to 16th June, 1985. Dr Ow Chin Hock (Leng Kee) - from 24th May to 13th June, 1985. Mr S. Chandra Das (Chong Boon) - from 25th May to 8th June, 1985. Mr Sia Khoon Seong (Moulmein) - from 27th May to 19th June, 1985. TAN SOO KHOON Deputy Speaker Parliament of Singapore

ASSENTS TO BILLS PASSED The following Bills were assented to by the Acting President of the Republic of Singapore on the dates stated: 29th March, 1985 (i) Supply Bill; and (ii)Supplementary Supply Bill. 6th May, 1985 (i) Adoption of Children (Amendment) Bill. TAN SOO KHOON Deputy Speaker Parliament of Singapore The House being met, the Clerk at the Table informed the House of the absence of Mr Speaker from this day's Sitting. Whereupon Mr Deputy Speaker proceeded to the Table and took the Chair pursuant to the Standing Order.

NON-CONSTITUENCY MEMBER - (Announcement by Mr Deputy Speaker) On 8th March, 1985, Parliament, by resolution pursuant to section 51B of the Parliamentary Elections Act (Chapter 50), -

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) asked the First Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence what plans the Government has to improve the lot of families in our society whose gross income is less than $750.00 per month.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson has asked how the Government intends to improve the lot of families in our society whose gross income is less than $750 per month. A family who earns $750 per month is not poor. It can afford to own its own 3-room HDB flat. The lot of such a family has improved as the fortunes of Singapore have risen. In his Address at the opening of Parliament, the President said: 'My Government will pay particular attention to those who find it difficult to keep up with the pace of change.' These are the older families earning less than $500 per month and whose capacity to earn more is limited. These are the families I would regard as the relatively poor in Singapore. They form about 12% of the population. Even here, we have made dramatic progress. In 1977, 475,000 persons earned less than $500 per month. In 1980, the number dropped to 400,000. In 1982, the figure dropped further to 306,000, a reduction of 36% in five years. This has been achieved through economic growth and education. Our economic growth has been rapid - from 1974 to 1984, it has been 7.9% per year. The expanding economy meant more jobs and better wages. Everyone could move up, provided he made the efforts. The incomes of the poor went up even faster than that of the general population. In the same decade, they increased nearly twice as quickly as incomes of the average wage earner: by 4.2 times as compared to 2.4 times, in real terms. Without growth, there would have been widespread poverty in Singapore. Our Government will therefore continue to target for economic growth in the years to come. Education is the other key to unlock families from poverty. The better educated and trained a person is, the more productive will be the job which he can do, and the more will he earn. The statistics show this clearly. Among the poor wage earners, fully 56% have less than PSLE qualifications, while among average and above average wage earners, only 32% have less than PSLE. This is why the Government has emphasized, and will continue to emphasize, education as a means of upgrading the next generation. Education is of course not only a matter for the schools and the teachers. It is also a matter for the homes and the parents. Poor families with many children will have great difficulty giving all of them adequate parental care and attention. Furthermore, each child will only have a small share of the limited resources in the family. As a result, the children's school work will suffer, and so will the chances of the family making good in the next generation. This is why our Government strongly encourages poorer families not to have more than two children. The $10,000 cash grant scheme is designed with this purpose in mind. The scheme also serves the purpose of helping poorer families own their own homes. The sum of $10,000 is more than adequate for a down-payment on a 3-room flat. Helping the poor to own their own homes is an important objective of our Government. Then they will not feel left out. Their sense of commitment and belonging to our society will increase. Their children will have a better environment to grow up in. Besides the cash grant scheme, the HDB is considering making it easier for the poor to buy flats. At present, applicants of HDB home ownership flats are required to pay a 20% down-payment at the time of application. The HDB is considering reducing the down-payment to 5% for tenants of HDB rental blocks, if they buy a 4-room Simplified or smaller flats. If the tenants wish to buy a 4-room Model A or bigger flats, the down-payment will be 10%, with another 10% payable upon allocation of flats. The HDB will grant loans to the buyers for the remaining sum. It will also increase the maximum repayment period, from the present limit of 20 years, to 25 years. Even with the easier repayment terms, the families will have to earn enough income to pay for the flats. One way to increase the family income is for both husband and wife to work. Many wives from poorer families presently do not work. They cannot afford to pay for child care services. To help them to do so, the Ministry of Community Development is embarking on a programme to provide more child care centres in housing estates at affordable prices.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) $150.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Then mothers can leave their children in good hands while they work. The Government's approach to the problem of the poor is therefore high economic growth, universal education and skill training, small families, home ownership, and working wives. It has in large measure succeeded, although it has not eliminated poverty altogether. Our experience has confirmed that welfare and generous handouts are not the solution to the problem.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Sir, does the First Deputy Prime Minister appreciate that he has not really added very much more to what was said by his junior Minister, the Minister of State for Defence and Trade and Industry, when he spoke at Guild House sometime ago? Would the First Deputy Prime Minister say whether the Minister of State was speaking on behalf of the Government when he said that the eradication of poverty must remain a mirage? Is this Government resigned to poverty in Singapore for a section of its people?

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister of State for Defence and Trade and Industry is a member of this Government. His views are therefore not just personal views, but views which reflect the thinking and the philosophy of the Government. I do not believe when he said that the eradication of poverty is a mirage, he meant that we are not making the effort to eradicate poverty. What he meant, Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, is that it is not possible in any society to totally eradicate poverty. We can make all the effort to improve the lot of the lower-income group, but the reality is, no matter what we do, there will always be a group of people who remain relatively poor in our society, and in any country for that matter. Take the United States for that matter. The US has been trying to eradicate poverty with welfare programmes, food stamps for the poor, welfare payments for the aged, but has it succeeded in totally eradicating poverty? And the United States is a much wealthier society than Singapore. We will make the effort. We will try to the best of our ability to keep the number as low as possible. But we have to be realistic. It is not possible to totally eliminate poverty from any society.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Do I then understand the First Deputy Prime Minister to say that the Government is resigned to poverty in Singapore? Does he not think that the duty of any socialist government is to commit itself to the eradication of poverty? Am I to understand that this Government does not propose to commit itself? Secondly, may I ask the First Deputy Prime Minister, when he says that education is the key, what steps the Government is taking to provide better education for the children from these poor families? Would the Government consider my suggestion in this House in the debate on the President's Address to give child allowances to children from these poor families who are in primary schools or secondary schools so that they could better their education in the schools by the provision of more reading books and other aids?

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson should have listened carefully to my reply. As a Government, we are committed to improving the lot of all Singaporeans. And as stated in the President's Address, we will pay special attention to those who are not able to keep pace with the economic progress of Singapore. When I said that we could not totally eradicate poverty, I also said that we have to be realistic. As a Government, we are committed to improving the lot of these people, but do not expect that total eradication of poverty can be achieved. 11.15am

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Why not?

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) No society has done so and I hope that the Member for Anson would be able to tell us how this can be done in Singapore. We have been asking him for his programme of action on many things.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Why don't you resign?

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) So why not tell us in due course how he plans to totally eradicate poverty in Singapore? If he has a solution, he should in fact tell it to us.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) It is a secret plan!

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Then he can be sure of winning the votes of the poor. But if he is unable to come out with any solution, then he should listen to us. Our means of reducing poverty in Singapore is through education, economic growth and a few specific programmes to help them, as I have mentioned. He has suggested giving child allowances to help children from poorer families to buy books for their education. It is not necessary for us to provide cash grants in the form of child allowances to such families. School fees are free. The miscellaneous charges are minimal. And any poor family can always apply to the Education Ministry for bursaries, for textbook grants. The schools have adequate facilities in the form of books, libraries, teaching aids, to help these children. There is no need for any special child allowances for these families. You cannot eradicate poverty by giving allowances, hand-outs to poor families, as proven in programmes elsewhere. In the United States, hand-outs create more poverty. They do not solve the problem of the poor.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, is it not true that children who could not afford to pay for textbooks could apply to the .Education Ministry and they would get free textbooks?

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) He has answered it. Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, would the First Deputy Prime Minister say how the provision of $10,000 which is to enable the HDB to get rid of its houses, would enable the children of these poor families to be better educated, if he says, and quite rightly, that the only way to lift them out of this poverty is through education?

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS - LOW-INCOME FAMILIES - (Plans to improve their lot) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, they are actually two separate issues. First, on the education of children from poor families. No child in Singapore is prevented from attending school simply because he is unable to pay. Nobody in Singapore is denied an education, just because he is poor. A child coming from a poor familiy can apply to the school for free textbooks and for other financial assistance. So education should not be confused with this cash grant scheme of $10,000 to help the family to improve their home environment. The cash grant will enable poor families to upgrade from congested old rental blocks to a better environment. And with a small family living in a better environment, the parents can devote greater attention to the children, give them more resources, and a better environment for the children to spend time on their studies. With the financial assistance given by the Education Ministry, they can hopefully proceed beyond PSLE, go on to the 'O' level, and for some of them, even to the Universities.

HDB MULTI-STOREY CAR PARKS - (Building of) To ask the Minister for National Development, in view of the shortage of car parking lots in many Housing and Development Board housing estates, whether there are plans to build multi-storey car parks to alleviate this problem; and, if so, how many such car parks HDB intends to build and in which housing estates.

HDB MULTI-STOREY CAR PARKS - (Building of) Question No. 2, Sir.

HDB MULTI-STOREY CAR PARKS - (Building of) Sir, the HDB has long-term plans to build multi-storey car parks in HDB estates where there is a shortage of parking lots and insufficient space to build surface car parks. Studies are being made on the parking needs of all HDB estates.

FUNERAL PARLOURS IN HDB ESTATES - (Policy) asked the Minister for National Development (a) what is the current policy of having funeral parlours sited within Housing and Development Board housing estates; and (b) whether the plan to build one at Clementi Avenue 6 has been cancelled.

FUNERAL PARLOURS IN HDB ESTATES - (Policy) Sir, the proposal to build funeral parlours in HDB estates is still being studied by the HDB. The HDB will take into account the sensitivities of residents to this new concept when finalizing the policy. Unlike traditional funeral parlours in Chinatown, funeral parlours in HDB estates, if built, will be self-contained, air-conditioned buildings sited away from apartment blocks. The view of the funeral parlours from apartment blocks will also be adequately screened. Funeral rites will be totally confined within the building to prevent disturbance to the neighbourhood. The plan to build a funeral parlour at Clementi Avenue 6 has been deferred pending a policy decision on the matter.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) asked the Minister for National Development (a) what were the values of successful awards for construction of Housing and Development Board flats at Potong Pasir New Town; (b) what was the number of units of flats built for each of the successful awards; c) what were the types of flats built for each of the successful awards; and (d) what was the average cost of each flat built in relation to the successful awards.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the values of structural works on contracts 1 to 7 at Potong Pasir Estate, inclusive of piling but excluding infrastructural, professional and administrative overheads, financing and land costs, are as follows: Contract 1 - $27,334,993.79 Contract 2 - $33,670,441.29 Contract 3 - $27,297,283.11 Contract 4 - $24,841,645.83 Contract 5 - $25,196,386.46 Contract 6 - $21,218,370.79 Contract 7 - $17,130,589.65 Total - $176,689,700 (rounded off) The numbers of flats built are: Contract 1 - 516 units Contract 2 - 614 units Contract 3 - 405 units Contract 4 - 532 units Contract 5 - 537 units Contract 6 - 558 units Contract 7 - 472 units Total - 3,634 units The types of flats built for each contract are as follows: Contracts 1 & 2 - 3-room Model A, 4-room Model A and 5-room Model A Contract 3 - 3-room Model A, 4-room Model A, 5-room Model A and Executive Apartment Contracts 4 & 5 - 3-room Model A and 4-room Model A Contracts 6 & 7 - 3-room New Generation and 4-room New Generation Based on the successful awards, the average construction costs of flats built, excluding infrastructural, professional and overheads, financing, and land costs, are follows:- 3-room New Generation - $31,100 3-room Model A - $42,700 4-room New Generation - $41,900 4-room Model A - $58,900 5-room Model A - $71,800 Executive Apartment - $78,500 I have earlier circulated to hon. Members a statistical table (Cols. 93 - 94) showing evidence of land value. The table lists ransactions of private residential land in areas comparable to Potong Pasir between March 1981 and March 1984. Based on the evidence, the land at Potong Pasir which as a permitted planning density of 706 pph, has been very conservatively valued at $1,500 psm. table - EVIDENCE OF LAND VALUE (Cols. 93 - 94) Had the Government sold the land for Potong Pasir Estate, it would have fetched $1,500 psm. The imputed land cost for Potong Pasir Estate is therefore $255,356,800. In addition to the building cost, the HDB incurred the following costs in the development of Potong Pasir: Infrastructural Cost - $7,490,500 Professional and - $5,083,300 Administrative Overheads Financing Cost - $10,144,700 The total development cost, inclusive of land cost, was thus $454,765,000. The total proceeds from the sale of the 3,634 flats was only $228,380,000. Therefore, the Government subsidy for the development of Potong Pasir Estate amounted to $226,385,000. This works out to a subsidy per flat of $62,296 or 99% of its purchase price. It is the Government's policy to keep public housing at prices within the reach of Singaporeans. However, even if the Government continues to provide heavy subsidies for public housing, the present pace of building 40,000 new dwelling units a year cannot be sustained indefinitely. The simple reason is that Singapore has only a finite land area. At the present pace of construction, all available land for 400,000 units of public housing will be exhausted in 10 years' time. These additional 400,000 units plus the rebuilding of the older HDB rental blocks can provide enough units to meet the Government's aim of a 100% house ownership society. However, when the land bank is used up, and Singapore has to depend on land obtained from the demolition and rebuilding of old HDB blocks or other built-up properties, the prices of flats will rise steeply. In other words, those who come on to the housing market after the land bank is. used up, must either inherit a flat from their parents, or buy an existing flat at free market prices then prevailing. The question Singaporeans face is how to modulate or moderate this transition from very heavily subsidized HDB prices to free market prices after all land which is available for public housing is used up. This problem is being studied by a Ministerial Committee, comprising Mr Dhanabalan, Mr Ong Teng Cheong, Dr Yeo Ning Hong and myself.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Supplementary questions, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I see it, the figures given by the Minister from the successful awards are in fact very much lower than the prices of flats sold at Potong Pasir. A 3-room flat is sold at $52,200; a 4-room flat is sold at $59,600; a 5-room flat is sold at $115,700; and an Executive Apartment is sold at $145,600. These prices are way above the prices of the 'successful awards quoted by the Minister. The second question, as regards his - An hon. Member: What is your first question?

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) The first question is, therefore, the construction cost is in fact lower. An hon. Member: It is not complete.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Is it not true then that the construction costs of these flats are in fact much lower than the prices quoted by the HDB? My second question is on the various costs, ie, the infrastructural cost, professional fee, financing cost, the total development cost. Could the Minister give a breakdown of the cost per unit of flat in regard to all these additional costs? My third supplementary question is: have these figures been verified, checked and certified by the Auditor-General or are they the figures of the HDB? In fact, I have other questions but, for the time being, I think these three questions will be sufficient.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, it appears that the Member for Potong Pasir has only absorbed part of my answer which I gave just now, ie, on the construction cost, and he appears not to have absorbed the other parts. In the building industry, the total cost, as I have stated in my answer, is the structural cost, the land cost, the infrastructural cost, the financing cost, the professional fees. These added together form the total cost of the flat. If he is just taking part of the costs, then it does not constitute the total cost. It is just like when a person is going to buy a motor-car, say, a Mercedes-Benz 190. He asks the salesman of the firm, Cycle & Carriage, which sells the car, "What is the cost of these four tyres?" The salesman says, "These four tyres cost $600." Then he says, "This is most unreasonable. The tyres cost $600. How can you sell the car for $100,000?"

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Deputy Speaker, will the Minister please answer the first question?

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Please remain seated, Mr Chiam.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) I am answering the question. I am just illustrating that if a person is asking for the cost of a car, it must be the cost of the whole car and not just the cost of the four tyres. So if the Member for Potong Pasir is asking for the cost of the flat, as I have stated here, it must be the construction cost, the infrastructural cost, the financing cost, the professional fees and, most important of all, the land cost. I have added up all the costs for him to show that the subsidy is extremely heavy because the subsidy provided by the HDB constitutes 99% of the selling price of the flat. I have stated this very clearly. His second question about individual unit cost -

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister has not answered the first question, whether or not the construction cost is in fact lower than the selling prices of the flats.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Chiam, will you please resume your seat and allow the Minister to give his reply? If you are not satisfied, you may pose another supplementary question. Carry on, Mr Teh.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have answered the question quite clearly. When a person buys a car, he does not just ask for the price of the four tyres. He asks for the price of the whole car.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) You keep on repeating.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Because the hon. Member for Potong Pasir repeats the question and I have to repeat the same answer.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Construction cost is higher than the selling prices of flats.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Construction cost is higher than the selling prices of flats. Of course, and if the Member for Potong Pasir adds the other costs, it would be much higher. It is just like when a person is buying a flat from any private developer. He cannot ask the private developer what is the structural cost of the flat. Of course, the private developer will say, "No. My cost is not just for the structure alone. It must include the architect's fee. It must include the infrastructural cost. It must include land cost and it must include my financing cost. That is my total cost."

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) I am talking about construction cost.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) The Member for Potong Pasir is talking about construction cost. He cannot buy a flat without the infrastructure, without the architect preparing the plan, without the land. What is he buying? He must buy the flat with the whole infrastructure. An hon. Member: Buy a piece of land.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) The second point is about the unit cost. I can apportion the unit cost for the Member for Potong Pasir. Or he can work it out himself. It is the total cost divided by the number of units. If he wants the cost of each individual unit, I can apportion it out and I can send it to him. Sir, on the point about whether or not HDB's accounts are audited by the Auditor-General, the answer is yes. Every Annual Report of the HDB must be audited by the Auditor-General. In fact, all the Members in this House have received a copy of HDB's Annual Report. In the Report there is a statement of accounts which is properly audited and certified by the Auditor-General. My answer to his third question is yes.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, am I correct in drawing the following inference from the Minister's figures? Of the total proceeds of $228.3 million from the sale of flats at Potong Pasir, $176.6 million is actual construction cost, $23.3 million constitutes the infrastructural, professional, administrative and financing costs, which make a total of almost $200 million, which leaves $28.4 million for imputed land costs. And this figure of $28.4 million, compared with the actual conservative market value or cost of the land of $255 million, is only 10% of the actual market value? In other words, the Government is, in effect, subsidizing 90% or more of the land cost itself.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the answer to the Member for Whampoa is yes.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) The Minister has said in this House that the construction cost of the HDB flat is in fact higher than the selling prices of the flats. If I remember correctly, during the Budget debate, there was an allocation of $5.149 billion for the HDB and, out of that, $149 million was given as grants to the HDB. In other words it is a gift to the HDB. If this grant is given other than for development, can the Minister tell this House what is this grant for? Is it not for professional fee, for the infrastructural cost and for other expenses in running the HDB? Therefore, can he take into account all these other costs? The second question is: can he define exactly what is construction cost?

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, it appears that the Member for Potong Pasir has not read or does not understand the accounts. The Annual Report shows quite clearly how this grant or Government subsidy is arrived at. In the old accounting system, the HDB usually incurs a deficit. In other words, the HDB's income is less than its expenditure and the deficit is being subsidized by Government in the form of a grant. This is the grant given annually by the Government when the HDB suffers a deficit in its income and expenditure. If the Member for Potong Pasir does not quite understand this grant, I would suggest that he goes back and read the HDB's accounts.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) I am not asking for myself. It is for thousands of my constituents.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Since the Member has some accountants, if I remember correctly reading it in the papers, assisting him on the preparation of the 19 conditions which he sent to me, they would be able to enlighten the Member for Potong Pasir how that subsidy has been arrived at. Very simply, the housing subsidy granted by the Government is the difference between the income and the expenditure in the HDB's accounts.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) What about construction cost? How do you define it?

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Vasoo.

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) Mr Deputy Speaker, can I proceed with my question? Question No. 5, Sir. Mr Chiam See Tong rose -

HDB FLATS AT POTONG PASIR ESTATE - (Particulars of construction costs) I am sorry. We are proceeding to Question No. 5 already.

LEVY FOR HDB AND HUDC RESALE - FLATS - (Review) asked the Minister for National Development whether the Housing and Development Board will review the payment of the transfer fee for the resale of flats in view of the significant drop in the value of HDB and HUDC resale flats.