Hansard, 1956-11-23

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [3rd Allotted Day]: Resumption of debate on Question (22nd November, 1956) proposed on Head 49 in the First Schedule of the Bill, "That the sum of $31,522,760 for Head 49 stand part of the Schedule."

FIRST SCHEDULE Head 49-

We are on Head 49 and I have to remind hon. Members that there are now 35 minutes more to go for that Head. Question again proposed, "That the sum of $31,522,760 for Head 49 stand part of the Schedule."

Mr Chairman, Sir, I am ready to answer the request made by the Member for Paya Lebar (Mr Lim Koon Teck) in his motion yesterday. He intimated to me after the adjournment that he would like a little more information about the tuberculosis scheme which we intend to carry out in our Ministry. It is intended that all known cases of tuberculosis be followed up so that we can be sure that they are obtaining adequate treatment either as in-patients or as out-patients. As soon as such an organisation which I explained yesterday has been established, then it is worth while intensifying in Singapore our case findings. Effective tuberculosis control is likely to be an expensive undertaking, and for this reason it is most important that we should have a clearly defined estimate of the extent of the problem which faces us, and this is where Australian assistance comes in. We have asked for a team of experts with equipment for mass miniature radiography to undertake a short-term survey to cover about 50,000 persons. Subject to further consultation with the Australian experts, it is proposed to select three sample areas in Singapore - two in the city area and one in the rural area. Such a survey of complete groups to a total of 50,000 persons will take at least six months and the results will give us a very much clearer knowledge of the real incidence of tuberculosis in a densely populated and less densely populated area. When this intensive survey is over, the Australian experts will withdraw, leaving their equipment for our future use. Thereafter we shall continue with the case-finding programme, inevitably at a much slower pace but as quickly as available staff and funds will permit. There is no intention to nationalise tuberculosis. We shall welcome and need all the help we can get from S.A.T.A. and from private practitioners, and there is no intention to dictate or interfere with treatment being given by non-government practitioners. We wish only to ensure that if a person has tuberculosis, he is given treatment and to ensure also, if he is infective, that the public are adequately safeguarded from his spreading the infection. It is interesting to note that a study group on tuberculosis control sponsored by the World Health Organisation met at the end of November 1955. The technical report of their findings has just been published. In that study group were represented experts from ten countries, and in their report they stated, inter alia, that "The establishment in each country of a Central Tuberculosis Register covering notified and re-notified cases will be of great value for the study of the epidemiology of the disease." and that "Complete pulmonary examinations of sample groups are necessary to obtain a reliable index for the prevalence of tuberculosis." It is also interesting to note that their recommendations represent, in fact, the programme which we have now formulated in Singapore. I think, Mr Chairman, I have covered all the points which the Member for Paya Lebar wishes to know.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I look at page 227, sub-head 1 (4) and I see there the post of Assistant Director of Medical Services. Previously this title was the Chief Medical Officer, General Hospital. The job is still the same, that is, that the Chief Medical Officer of the General Hospital looks after all the hospitals in Singapore. Sir, the Government has created a new post called "Medical Superintendent". You can see this at page 247, sub-head 68 (1) . What is the idea of having this new appointment, Sir, when the work of the Chief Medical Officer, General Hospital, is to look after all the hospitals in Singapore? I see no reason why there should be a Medical Superintendent to take over part of the duties of the former Chief Medical Officer, General Hospital. I hope the Minister can explain this.

Mr Chairman, the Member for Sembawang was probably not in the House yesterday or he was not paying attention, but I gave a very full explanation of the reasons why, owing to the fantastic amount of work, we have found it necessary to have a full-time Medical Officer in charge of the General Hospital and a full-time Administrative Officer to co-operate the work of all the hospitals.

Mr Chairman, Sir, may I seek one point of information from the Minister? Will the persons to be X-rayed in the sampling of the three areas to which mention was made be selected, or will they be asked to come forward on a voluntary basis, or how will the sampling be done?

I think the Member for Tanglin is fully conversant with the arrangements that have been made. I would only remind him of the conference which he and Mr Garlick of S.A.T.A. had in my Ministry. It is, in fact, our intention to give free X-rays on miniature radiography in these three areas. Option will be given to the people in these areas to be either X-rayed by us or by S.A.T.A. X-rays will be on a voluntary basis.

Mr Chairman, I am sorry the Minister has not understood my question. I was not referring to any conference which has taken place. That point was not made clear to me at that time. What I want to know is: I think there are going to be three areas in which about 15,000 people are going to be X-rayed. Now is that going to be done on a voluntary basis as far as the persons who are going to be X-rayed are concerned? Are they going to be invited to come forward, and is it going to be done through propaganda; or have they got to be X-rayed; or how is it going to be done?

Yes, we hope to do it successfully on a voluntary basis.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $31,522,760 for Head 49 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 50-

Mr Chairman, Sir, I move, To reduce by $29,990 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1 (1) , Minister, on page 269 of the Estimates. Sir, in moving this amendment, I hope that it will not be construed that I am trying to take away the salary of the Minister. The Minister for Labour and Welfare is also concurrently the Chief Minister, and as the salary of the Chief Minister is far higher than that of the Minister for Labour and Welfare, I am sure that he prefers to draw the salary of the Chief Minister rather than that of the Minister for Labour and Welfare. I would refer you, Sir, to page 161, the "Remarks" column against subhead 1 (1) which says: "No provision entered for 1956 as the Chief Minister then was also Minister for Commerce and Industry." Sir, the Member for Cairnhill then was Chief Minister and concurrently Minister for Commerce and Industry. Sir, in this case, as the Budget shows a deficit, I do not think it is fair to put the figure of $30,000, shown against sub-head 1 (1) , Minister, on page 269, in the Estimates because it will misguide us. However, rather than take away that vote altogether, I would much prefer to put in a token vote of $10 in its place, because the Assistant Minister for Labour and Welfare may be promoted to the post of Minister if there is a vacancy in due course. If that happens, we can, without any difficulty, re-insert the figure of $30,000 against the post of Minister. Sir, I beg to move. Question proposed.

Mr Chairman, Sir, the Chief Minister has been good enough to take over the portfolio of the Minister for Labour and Welfare. This has saved the Colony a lot of money - a Minister's salary, allowance, entertainment expenses, etc. The former Chief Minister, the Member for Cairnhill, also did the same thing in the beginning when he held the portfolio of Commerce and Industry. His was a difficult task when he began to work the new Constitution. I remember his words at, I think, the first Assembly sitting - that there was not even an ink-pot or a sheet of note-paper, or even an office for the Chief Minister. I also remember that he had to try and wrest power from the ex-officios. I also remember that he had to put up a fight with the Colonial Office. The first Chief Minister's task was difficult, with the result that he had to give up later on the portfolio of the Minister for Commerce and Industry. But now things are well under way, and we are grateful to the present Chief Minister for taking up both this portfolio and that of the Minister for Labour and Welfare, thereby saving the revenue of the Colony. He might be able to give us information why this post of Minister for Labour and Welfare is kept open. The fact is that he has to go to London, and his is a minority Government. I wonder whether other parties will co-operate with him when he goes to London, or whether the Colonial Office will accept what a minority Government says. Sir, I believe there is something in the minds of the present Coalition Government or in that of the Chief Minister, and I would like to hear why this post of Minister of Labour and Welfare is kept open. If the vote is reduced to a token $10, he will still have the same chance, but it is no use carrying such a big item in the Budget. Sir, I would like to have an explanation from the Chief Minister.

Mr Chairman, Sir, the Member for Queenstown has rightly said that I am not drawing salaries from two Ministries. The reason why this vote remains in the Estimates is because I am not so sure what is going to transpire in February. As hon. Members know, if this time we go again and we do not succeed in our mission, Singapore will have to find a new Minister for Labour and Welfare. The Member for Queenstown also referred to the Member for Cairnhill when he was the Chief Minister and at the same time Minister for Commerce and Industry. In his case, Sir, I would like to point out to the Assembly that, under the then Rendel Constitution, the Chief Minister had to hold a portfolio. So he became the Minister for Commerce and Industry, who is also the chief of all the other Ministers. But as a result of his talks with the Secretary of State last December, his Government was able to get a concession, that, in view of the heavy responsibilities of the Chief Minister, he should not be loaded with another Ministry. His Ministry of Commerce and Industry was therefore separated from him and so the portfolio of Minister for Commerce and Industry was created. Now when I accepted the Chief Ministership, I said that my spiritual home was in the Labour Ministry, and it still is. I will not give that up. But one must not forget that although I may not want to do it, I might be forced to do it, may be in February when I come back from London. Or I might be forced to do it earlier, may be on account of reasons of health. But I can say that, as long as there is life in me, and as long as I am allowed to hold it, I will hold it. But the amendment proposed by the Member for Queenstown, Sir, means nothing. The vote is still there. What the hon. Member wants is to see a reduction of a comparatively few dollars in the Estimates. It is just $29,990 - it is nothing in an Estimate of millions upon millions of dollars. Sir, we cannot accept the amendment on this side because of the uncertainty of the situation.

Sir, I think this side of the House should be satisfied with the explanation given. The position, of course, appears to be very uncertain, as the Chief Minister has pointed out, and I think we should remain contented for the time being.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I do fully appreciate what the Chief Minister has in mind where his appointment is concerned, that someone should be there, whether he himself or the Assistant Minister if and when he is promoted. But the fact is that in my amendment I am not trying to take away the vote altogether. Where a token vote is concerned, if it is passed, it gives authority for the money to be spent. But if a token vote is taken away altogether, then authority has to be sought for. And when the Chief Minister appoints a new Minister for Labour and Welfare or appoints a new Minister, he may have got to go to the Governor in Council or Council of Ministers to seek approval for that appointment. I feel, Sir, that where an estimate is concerned, I would prefer a token vote rather than an imaginative figure. When such time as the appointment has actually been filled, we could then easily release that token vote where the actual amount is concerned. But since the Member for Telok Ayer has said that he is prepared to overlook it, and in order to save time, may I have your permission and that of hon. Members to withdraw my amendment?

Is it the pleasure of the Committee, then, that this amendment should be withdrawn? Hon. Members: Yes. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $153,560 for Head 50 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 51- Question proposed, "That the sum of $1,102,330 for Head 51 stand part of the Schedule."

Mr Chairman, Sir, on page 270, sub-head 1 (5) , "Deputy Assistant Controllers of Immigration, 29," - may the Minister inform us what is, first, the vacancy position at the moment; second, how many of the 29 appointments have been filled?

Mr Chairman, Sir, I must have notice of that question.

Mr Chairman, Sir, the question of immigration is causing grave concern amongst the Chinese population in Singapore. As a matter of fact, it is more of a puzzle, because the man in the street is not fully aware of the actual functions of this Department or what is the system of application for entry into this country. Sir, I have known of cases where applications for entry for wives or aged parents met with great difficulty as compared to the ease with which strip- teasers and singers can enter this colony. It is, of course, a fact that these stripteasers and singers come here for a very short period, say, six months or so. Another surprise is that the application for extension of the visas of these entertainers meets with no difficulty. I have known of cases where singers in night-clubs have been here for more than three years. I wonder how they manage this - may be they are females! I think that is why the immigration authorities take such a lenient view! But I have known of cases where technicians have found much difficulty in applying for entry visas for even a short stay here. I have known of a permanent wave expert - a man, in this instance! - who was quite prepared to come down to Singapore and give the benefit of his knowledge and experience to our local people. He has tried, but without success, to get an entry visa. If the Minister for Labour and Welfare desires it, I can one day bring this case to him. Sir, our Chinese custom is that we prefer to have our wives and aged parents stay with us as a family unit rather than that they live apart from us. Where immigration is concerned, there is a proviso that a marriage photograph must be produced. Sir, in olden times, there was no question of a marriage photograph because the man and his wife were too shy of each other and more so of exposing themselves to the public. I think this proviso should be relaxed in such cases. There are also cases of aged parents wishing to come to Singapore to join their sons or daughters, but the reply from the Immigration Department is always the same - they are not within the category to be considered. I wonder what are the categories to be considered, Sir, because it is very difficult to say the actual categories. Now a son may have a well-established business here and is able to maintain his parents, but they are not staying with him, and it will naturally be a cause of much sorrow to them all if they are kept apart, instead of living together as a happy family. This son, Sir, who is a business man, is also prepared to give a guarantee to the Government that his parents, if they are allowed to enter the colony, would not be a burden to the State. There are cases, Sir, where the applicants have estates and certainly in their position they are in a position to maintain their parents. I hope that the Government will be prepared to let the public know what are the categories which they consider immigrants should come into before they are allowed to enter here, because as far as I know, it is only the wives who are considered and they are only subject to the production of documents of family photographs. But what about aged parents? I may get a reply from the Minister that above the age of 60 -

Hundreds are coming in.

I do agree with that. Even thousands are coming in! It really surprises me, Sir, that in some cases they are considered and in other cases they are not. What is the difference then? I can tell you, Sir, that although the age of entry for children is 12, I have known of children 15 or 16 years old coming into this colony. How did they manage it? I wonder if the Minister for Labour and Welfare, who is in charge of the Immigration Department, can explain this. At one time I went into a shop and I was surprised to see a boy of this height [Indicating.] who told me that he came from China only a few days previously and I asked him how old he was and how he came into the colony. To my surprise he replied that his age, by Chinese reckoning, was 16. To account for the difference between 16 and 12 years of age is beyond me. Is it not surprising then how a boy of 16 was allowed to come in? As I have said earlier, it is a puzzle - in some cases, they are allowed in and in other cases they are not. I think there should be a change of system in the Immigration Department. I wonder whether the Minister for Labour and Welfare could institute an investigation into the functions of that Department so that there will be no more discrimination. I may also point out in the Member for Cairnhill that it is not hundreds or even thousands of aged parents who have come in. Millions of wives, I should say, have come in through some way or other! So I do hope that the Minister could set up a committee to investigate into the workings of that Department. The Minister for Labour and Welfare (Mr Lim Yew Hock): Mr Chairman, Sir, as the Minister for Labour and Welfare but not drawing the salary of the Minister for Labour and Welfare, may I now attempt to justify or give an answer to the attack on the Immigration Department? The Member for Queenstown seems to be concerned with the immigration policy. He asks for information, which he could easily get from the Immigration Ordinance, of the categories of people who are permitted entry into the colony. Sir, before I became Minister for Labour and Welfare, I had been toiling and toiling for the people of Singapore in so far as their immigration problems were concerned. This was ever since 1948, and so if I claim to know a lot about that Department, I hope hon. Members will understand that it is a claim based on personal knowledge. The hon. Member says that marriage photographs are insisted before entry is permitted. I think his information is incorrect. A marriage photograph is not insisted upon. It was insisted upon in 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951 I think, 1952 maybe, so much so that if a marriage photograph is asked for and if the sponsor of the immigrant has it, it will help to substantiate his application for entry; but if there is no marriage photograph, it does not mean that his case is that much weaker. I would say that it was because of the insistence of marriage photographs that photographers in Singapore made a lot of money by imposing one photograph upon another, so much so that when the sponsor (meaning the husband or the wife; the applicant is the person who desires entry) was asked, "Why did you forge this photograph?", he replied, "I do not know. I was told that I must produce a marriage photograph and so I produce a marriage photograph!" It was because of that that the production of a marriage photograph is no longer insisted upon. If the sponsor can produce one, it will help his case; but if he cannot, well, that is that.

Order. The time has expired.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $l,102,330 for Head 51 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 52- Question proposed, "That the sum of $1,024,280 for Head 52 stand part of the Schedule."

Mr Chairman, Sir, I think it is a wellknown fact that labour is the economic backbone of this colony and it also plays a vital role in the stability of this country. Without labour, industry would not be able to progress. Government, I believe, is trying to see that there is less unemployment. It is trying its best to ensure that there is no unemployment in this colony, and that is why a labour exchange has been created. But, Sir, in my opinion, the system of operation in that labour exchange is rather unsatisfactory. I have known cases where long queues have stood alongside the Havelock Road building waiting either to be registered or sent to employers or firms which require labour. The coordination between the employers and the labour exchange is not very satisfactory. There may be cases of a firm which requires a large number of carpenters but the labour exchange is unable to supply them; whereas, in fact, there are thousands of unemployed carpenters who are not prepared to register or have not registered themselves at the labour exchange. So this is the reason why I say the system is not satisfactory. It is either the employers or the unemployed who are not making much use of the labour exchange. I presume they do not know the benefits to be derived from the use of that exchange. Or it may be that the staff there is inadequate so that they are unable to set up a new system whereby the employers, the unemployed and the exchange could have co-ordination. The answer to this problem, if I may say so again, is to appoint a committee to go into the functions of the labour exchange with a view to making recommendations for improvement.

Sir, it is again the Member for Queenstown who speaks and the Minister for Labour who labours for no reward! Sir, he brought up the question of the work of the labour exchange. I agree that the work of the labour exchange is not as satisfactory as I should have liked to see, but I am sure he himself realises the limitations under which the labour exchange has to work. In the first place, there is no compulsion on employers to seek to fill vacancies through the labour exchange. In the second place, there are a number of private employment agencies, about whom I have already asked for more information, who appear to be able to do better business in this particular line. It has been reported to me, Sir, that more and more people would like to make use of these agencies because, through their own organisations within the offices, they are able to know in advance of any vacancy that may arise in any particular office. In some cases, it has been reported to the Labour Department that there have been a good number of illegal practices going on in these so-called private employment agencies and I have therefore, as I have said earlier, asked for further information about them. The Member for Queenstown asked for a committee to be set up to look into and improve upon the work of the labour exchange. I would like to inform him, Sir, that there is already a small committee on the job and I hope they will be able to make recommendations to me which will improve the working of the labour exchange. In regard to the long queues of people waiting at the labour exchange for registration, perhaps the Member for Queenstown has confused them with the long queues waiting for relief at the Social Welfare Department. The labour exchange and the Social Welfare Department are on the same floor, Sir, and the queues could have been enlarged because there is only one entrance.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I am glad that the Minister is calling for a report on the working of these private employment agencies. I think the Government should take very strong action against them. To my knowledge, these agencies are, in fact, exploiting the workers rather than assisting them. A registration fee is levied whether you get employment or not; and as soon as employment is found for persons who have registered with them, a certain percentage of the first month's salary has to be paid to them. This is nothing but corruption and exploitation. Unemployed persons are trying to find work and in the process a certain fee has first to be paid. I do not think that is fair. These unfortunate people want work to keep themselves alive and yet a certain amount of money is extracted from them. I hope the Minister will ask Government to be quick about the action to be taken against these agencies and see that they are not allowed to exist.

Question put, and agreed to, The sum of $1,024,280 for Head 52 order to stand part of the Schedule. Head 53-

Mr Chairman, Sir, I move, To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1 (46) , Community Centre Organisers, on page 281 of the Estimates. Sir, in moving this amendment, I must draw the attention of the House to the fact that Community Centre Organisers are new innovations in this Budget. They have been here for only a few years. May I suggest to the House, Sir, that this type of employment is not necessary? It gives me a queer feeling to have that title "Community Centre Organisers" put into the Budget. It gives me the idea that people in Singapore must be organised. It gives me the feeling that people cannot organise themselves before; but, Sir, nothing is further from the truth. In fact, people have always organised themselves and will organise themselves when they want to. But they will not want to organise themselves if they are forced into it. Sir, we find that in every locality in Singapore little associations have come up. We have little guilds coming up. People have formed themselves into sports associations, benevolent associations, clan associations and associations to promote a certain type of welfare activity or social activity; and in all such cases they have never had any prompting from anybody. In fact, it is the interest in these people which causes them to band themselves into whatever organisations they want. Now it may be said by the Department concerned that this can only apply to many decades ago, say, before the second world war, when everybody was staying in a fixed place for a very long time; but after the war, we have the growth of new estates and the coming of this event has brought people from all parts of Singapore to stay together. Then, of course, there will be problems which are common to them and which they want to solve, but because of the shortness of time, they are not able to come together; so we must have somebody to look after such things for them. But, Sir, I say this is not true. In this case of new estates, where the people have common problems, they usually organise themselves into community centres to fight their own battle. They need no urging from the Department concerned. Sir, let us now look at the work of these community centre organisers during the past few years. I happen to be pretty familiar with the work which they are doing and in most cases I think they have nothing much to recommend themselves for the maintenance of their jobs. A community centre is built in a place which is not conspicuous enough to attract attention and in such a way that people will find it quite inconvenient to make use of it. In such centres there will be a few types of activities - boys' club activities, girls' club activities - and there will be a little library in the corner and occasionally the members will meet there for a lecture or a short talk. But invariably, Sir, these centres are empty - empty for the most part of the month, for the most part of the week, and for the most part of the day. You can say, "Yes, we have a centre and it is catering for the needs of the young children. We run classes." Yes, these centres run classes, but classes for about 20 or 30 or 40 people and no more; and if you can call them community centres, when they are being made use of by only a very small number of people, then I wonder if there is not something wrong with the title. However, even if we confine ourselves to the subject of the centre being made use of by these young people, let us see how the work is being done. Sometimes an association will come in and ask for the use of the place, and in one case that I know of, the organiser said, "You will have to write in officially." I quite agree, Sir, that community centres deal with all sorts of people, and such people will also include those who are illiterate, and to ask illiterate people to write in officially is, I think, the height of folly. Or you may have an organisation asking, "You are not going to use this place for a few days. Let us have it for the purposes of weight-lifting." This organisation is prepared to guarantee that the building will not be spoiled, the floor will not be chipped, and should there be damage, the association is prepared to compensate for such damage. But even then the association is not allowed to make use of that centre. A community centre, according to that type of organiser, should be kept as a white elephant, white-washed and cleanly swept, nobody making use of it because it will then not be dirty. Let me point out another fact. Invariably we find that organisers are sent into a community about which they know nothing. I put it to you, Sir, that if you are sent in to organise a certain community - in fact, they do not need your assistance at all - then the very least that you must know is that you should know the people and the conditions there. If you do not, then you can do no work at all. In fact, the work that has been done has nothing to recommend itself. I have known of one centre where, instead of the organisers making everybody happy to go into it and drink coffee, talk together, read the papers, discuss the day's work, these people have divided them into factions. The organisers in this case did not bring the people together, but had split them into various camps. Then, Sir, I must say one very interesting thing. It is said that in community centres there must be no politics, absolutely no politics. We agree with that.

Do you?

Yes. In fact, there was a case where a group of people were interested in forming a community centre, but the Department concerned said, "No, you cannot form a community centre. We do not agree with you because it is political." Then the organisers had to produce a list in which they said, "We have so many people coming into this project; there are so many from one Party, and so many from another." In fact, many of the Parties were represented, including quite a number of people who had no Parties at all. That was actually the case. They came from all sorts of Parties. I should even say, they have people coming from the Labour Front! Let us say now that we agree that there should be no politics in community centres. We agree with that, but I would ask the Government to read an article by a journalist writing under the name of Aster Gunasekera who gave prominence to an event which happened in one of the community centres. It is not my opinion, but it is the opinion of an independent observer. He says, "If that is not politics, what is it?". Here, Sir, is a case where what the Government can do, the other people cannot do. I think that is absolutely wrong. Sir, there are also other instances where people want to form community centres but instead of the Department sending along organisers to help them in a positive way, they have done so in a negative way. Take the case of the Tiong Bahru community centre. Some people wanted to form a community centre there. They had interests there and they wanted to come out and do work for the community, but I doubt whether there was any positive help given to them. Take another case, the Serangoon Garden Estate. There is a community centre there and it came into existence to fight the Estate Department who was levying dues or charges which the community thought were unjust and should be classified as - Mr Marshall rose -

Is it a point of order?

I want the hon. Member to remember the question of time -

Is it on a point of order? The hon. Member has not given way yet.

I am not giving way, Sir. I have 35 minutes here and I know my time.

On a point of information, Sir.

If the hon. Member will give way.

I am not giving way, Sir.

In fairness to other hon. Members, I think I must indicate that 35 minutes has been allotted for Head 53. I had indications that three Members wished to speak, and there are now 22 minutes left.

To continue, Sir, it was the same case with the Serangoon Garden Estate. That community centre organisation received no help whatsoever from the Department concerned. I should like the House to know exactly how this Department is carrying out its work. Instead of helping those people who are interested in community work, which should, in fact, be the most logical way, an organiser is posted to a place. This organiser then uses his discretion and goes round and invites people whom he thinks fit to form an advisory committee. This advisory committee will then advise the Department as to what is good and what is bad. There is, however, one point to remember about this, Sir. In a place where people do not want advisory committees, then advisory committees must be done away with. In a place where the people wish to call a meeting of the whole district to elect democratically those whom they wish to run their community centre, I think the Government should give way to the popular wish of the people. I am certain, Sir, that in a matter like this, where there is still a denial by the Government to accept the principle that the people must be trained at the lowest level so that they may know what is the meaning of an election and how to select the best men to represent them, it is something that I think should never have occurred. I say to this Assembly, Sir, that should any hon. Member require further facts, I shall be always willing to give him real and solid examples. Question proposed.

If it please you, Mr Chairman, Sir, I have only two very small points to make to the address by the Member for Serangoon who seems to have emptied his own side of the House. It is the policy, I understand, of community centres that no public meeting of a political character can be held in them, and that, I understand, is also true of schools. Sir, the concept of polities has been something unclean. It is a Colonial Office concept in respect of colonial territories. It is not a healthy concept in a territory which seeks democratic development, and I would urge upon Government to reconsider the question of permitting political meetings in community centres and in schools with a fair apportionment to the various political Parties. The Assistant Minister, Chief Secretary's Ministry (Mr M. P. D. Nair): Sir, I hold no brief for the Department of Social Welfare, but I must correct some of the misapprehensions which the Member for Serangoon has expressed to the Assembly. As a Member of the Assembly who has taken pains to organise one of these community centres, I must refute every word of what the Member for Serangoon said. Sir, community development went the wrong way as early as 1950. These centres were then used for political purposes and there were difficulties arising as a result of this. But a year or two back, Sir, the Department realised the position and, as a result, they have tried to obtain trained and experienced staff as community centre organisers. They are doing a very good job, Sir, as far as my place is concerned. I have every praise for their work. I think community development has been considerably misunderstood by the Member for Serangoon, Sir, and I hope that the Department of Social Welfare will publish some material for the information of all concerned which will be of immense help not only to Members of the Assembly but also to the population as a whole.

Mr Chairman, Sir, with due respect to the Member for Serangoon - I understand he is a youth leader - I am afraid I cannot agree with him that community centre organisers are not necessary. I believe that he was referring to the Government-sponsored community centres -

Exactly.

- rather than the community centres that have been set up in S.I.T. estates by the residents themselves.

Confined to Government only.

These centres are set up, as a matter of fact, for the co-ordination of residents within the estate and to assist them in case of need; but the officials of such community centres are treating these centres more as associations than as community centres. That is why I do not agree when the Member for Serangoon says that community centre organisers are not required. The community centres should have wardens to guide the officials, and, as such, it should be the responsibility of the Government to provide such wardens. I understand that Government has established within the Social Welfare Department a little section called the Community Development Section under the Assistant Director for Community Centres, but what I would like to say is this: that the liaison between this section and the community centres is unsatisfactory. This section within the Social Welfare Department waits for the community centres to come to it for advice rather than that it should go to the centres and give them advice. These centres are, in fact, in great need of financial help. The only concession that they do get is not from the Government but from the S.I.T. who gives a special rate of $20 rental for a shop-house at the premises of the centre. The rental of that shop-house may be $160 to $200. I think it is the duty of the Government to go round to these centres - the privately established ones and not the Government-sponsored ones - to find out what is required. Most of them, I may say, live on cinemas. In each of the different estates you will find an open-air cinema set up charging an entrance fee of ten cents. Without such cinemas, the community centres would have to close down long ago. The Assistant Minister to the Chief Secretary (Mr M. P. D. Nair) has said that in 1950 the question of community development was raised. I remember that sometime in that year or the year after that a committee called the Community Development Committee was set up and on it were represented members of public bodies like the City Council, the Legislative Council and the Rural Board. That committee must have wound up because I have never heard of it again. I would urge, Sir, that Government revive this committee, but the representation on this committee should not be on the basis of Government or local organisations. Privately established community centres should be asked to come on to this committee so that there could be an exchange of views on community development. They could easily ask two representatives from each community centre to sit on this committee. There has been no trouble with Government-sponsored community centres, as the Member for Serangoon has alleged. In Yio Chu Kang there is a beautiful and well-established centre which will be opened tomorrow by the Labour Minister. It is not the Government-sponsored centres that we should look after; it is the privately-established centres that we should look after. I hope the Government will bear my suggestion in mind to revive the Community Development Committee so that a chance could be given to private community centres to air their views and their needs.

Sir, I see that the Member for Queenstown is very committee-minded! For the three departments in my Ministry - Immigration, Labour and Welfare - he has been suggesting one committee after another! The Member for Serangoon started his speech by saying that he objected to the appointment of community centre organisers. He said that there was a sinister meaning given to organisers when they are officers of the Government; but later on in his speech he told us that his dissatisfaction arose out of the alleged inefficiency of the organisers themselves rather than because the centre organisers were there. Sir, I would like to say that community centre organisers are very necessary to help and advise in the management of centres. They are trained people and experience has shown that without a competent professional staff the premises tend to be put to insufficient use and government money is therefore wasted. Sir, it is Government's policy to provide community centres and children's social centres within them, and to appoint advisory committees to run them, and to appoint members of the general public to serve on these committees, with the object of establishing at the earliest possible moment a community association formed by persons who use these centres. In this way, Sir, the management of all appropriate functions of the centre can be undertaken by a committee and this could be separated from the Social Welfare Department. The Member for Serangoon and the Member for Cairnhill have touched on the use of community centres for political meetings. Political meetings in community centres and in schools are allowed during election time, and in community centres they will be allowed when more than one Party is represented. It could not be given to any political Party at any one time, but if there is a joint political meeting organised by more than one Party on a matter of general interest to the community, permission will be granted to hold such a meeting.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. Question proposed. "That the sum of $11,020,270 for Head 53 stand part of the Schedule."

If it please you, Sir, I rise to speak on a matter of very considerable importance to a considerable number of people, and that is the Legal Aid and Advice Ordinance; but before I do so, Sir, I would ask whether the Minister for Labour and Welfare has any information that he would like to add to our knowledge of the implementation of this legislation.

Mr Chairman, I am sure the Member for Cairnhill will be pleased to know that it is proposed that Part I of the Legal Aid and Advice Ordinance will come into operation without any further delay. The Director of Legal Aid can then be appointed and an office set up. Sir, I propose to hold further discussions with the Bar Committee as soon as possible. The discussions which I have already had with them indicated to me that the Government can be assured of their co-operation, and in the operation of this law, Sir, it is most necessary that we have the co-operation of the Bar Committee in order to give the utmost benefit to those desiring legal aid.

If it please you, Mr Chairman, Sir, indeed I think all sides of the House welcome the announcement of the Minister of the immediate implementation of Part I of the Legal Aid and Advice Ordinance. There are two points which I would like to make, Sir. First, I see no provision to cover this implementation in the Budget, Sir. Do I take it that the House will be asked for supplementary provision at a very early date? Secondly, Sir, on the question of the necessity of co-operation from the Bar. I think the Minister is fully aware that this was completely thrashed out among themselves at the time prior to the introduction of the Bill and that though it is recognised that the co-operation of the Bar would be most helpful, the Bill is so framed that it is not essential.

Mr Chairman, Sir, an application for supplementary provision will be tabled early next month.

Thank you.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I think I should now give credit and thanks to the Government in having a section called "Public Assistance". Without this section, I am afraid the number of beggars on the streets will increase; but what I would like to say is this, Sir, that the amount of money given by this section is inadequate.

More tax!

More tax. On the other hand, I feel that this section should be decentralised rather than that it should all be concentrated in the Havelock Road building. The Minister for Labour and Welfare said earlier that I might have mistaken the people who go to that building for public assistance for people who want to register themselves for employment. Sir, that is the reason why I am now referring to the men and women who sit on the doorsteps of that building waiting for their turn to receive public assistance. People coming from Queenstown, Alexandra, Changi and Pasir Panjang to town have to cover about five to eight miles, and to do that and receive only $15 to $25 as assistance from the Department is, I think, a waste of time and transport.

I think the hon. Member is now embarking on a debate on the policy of the Public Assistance Section. If he wished for a debate on that particular section, he ought to have moved a conventional reduction of the vote. All that he can do now is just to ventilate what he wishes to ventilate, but he should not enter into a debate.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I am not trying to originate a debate, and neither am I debating any particular item under that Department. I am only referring to the policy of the Government in regard to public assistance. As I have said, it is rather heart-breaking to find women and children waiting in the hot sun for a whole day -

That is exactly what I am asking the hon. Member not to do. A debate on the policy of the Public Assistance Section is completely out of order, because he has not given notice of a reduction of the vote with reference to that particular Head.

I am sorry, Mr Chairman, Sir.

For the information of the Member for Queenstown, the Social Welfare Department is already decentralised to make payments of relief under the public assistance scheme. More and more centres will be opened as soon as experience is gained as to the benefits and the use to which these centres are being put.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $11,020,270 for Head 53 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 54- The sum of $135,600 for Head 54 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 55-

Mr Chairman, Sir, I move, To reduce by $1,000 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 21 (5) , Entertainment of Distinguished Visitors, on page 296 of the Estimates. Sir, I find that this vote is required "for refreshment supplied in the V.I.P. Room". I am rather puzzled as to who are "Distinguished Visitors" and who are V. I. P. 's. I thought V. I. P.'s cover everybody of importance, but now I find that out of that category of persons there is a new classification called "Distinguished Visitors", and these may be people who come to Singapore either on some urgent business or on consular business. Sir, the people going into the V.I.P. room are only in transit. They make use of the room while waiting for their planes. The room itself is not a canteen where drinks are supplied, and it should not be made into a canteen. Because there are "Distinguished Visitors" and there are V. I. P.'s, there will be discrimination against V. I. P.'s if this vote is passed. But if the vote is to cover all V. I. P.'s, then $1,000 is not enough. I do not know who are actually V. I. P.'s. I presume every Member of this Assembly is a V.I.P.

Including you!

Thank you! If, as the Minister for Education has pointed out, I am considered a V.I.P., then I would rather enjoy my tea in the V.I.P. room than in the C.P.A. room! I trust the Government will be more careful about such things and not turn a room for passengers in transit into a canteen. A canteen is entirely different. There is a restaurant at the airport, and if V. I. P.'s want a drink, they can easily have it at the restaurant rather than in the V.I.P. room. Sir, I beg to move. Question proposed.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I do not think I need go into details because it will be a waste of time. If the Member for Queenstown envisages wild parties of Assemblymen gathering to quaff champagne, watched by the Customs at one door, the police at the second and the Press at the third, he is living in a fool's paradise. The object of this vote is to ensure that, when some important personage passes through Singapore either stopping or on his way perhaps to Australia, there should be a possibility that the Airport Manager or the Airport Commandant or the Director-General should be able to say, "Would you like a drink?"; and if the important personage says "Yes", then it does not fall on the pocket of the permanent official but can properly be carried on the hospitality of the colony -

Order. The time has expired.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. The sum of $3,081,620 for Head 55 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

I would like to suggest to hon. Members that they keep their eyes skinned not only on the clock but also on the little "gadget" which the Clerk keeps turning on this table, so that if hon. Members wish to have replies from Ministers, they should give them adequate time to reply. Head 56- The sum of $1,119,590 for Head 56 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 57- The sum of $9,762,390 for Head 57 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 58- The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Lim Choon Mong - To reduce by $18,240 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1 (8) , Senior Quantity Surveyor, Grade G, on page 305 of the Estimates. To reduce by $6,000 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1 (29) , Lady Supervisor, Government Holiday Bungalows, on page 306 of the Estimates.

Mr Lim Choon Mong? He is not here? The sum of $4,797,590 for Head 58 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 59- The sum of $7,137,400 for Head 59 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head 60- The sum of $4,723,710 for Head 60 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. SECOND SCHEDULE Head D 9-

Mr Chairman, Sir, I move, To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 2, Division I Quarters, Jurong, on page 369 of the Estimates. Under this item, Sir, the sum of $45,000 is asked for building Division I quarters. To my mind, this is a high figure, unless some explanation can be given to us why the cost is so high. I have in mind particularly those houses built by the Ideal Homes in Whitley Road. There are about 200 houses there and they were sold to the public at $30,000 per house -

Order. I have, in fact, drawn the attention of hon. Members to the relevant Standing Order which says: "On any question in the Committee of Supply debate shall be confined to the policy of the service for which the money is to be provided...". The point raised by the hon. Member will be quite relevant when I come to propose the Question on the Main Head, but if he can develop a debate on policy on his amendment, then he is in order.

Sir, I was coming to the policy of the high cost of building, but as time is so short, I think I will not proceed with my amendment but will speak on the Main Head. Question proposed, "That the sum of $64,000 for Head D 9 stand part of the Schedule."

Sir, I just want to point out that all these houses were sold at $30,000 each and they included 10,000 square feet of land in town, making of roads and provision for sanitation and septic tanks, and to my mind $45,000 for a bungalow alone is fantastic. I would invite the authorities to go and see this house and have an estimate made later on.

Very briefly, Mr Chairman, Sir, these are standard Division I quarters providing for two bedrooms, a lounge, a dining room, servants quarters, W.C, sanitation and a garage, and are of very simple construction using 4� inch walls of hollow concrete blocks, and if you built the house by itself, it would cost about $28,000. But the cost, in fact, includes $10,000 to $12,000 extra for water and electricity supply and sewerage disposal. There is also the cost for furniture included in the $45,000 - that is $3,500 - and supervision charges for a clerk of works at the site. You will realise, Sir, that Jurong is a remote area where one has not got all the services and you have to put on the ancillary costs which are a very large element in the total cost of the house. A similar house completed only six months ago worked out to a little over a dollar a foot cube and a similar house at Mount Pleasant was built at a cost of $38,000, that is, a saving of $7,000. There is not enough time, Mr Chairman, Sir, to give a much longer speech on building costs, but I hope to do so as soon as sufficiently long time is allotted to this Head.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $64,000 for Head D 9 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Inche Ahmad Bin Ibrahim rose -

Is it on a point of order?

I just want to ask one question, Sir, on Head D 9.

I am afraid the hon. Member is too late. Head D 10- The sum of $30,000 for Head D 10 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 12-

Mr Deputy Chairman, Sir, I move, To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 2, Royal Malayan Navy - Shipbuilding, on page 371 of the Estimates. Sir, unlike the Member for Cairnhill -

On a point of order, Sir, from the terms of the motion and indeed on the Order Paper itself, His Excellency's recommendation or consent must be signified to this motion.

I was just going to ask that. Has the hon. Member the recommendation or consent of the Governor to proceed with this motion?

Mr Deputy Chairman, Sir, I would enquire from the Hon. the Attorney-General, or is it the Chief Secretary, whether the Governor's consent has been obtained?

This is my Ministry, Sir. I do signify that the Governor has consented.

Sir, unlike the Member for Cairnhill, who objects to the provision made for the Royal Malayan Navy in this Budget, I strongly support the retention of this fine body of men who, I am sure, will carry on the fine tradition handed down by those who saw action during the last war. We have already spent many millions of dollars to create that force. It will indeed be a tragic waste of public money to disband it now. When we achieve independence and self-government, surely a country like ours, surrounded by the sea, must have a navy of our own, no matter how small? Rather than have two infantry battalions and scrap the Royal Malayan Navy, I would have one infantry battalion and the Royal Malayan Navy, because the Navy, besides patrolling the seas around us, can always come to the assistance of the Government in case of any threat to internal security. I do, however, agree with the view of the Member for Cairnhill regarding what he contemptuously described as a "toy Navy" for which we are asked to provide $15 million, but for very different reasons. Sir, I think $15 million is a very, very large sum to spend at this time on a method of warfare which, to my mind, will never be used again. Today, with the development of atomic energy, warfare is moving into another stage altogether. With guided missiles, atomic war-heads and, in a few years' time, aeroplanes and warships propelled by nuclear energy, we must think of different types of warfare. To my mind, minesweeping will be out of the picture, for in any big conflict, the nation that controls the air will control the sea and hardly any ship will be able to move. Besides, I can think of other ways of removing mines instead of using these cumbersome minesweepers which were developed before the last war. Sir, we now have helicopters which are being used by the Army for detecting land mines. There is no reason why two helicopters cannot, between them, pull a mine detector over the sea for the purposes of mine detection. Then again these helicopters can use those devices which at present are being used by ships for spotting shoals of fish, and the discovery of any mine by the helicopters can be left to "frogmen" to dispose of. What I have suggested may seem to be a bit silly, but many of these suggestions have been adopted in warfare and have proved to be completely effective. Sir, even if my surmises are incorrect, the sweeping of mines will be principally for the benefit of the Commonwealth nations, and I see no reason why they should not assist us by lending us minesweepers, now lying idle, for training our men and supplying us with minesweepers in time of war. I think we should use obsolete vessels for obsolescent warfare instead of having to build warships which may be useless by the time they are completed. This $15 million can then be allocated for the benefit of the social services or even to prevent an increase of income tax on the lower income groups in the years to come, instead of spending it on the Royal Malayan Navy. The Hon. the Chief Secretary has informed us that it is possible that the Federation, on her attainment of independence, will take over this responsibility now assumed by us. Until that question is settled, we must record our objection to this expenditure. Question proposed.

If it please you, Mr Deputy Chairman, Sir, when one defends the undefendable, the proper technique which has always been recognised is to indulge in platitudes with one's hand on one's heart. We have heard from the Chief Secretary, in tones of ringing emotion, of the wonderful work being done to build the spirit of these men in accordance with the tradition of those who did so magnificently during the war. The Chief Secretary did not, of course, point out that the men who did so magnificently during the war were not the Royal Malayan Navy but the Malayan Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve; nor did he point out that I did not criticise the allocation for the Malayan Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve of $744,710 but, in fact, voted with the rest in accepting it without demur. Those are the men who did good service and it might well be a valuable service for local needs. The Royal Malayan Navy, Sir, is another kettle of fish. The Chief Secretary did not also tell you that 85 per cent of the personnel, who are small in number, come from the Federation, and it is for these that we have to spend $4 million annually recurrent and $15 million for these minesweepers. The Chief Secretary also told you of the wonderful work which was done during the war in minesweeping. I am not aware, Sir, and perhaps he will term me ignorant, of any enemy power which dropped any mines in any territory connected with the Federation or Singapore. It is true that the Royal Navy planted mines in the approaches to Singapore, and I suppose it will be anticipated that mines will be planted in future wars; but let us recognise the fact, Sir, that this enormous expenditure is a horrible waste of money with no relation to the needs of this territory; because it is said we are surrounded by water, we need a Navy for internal security. I do not know if it is going to go up Kallang River to subdue Bukit Timah. Is the Navy small enough to go up the canal? I do not know the type of work which the Member for Paya Lebar has in mind in suggesting that these little boats can be used for internal security, but let the voice of experience speak, Sir. They have been of no value to this territory in that matter. In respect of customs, we have very expensive programme of ships to assist against smuggling and they can, in time of need, be turned very rapidly for offensive purposes. I cannot understand how any Member in this House can complacently view this great expenditure annually recurrent and this provision which calls upon us to accept it as a matter of principle - an expenditure of $15 million for four very small ships to sweep mines. Sir, I would much rather see this $15 million used to sweep poverty, which has existed, instead of imaginary mines which never did and cannot exist. What kind of war do you think, Sir, will ever occur in which the provision of four minesweepers by this territory could be of any value to itself. Finally let us not forget the basic principle. The United Kingdom has insisted, and its insistence has been acceded to, on the control of external defence of this territory. It wants complete, absolute and unquestioned control and it has got it, and it will get it again if there is any merdeka at all. So long as that is true, Sir, is it fair to call upon the people of this territory to give a substantial part of the public revenue to purposes over which they have no control?

Sir, there seems to be some conflict of opinion between the two hon. Members who have spoken. One clearly supports the continued existence of the Royal Malayan Navy, which is consistent, of course, with the line that was taken by the previous Government. The other, the Member for Cairnhill, obviously does not like the Royal Malayan Navy or to have anything to do with it. I have not the time to answer in detail, Sir, but I would like to make one or two quick points. The first point is whether or not it is quite a waste of money to have any vessels to sweep mines here. It may be that people will not drop mines in a future war. It may be that it will not be necessary to lay a defensive minefield around Singapore. But if it is necessary to lay a minefield, or if enemies do drop mines from the air, then you will have to have minesweepers, just as minesweepers had been used right up to the last day of the recent hostilities. I rather doubt whether it is possible to use an aircraft to drop frogmen. I also -

Order, please. I am afraid the time is up.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. The time allotted for Head D 12 having expired, the following amendment, understanding in the name of Mr John Ede, was not proceeded with: (Governor's recommendation or consent to be signified.) To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 3, Singapore Military Forces - Equipment for Singapore Battalion, on page 371 of the Estimates. The sum of $3,469,000 for Head D 12 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 16- The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck - To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1, Garages for Radio Vehicles, on page 372 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 3, New Divisional Headquarters, Queenstown, on page 372 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 4, New Headquarters, Special Branch, on page 372 of the Estimates.

Mr Deputy Chairman, Sir, may I withdraw all the three amendments which I have put down under this Head and speak on the Main Head?

The hon. Member does not intend to move all his three amendments?

I do not intend to move them, Sir. Question proposed, "That the sum of $1,873,000 for Head D 16 stand part of the Schedule."

Sir, the amendments filed by me under this Development Head are mainly for the purpose of getting information from the departments concerned and criticising any unnecessary expenditure if we can spot it. I have therefore asked to speak on the general Head instead of on the different items, but I shall come down to the items themselves later. On the question of expenditure for building, I spoke quite a lot about it last year, but then I was still a greenhorn and my experience regarding methods of building was rather limited, but during the present year I have taken pains to go into costs and I think I can now speak with more authority. It is gratifying to me to know that in certain aspects costs of building by the Public Works Department, particularly where primary schools are concerned, have come down a great deal, more particularly so when I found that the expenditure for converting a boys' hostel into flats for nurses was $100,000 instead of $200,000, after repeated arguments between the Minister for Communications and Works and myself in this Chamber last year. While I will admit that costs have come down, I still say that there is room for further reduction. The debates that we have during this week have shown us how tight money is going to be and how pressed we shall be for finances to be able to carry out the programme for our schools and hospitals and other social work. I must therefore keep on hammering at this House and insist on the most economical method of building for the public services, taking away all the trimmings if necessary. We have come to a stage where we must, I think, build for utility and not as a monument for posterity. I will come now to the items on which I wish to speak. The first one is the $100,000 that is being asked for garages for radio vehicles. This seems to me to be a very large sum for garages. The second item is $700,000 being asked for to provide new Divisional Headquarters for Queenstown. For this sum I visualise a rather sumptuous office and I should like to know some of the costs for this building. Then we come to the super building - $2 million for the new Headquarters of the Special Branch. If we were to spend millions of dollars for all these items, I am afraid the finances of the colony will not be able to stand it, and I would like to have some explanation of the money asked for under this Head.

I will try and answer the queries of the Member for Paya Lebar as quickly as I can, Mr Deputy Chairman, Sir. I had better try and put this in perspective first by referring to the Public Works Department's Report of a comparable territory where I find they have done the equivalent of about (Malayan) $62 million worth of work, and personal emoluments and similar overheads amounted to $18� million - in other words, 14.9 per cent of the total expenditure. Sir, Singapore is only 6 per cent. So, in regard to that particular territory, we are very much more economical in personal emoluments, which is an important factor, of course, in the final cost of the building. Just as a matter of interest, the expatriate staff in that territory's building works totalled 176 persons, at a total expenditure equivalent to (Malayan) $62 million, compared to (Malayan) $48 million here where we are using only 28 expatriates, which is a very considerable difference. In other words, we are doing 80 per cent as much work and we are using only 16 per cent of expatriate staff. In fact, I think half the -

On a point of information, Sir. Could we know the name of this territory?

It is Hongkong. Sir, I think this reflects well on the progress of Malayanisation achieved so far in this territory and also on the general efficiency of the department. I must pass on as quickly as I can, Mr Deputy Chairman, Sir. I wish to point out that I have given details in the past of the machinery by which we try to effect our policy of economy and austerity - we have various committees at different levels - and I have also given details of the achievements which we have made in economy, and very handsome achievements they are. I will not waste time repeating them. I just wish to point out that we do control the designs of our buildings, but we cannot control the prices, which depend on the tenders offered. There is a suggestion that the quarters may be too lavish. I have with me the agreed scale of quarters for medical staff: housemen get 310 square feet per person at a cost of $13,000; matrons in charge get 825 square feet per person at a cost of $24,500; student nurses get 80 square feet per person at a cost of $4,500. But whatever we agree as to the standard of building, the price will still depend on what the building trade is able to produce in the way of tenders which are competitive; and in that connection must remark that the building trade is not at the moment producing as man tenders as it used to in the past. In fact, for one large job no tenders were received and we had to put it out for tender again. Costs are also rising, partly as a result of the current Suez crisis, and whilst I will give some figures in a minute, I cannot guarantee that they will be figures which will exist when the next lot of tenders come in, because the situation is too fluid. I will pass on to some more figures for buildings. Let us take hospitals again. You divide them into three categories - A, B and C. That part of the hospital which has to be scrupulously aseptic, with a high standard of finishes, operating theatres, and so on, category A, we build at a cost of $1.41 a cubic foot. In category B, mostly wards in major hospitals, where you have to make sure that they are clean and where you do not want to spend money on cleaning and on maintenance which you have saved on building, we build at $1.05 a cubic foot; and for the places where you can omit the expensive finishes, category C, we get the cost down to 84 cents a cubic foot. We can vary our standards in accordance with what we can get the department to accept. That is one variable factor. Another variable factor is, of course, that we cannot necessarily choose our sites and say, "We will choose a site where we can build economically." We may have to put a school or a hospital where it will serve the public needs, and the only site we can get may be a difficult one. I will refer to the piled foundation costs for schools -

Order, please. I am afraid the time is up.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $1,873,000 for Head D 16 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 17- The sum of $50,000 for Head D 17 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 18- The sum of $137,000 for Head D 18 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 28- The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck - To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1, Quarters for Preventive Staff, on page 375 of the Estimates.

Mr Deputy Chairman, Sir, I would like to withdraw my amendment because, from the explanatory note against this item, it would appear as if 46 houses were going to cost $1,750,000; but I have been assured by the Hon. the Financial Secretary that 300 houses are to be built for this sum, and I am satisfied with that figure.

The hon. Member is not moving his amendment?

No, Sir. The sum of $545,000 for Head D 28 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 38- The sum of $907,000 for Head D 38 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 42- The sum of $480,000 for Head D 42 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 44- Question proposed, "That the sum of $17,615,350 for Head D 44 stand part of the Schedule."

If it please you, Sir, I note with some regret that the provision for the acquisition and development of sites for resettlement is less for 1957 than it was for 1956. It may well be that we will be provided with a wholly satisfactory reason, but for myself I would like to hear of an imaginative approach to the problem of the acquisition of existing insanitary kampongs and the rehabilitation of those areas to make them fit for human beings. Sir, large masses of people live in these clusters of insanitary homes without adequate hygienic provisions and sometimes without water, and it is in these regions that there is a very wide field for the implementation of the Government's programme of socialist assistance and welfare for the under-privileged. I do ask the Government to consider thoroughly the immediate acquisition of a few kampongs purchased from the owners of the land, and to provide roads, sanitation and water and realign the houses in these areas. Sir, in that field lies the most fruitful endeavour for assistance of the under-privileged and to meet the threat which we all fear can only come through the frustration of unfortunates who have nothing but their misery to lose.

Mr Deputy Chairman, Sir, on the point raised by the Member for Cairnhill - why is it that the provision for the acquisition and development of sites for resettlement is less for 1957 than it was for 1956 - the position is this: that although for 1956 the sum of $4,800,000 was voted by this Assembly, it is not expected that that amount will be expended by the end of this year; so the amount asked for - $4,000,000 - for 1957 is the probable amount that would be expended by the Land Office for the acquisition and development of sites for resettlement. On the second point raised by the Member for Cairnhill - that Government should purchase kampongs in Singapore in order to rehabilitate the people living therein - I personally think that his suggestion should not be debated under item 1, because the amount asked for in this item is for the acquisition and development of sites for resettlement of farmers and squatters in various parts of the island, particularly in relation to the building programme of the Singapore Improvement Trust. However, I can assure the hon. Member that his suggestion will be considered favourably by the Government.

Thank you.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $17,615,350 for Head D 44 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Mr R. C. H. Lim(Mr Deputy Speaker); Head D 46-

Mr Deputy Chairman, Sir, I move, To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 6 (3), Primary Schools - Group D, on page 379 of the Estimates. Sir, in response to my written question for information on the cost of building a school in 1955 and 1956, I have received a detailed answer which provides a number of interesting facts. The cost of schools finished in 1956 ranges from the Tanjong Katong Secondary Technical School at $1,047,229 to a group of three primary schools at Bukit Merah which average $236,000 each. It is notable that $185,000 was spent on the piled foundation for the Tanjong Katong and $26,000 for the three Bukit Merah schools. The former site seems to have been somewhat ill chosen. Taking the average for the 21 primary schools completed in 1956, $30,000 per school was spent on piling and $190,000 per school on the building, that is, omitting the cost of the sites and the expenditure on grounds, fencing, drainage roads and so on. Piling has become expensive because of the three-storey construction which is now fashionable. Regarding the bringing down of costs, the Minister for Communications and Works said that he would welcome suggestions, and I have a suggestion to make regarding schools in the rural areas. In Ulu Pandan the new barracks for the Singapore Battalion are being erected as temporary buildings. These are cheaply built one-storey buildings with walls made of some specially treated hardboard, but they look solid and serviceable. I have no doubt that in ten years' time they will still be standing, they will still be serviceable, and they will still be called temporary. The advantage is that they can be built with the minimum of site clearance and they need not be built on a large piece of flat ground, and no piling is required. I know that the Minister for Communications and Works will look at me rather sadly and repeat that I have not done my home-work, and like the painstaking school-master that he is, he is going to tell me about higher maintenance costs all over again. But, Sir, I think there is too much of this fetish of erecting buildings to last for a century. In this rapidly changing world and this rapidly changing Singapore, there is something to be said for planning for ten to fifteen years instead of the next generation or two in certain types of building for certain purposes. Building techniques change. Teaching requirements in a certain area can change, and I can see no harm in allowing for them and in trying to use cheaper materials on an experimental basis for some of our schools. What is good enough for the Singapore Battalion should be good enough to try in our schools, bearing in mind that it is the character and the ability of the teacher which matter in education and not the material that the walls are made of. This is not to say that I am not appreciative of the economy of school building. The Minister gave us facts about it the other day. I am also mindful of the enormous changes which have come over Singapore in ten years since the war. The changes in the next decade will be equally enormous, probably even more so. Sometimes I think that we are caught too much in the grip of expert planners who wish to plan our future much further ahead than we ourselves can see. I know, Sir, that for expressing these awful heresies, I should probably go down to the bottom of the class, but nevertheless I hope that the Minister for Education and his educational experts will remember that many students on this island today are being taught quite successfully in schools not made or bricks and mortar. Lastly, I want to refer to one small matter on page 379 of the Estimates - the point on which I am moving this amendment. It seems to me a question of primary school mathematics. Under "Group D - fifteen schools", there is an estimate of $4,680,000; whereas under "Group C - eighteen schools", there is provision for a similar amount. It would seem to me, therefore, that it is proposed to spend more per school under Group D than Group C. Question proposed.

Mr Deputy Chairman, Sir, as regards the same provision for Group C and Group D, perhaps I can explain to the Member for Tanglin that the 15 primary schools in Group D are designed to accommodate as many pupils as the 18 schools in Group C. By reducing the dimensions and simplifying the structure, it was the aim to reduce the total cost of the schools in Group D. Each of the new type schools in Group D has 18 classrooms and the cost is expected to be reduced by a considerable amount at least, but the costs of material and labour have remained unchanged. In fact, in certain respects, costs have increased by 16 per cent. The Suez crisis has caused contractors to be somewhat nervous about the prices of steel and cement and also other important building materials. Moreover, the best sites have been used up and I think future sites will cost even more, especially in regard to piling, levelling and filling. The suggestion that cheaper buildings be built has been gone into by my Ministry and the Ministry of Communications and Works. We have not lost sight of it. We have, in fact, a building committee meeting very frequently to deliberate on the question. Some people have advocated to me that, in the interests of economy, wood and attap buildings be put up. When we went into this question, it was found to be more uneconomical, as both wood and attap have to be imported from the Federation of Malaya, our nearest neighbour, and they would therefore cost us more than they do the Federation. Vacant land is also scarce and we have to build three - or four-storey schools and plan for the future. We have also to take into consideration the Master Plan. New satellite towns are being planned. Areas have been ear-marked for green belts and open space, and we have to plan our schools accordingly. Instead of putting up cheap wooden huts or attap buildings, we have now planned to put up cheap smaller schools in the rural areas, so that they can last for ten to twenty years, by which time, of course, we may plan for bigger buildings if the demand justifies it. Sir, I should also like to mention that bricks and tiles are manufactured in Singapore, and if we build schools with bricks and tiles, we are actually giving employment to thousands of people. However, I wish to assure the Member for Tanglin and the House in general that we are always trying to reduce our costs but, at the same time, taking into consideration the cost of maintenance, sites, and other questions related to the building.

Will the Minister for Education take into consideration the building of the Singapore Battalion at Ulu Pandan? He has not mentioned that point They are prefabricated buildings and I am quite certain they will last for several years and will be used for several years.

I will certainly consider that point, but, of course, I have to get the advice of experts.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

There is another amendment put down by the Member for Paya Lebar (Mr Lim Koon Teck) under this Head which, I think, could be taken up after the suspension. I will suspend the sitting now. Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the Assembly.

The sitting will be resumed at 2.30 p.m. Sitting accordingly suspended at 12.21 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. Sitting resumed at 2.30 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, may I have your consent and the assent of this House to move, That the proceedings on the business set down for this day be exempted from the provisions of Standing Order No. 7.

Have I the assent of hon. Members that that should be so? Hon. Members: Aye.

Thank you, Sir. I move, That the proceedings on the business set down for this day be exempted from the provisions of Standing Order No. 7.

I second it.

Question put, and agreed to. Resolved, That the proceedings on the business set down for this day be exempted from the provisions of Standing Order No. 7.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I move, That at its rising at the termination of business this day, the Assembly do stand adjourned to Wednesday, 5th December, 1956.

I second it.

Question put, and agreed to. Resolved, That at its rising at the termination of business this day, the Assembly do stand adjourned to Wednesday, 5th December, 1956.

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed. Head D 46-

(Continued)

We are on Head D 46. The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck - To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 13, Singapore Polytechnic, on page 379 of the Estimates.

Sir, I wish to withdraw this motion and speak under the general Head. Question proposed, "That the sum of $17,020,140 for Head D 46 stand part of the Schedule."

There are now 25 minutes left.

Sir, when we were informed that the Polytechnic was going to cost at least three times as much as budgeted for, in the first instance, a great deal of agitation was shown by every Member of this Assembly and the public of Singapore. Since then, we have been told that most of the cost is due to the expansion or to the more ambitious planning and not so much due to the cost of the building itself. All the same, I think that we have to go into detail and see that this vast expenditure of nearly $10 miIlion should be carefully used. The biggest item of the Polytechnic is the six-storey teaching block which will cost round about $3 million, working out at about $20 a square foot. The Minister for Communications and Works has given us an indication of the cost of round about $13 a square foot for the three-storey primary schools. I think personally that the cost of this Polytechnic for the six-storey building can be brought more or less in line with the cost of these primary schools. We know very well that the main cost of the building is the finishing. It can cost as much as the structure itself. I do not propose that any alteration should be made to this structure because I understand that the job is ready for tender and part of it is already being built but I do submit that we and the Estimates Committee of which I am a Member should go into great detail and see what cost we can cut down in the ornaments of this building. Another item which attracted our attention was the very, very big provision for the architect's fee. If the job were competed as visualised now costing $8 million for the buildings alone, we would have to pay the architect $800,000. This I submit, Sir, is a stupendous amount. In the Budget today, the programme is cut down and we are asked to budget for $5� million for which we will have to pay the architect just over half a million dollars. When we went into the question of why such a big fee has to be paid, we found that under the Architects Ordinance, there is provision whereby the flat fee of 7� per cent was to be charged and the architects' stand is that they are bound by that scale of fees and they cannot give us any reduction. This scale of fees was approved by this Assembly only last June when I was away but Members of this Assembly have told me that had they realised that this amounted to 7� per cent plus 2� per cent for quantity survey, making it ten per cent in all and had they been informed of this enormous sum of half a million dollars, they would not have agreed to this scale of fees. In fact, so many of them are so agitated that there is a definite move to repeal section 4 of the Architects Ordinance whereby the power that was given to the Architects' Board to fix the fee will be taken away from them. I think this is rather a hasty move. I have consulted many architects and I am told that the position of architects is quite different from that of other people. They are more or less like the lawyers in that, if there is any defect in the building or should the building fall down, they have to make good. They have to carry that responsibility simply because the City Council and the Government do not have enough supervisors to watch the progress of a building. Therefore the responsibility is passed over to the architects for which it is quite reasonable that he should be sufficiently remunerated but at this scale, when $10 million of public money is involved and, in about two years, an architect can earn between half a million dollars to $800,000, then I think that all Members will agree with me - in fact, many of them are insisting - that this scale should be sent back to the Board of Architects with a request that it should be revised so that there is a reducing scale say: after the first half a million dollars or a million dollars, if you like, there should be a reducing scale and make this whole fee reasonable and acceptable to us. This revised scale -

Order. I take it that the hon. Member is still on the subject of the Singapore Polytechnic?

Yes, Sir, because this is connected with the half a million dollars payable by us. The suggestion that I make is that the whole scale should be referred back to them and then it should come back for approval. There is a similar scale of fees charged by the solicitors in Singapore for conveyancing and their scale runs from 4� per cent for the first thousand dollars to about half per cent for any amount over half a million dollars. I am not suggesting that the same amounts should apply. 2.40 p.m.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I very much regret that there is no contribution made under this Head or items to the Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka (which means the Institute of Malay Language and Literature). This body, Sir, is sponsored primarily by the Federation Government and is aimed at making the Malay language the truly national language of the country. I am sure, Sir, that this is in line with our aspirations for a united Malaya in future. Sir, if I remember rightly, the Assistant Minister for Education was present at the opening of the Language and Literary Congress in Johore Bahru on the 18th of September, 1956, representing the Minister for Education. He said in his speech, Sir, "The Congress will be given every assistance from the Singapore Government to the learning and teaching of the Malay language," and yet, Sir, only the Federation Government is subsidising the Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka. What can be better proof of this Government's sincerity to the statement made by the Assistant Minister for Education than to join the Federation in subsidising this Institute? Certainly, Sir, $l25,000 spent on this Institute would have brought much greater result to a greater number of people than the $125,000 given to the Young Women's Christian Association. 2.42 p.m.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I rise to endorse the statement just made by the Member for Paya Lebar regarding the criticisms on the Polytechnic. I will also practise speech control, and I wish only to add that the Minister for Education should carefully consider this widely criticised project, and make sure that every cent allocated to it by the Education Board is well spent, because this is our hard-earned money and we are in very great need of it to implement our educational policy. Sir, I wish to touch upon the subject of grants-in-aid. I am very happy indeed to see the size of the capital grant given to vernacular schools, especially the increase grant to help Chinese schools, but I wish the Government will not stop at doing only that. More money should be given to expand vernacular education in this country. Lastly, I do not know whether I am correct or not, but I remember it was mentioned in the Governor's Address regarding the educational policy that the Government was looking forward to helping Nanyang University but I am surprised to find in these Development Estimates no indication of Government's intention to do so. 2.44 p.m.

Mr Chairman, Sir, before I say anything on this subject, I wish to make it clear that I realise how important the Polytechnic is to Singapore and that no expense should be spared in making this the best one possible but, at the same time, I cannot see the necessity for a luxurious building. As an architect, Sir, I am unable even to allow my imagination to stretch to whatever extent I may that the Government should ask for $5� million for the Polytechnic whereas the Nanyang University which has three Faculties, a library, hostels for about 600 students, a sewerage purification plant and about a couple of miles of road could be built for less than $3� million. Since the announcement of the revised cost, strong criticism has been made by Members of this House as well as the public and the Press of the high cost. In this respect, Sir, I am grateful to the Government for sending me a memorandum giving an explanation of how this cost is arrived at. I have gone through the memorandum thoroughly and I for one am not convinced with the explanation at all. For instance, $30 per square foot has been given as the estimate of the cost of a square foot of the Polytechnic whereas the hotel now being built by a Class A P.W.D. contractor in Orchard Road includes shops downstairs, a restaurant and 140 bed-rooms upstairs, each with a bath-room attached complete with all fittings, including piling which goes down to 70 feet and it only costs $12.50 a square foot. If piling is excluded, it will come down to $11 a square foot. Another instance is the Nanyang Girls' School which is also being built by another Class A P.W.D. contractor and which works out at less than $8 per square foot complete. Numerous instances could be quoted in comparison, if desired. Even allowing for foundation for heavy machinery and extra heights of rooms, I think that the $30 per square foot quoted is still fantastic. I do agree with the Member for Paya Lebar that the question of architects' fees should be reconsidered. As an architect, Sir, I do welcome such protection but as a Member of this House who has to protect the public, I must ask the Government to have this vote amended at an early date.

Well said.

Another point put up by the Government in the memorandum is that the Government could not do it cheaper than a private architect because they would have to engage quantity surveyors of whom they have none or, at least, none available yet. Are quantities really required for a building like the Polytechnic? Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of buildings have been constructed by the Singapore Improvement Trust and private architects in the past few years and none of them had quantities. No such practice is adopted in America. In fact, some years ago, the Singapore Improvement Trust put up two tenders for some flats on exactly the same plan and specification: one with quantities and the other without. The tender for the one with quantities came out eight per cent higher than the one without quantities. In cutting out quantities, the Government will not only save on the fees of the quantity surveyor but it will also save on the price of the tender because I know of many instances where contractors have had to wait for months to get paid as the quantity surveyor engaged by the Government was overwhelmed with work. If one has to wait so long for his money, one naturally increases his price. The Government seems to have a tendency of spending lavishly on buildings, if left unchecked. They do not seem to realise the value of money at all. For instance, I know of a case where they put a $3 per square foot floor finish for some flats at Leonie Hill which are only meant for junior officers. I myself have designed houses for millionaires and luxurious flats and at no time has the floor finish cost exceeded $2 per square foot. Another instance is the recently completed Nurses Hostel. I remember distinctly that the Minister for Communications and Works said at its opening that the Government had brought down the cost from $6,000 per unit to $4,000 per unit. I think that the Minister concerned should be congratulated for his good work. If the Government could make a saving in this case, why did not the Government make it in previous cases? From this, hon. Members can see that if Government takes the trouble to scrutinise the cost carefully, savings could be made. I therefore plead with Government to appoint a committee to go into the matter thoroughly thereby hoping that the cost might be reduced by one-third or more as the Nurses Hostel which opened lately. 2.52 p.m.

Sir, recently there has been a very great deal of uninformed criticism about the cost of the Polytechnic and I would like to take this opportunity of stating the facts clearly once and for all. The Report issued by the Dobby Committee, the first Committee to go into the question of the Polytechnic, stated that the estimated capital cost of the Polytechnic would be $8 million. The Report did not, however, go into details as to how this figure was made up. When Mr Gibson came out to make an investigation into the question of establishing the Polytechnic, he did, in fact, make a rough estimate of cost and that is broken down as follows: Buildings $3.7 million; Furniture and Fittings for the Buildings $47 million; Heavy Equipment $1.01 million, making a total of $5,196,000. This figure was accepted by Government until such time as plans could be drawn and accurate estimates of cost made. Planning did proceed thereafter and a firm of private architects was employed on the recommendation of the Executive Council with the consent of the Finance Committee of the then Legislative Council. When their plans were completed, they were sent home to the Secretary of State's Board of Advisers on Technical Colleges. This Board immediately condemned the plans in so far as only seven acres of land were used and the area, having regard to the buildings which would be placed in it and the functions which they would have to serve, would be too congested. Subsequently, therefore, the architects were asked to re-draw their plans and they did so. The estimate of cost of the new plans is as follows: Site preparation will take $150,000. The workshop and navigation block, which Mr Gibson left out of his estimate, will total $986,000. The six-storey teaching block, which is the main part of the Polytechnic, will cost $956,000. The administrative block, library and lecture rooms above the administration building will cost $766,000. The architects' fees will come to $504,000; making a total of $5,362,884. In addition, it had been suggested that a gymnasium and students' union costing $253,000 and an auditorium and canteen costing $1,689,000, making a total of $1,942,000 should be undertaken. In addition also, heavy equipment for the Polytechnic including furniture and fittings is estimated now to cost $2,500,000. When these estimates came to me in my capacity as Financial Secretary, I immediately asked the Director of Public Works to examine them with a tine tooth-comb to see that they were accurate in all respects. Then the Director of Works in answer to my request turned them over to the Chief Architect of the Government who examined them and found that they were in all respects reasonable minimum estimates of the cost of the amount of work which had to be done. At that stage, I held a meeting with all people connected with the Polytechnic, and it was decided, and subsequently confirmed by the Council of Ministers, that we would go ahead for the time being with work amounting to $5.5 million and, of course, with the purchase of equipment to the tune of $2,500,000, leaving the other work - gymnasium and students' union, auditorium and canteen - to be undertaken at some future date if money were available. It was made clear that no undertaking could be given to the Board of Trustees of the Polytechnic that this additional work would subsequently be undertaken. In the opinion of the Committee which sat on the matter in my office, this work was not regarded as essential to the successful operation of the Polytechnic. Now, Sir, at the moment, Government's total commitment in respect of the Polytechnic is $5.5 million in respect of capital works and $2.5 million in respect of equipment, making a total of $8 million altogether. The other work on the gymnasium, students' union, auditorium and canteen will be left until very much later and will then depend upon whether funds are available. There are two other items which I should mention: a request from the Board of Trustees of the Polytechnic for the provision of playing-fields which was estimated to cost $500,000 and the provision of $1 million for houses. Both of these requests have been turned down. It is hoped that accommodation for expatriate officers who will have to be employed by the Polytechnic will be found amongst existing Government quarters. On the question of the cost of the building in terms of square feet which has been mentioned, I regret to say that I am not in a position to confirm or refute that statement. I do however know that in the case of the six-storey teaching block which is the largest item in the Polytechnic, the total cost of that building is $2.9 million and the cubic footage of that particular building is 1.4 million cubic feet.

Order. The time has expired.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $17,020,140 for Head D 46 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 47- The sum of $500,000 for Head D 47 ordered to stand part of the Schedule Head D 48- The sum of $25,000 for Head D 48 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 49-

Mr Chairman, Sir, I move, To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 5, First District Hospital, on page 383 of the Estimates. I do so, Sir, because I see that the estimated cost has now gone to $6� million instead of $3,200,000 as at first budgeted. I would like to know the policy of Government on this matter: Why is it necessary to double the cost of this particular hospital? Question proposed. 3.01p.m.

Mr Chairman, Sir, the first estimate of $3.2 million was based on a pure paper calculation of the cubic measurement of the schedule of accommodation for a 400-bed hospital without provision of residential accommodation. That estimate was also made without any knowledge of the site to be chosen. The new estimate of $6.5 million includes $2 million for quarters for residential staff, Medical Superintendent, sisters, nurses and servants. It also allows for the provision of 450 beds. Fifty additional maternity beds have been added, making a total of 100 because of the very evident pressure on Kandang Kerbau Hospital where accommodation has reached saturation point and where overcrowding constitutes now a real danger to the new-born. It was also made with knowledge of the site. I think that, at the last sitting here, in answer to the same hon. gentleman, I gave an account to the House of the cause of the delay on the final choice of the site. A multi-storeyed building is envisaged on the land which is to be acquired on East Coast Road, at the end of Tanah Merah Ketchil Road. A pavilion hospital of 450 beds is not an economic proposition, because, firstly, it would require 40 acres of flat land instead of 18 acres at present envisaged. It would not be cheaper to build because foundations, roofs, sewage pipes, water distribution, electric distribution, piping of steam and oxygen, and so forth, would be far more extensive than in a compact multi-storeyed building. Furthermore, recurrent costs would be higher because a larger supervisory and subordinate staff is required to make up for the time wasted in walking long distances between wards and departments.

Telephone. 3.04 p.m.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I regard what the hon. Minister said as completely unsatisfactory. The changes in Government's policy regarding this hospital require a great deal more explanation than we have so far been given. Sir, hon. Members will remember that last year, we were informed that the original choice of a site for this hospital was at Katong somewhere near the Sea View Hotel and that it was being scrapped in favour of a site at the Kallang airport. Sir, last year, I spoke as follows on this very subject; if I may have your permission to quote, from what I said, column 1335 of our Hansard: "...I can readily believe that most of the old airfield area is not suitable for heavy buildings because of piling problems on reclaimed land... Is the new district hospital then to cost more than it need because it is going to be built on an unsuitable site? Is a great deal of piling going to put up the cost per bed of this hospital? Is the Minister satisfied that this is not only the best site geographically but also the cheapest from the taxpayers' point of view? I hope that hon. Members opposite will not feel that these are destructive, sterile questions. What we want is to be convinced that the right decisions have been made in the public interests." Sir, in reply to that, the Minister for Communications and Works came to the rescue of his colleague and stated: "Perhaps I can help him out on some technical details about that one. The first non-technical detail, of course, is that the site there is already Government property. We have not got to pay very high prices for it. In that respect, of course, the site is eminently eligible because it is free. Secondly, it is eligible because it is very well situated from a demographic point of view because the population around is both heavy and poor and it is therefore a very suitable place for a hospital to be where the poor people can get into it easily." Now, Sir, one year later, the choice of a new site is made in the Bedok area which is a less populous area and the cost is to be doubled. We are told that the estimate of $3,200,000 was done without knowledge of the site to be chosen and I submit, Sir, therefore, that the figures given last year were, in some respects, bogus.

Order. I cannot allow the word "bogus".

I withdraw that word, Sir, and I will use the word "inaccurate". I would like also, if I may, to refer to column 1342 in the same debate in which the Minister said: "...the sum of $3,200,000 is for a 450-bed hospital with all the equipment and conveniences." Why this change of thought? Why this change of plan? Why the doubling of this estimate? It seems to me a monstrous waste of time and a monstrous waste of public money. 3.08 p.m.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I thought that I gave a full explanation of that at the last sitting. I do not know whether the Member for Tanglin was paying sufficient attention. The Kallang site was originally chosen because it was an ideal spot; and as the Minister for Communications and Works pointed out, it was in a thickly populated area. When we got down to basic facts, we found that piling there would be considerably more expensive than was originally anticipated. Taking this into consideration we still felt that it would be an ideal spot, but finally we discovered that it was right in the air funnel, that is to say, it would be in the direct line of all planes landing and taking off from Singapore, a line from the new airport to St. John's Island.

Why was that not discovered before?

That is a thing which I cannot answer the Member for Tanglin.

Who can?

When it was discovered that this was right in the air funnel, I placed the question before our Medical Advisory Council to seek their advice whether that would in any way affect the health of the patients in the hospital. The majority opinion of the Medical Advisory Council was that it would, much to my disappointment. Then we sought other sites. I think I also informed the House that I had also in view a site near the Sea View Hotel and that when we went into the question, it was ascertained the land belonged to a building society and that plans for building purposes were completed. Finally, we inspected two sites in the Bedok area and chose the one which is immediately behind the Fisheries Research Station which we now find to be an ideal site. Incidentally, I might mention that the outdoor patients clinic at the old site of the Malayan Airways canteen is now under construction or undergoing additions and alterations. When our new hospital is ready, anybody requiring hospitalisation will be sent there. Question put.

Division, Sir.

Clear the lobbies. The House divided: Ayes, 6; Noes 21; Abstention, 1. Ayes Noes Ede, John. Abdul Hamid Bin Goh Tong Liang. Haji Jumat. Jumabhoy, R. Ahmad Bin Ibrahim. Lim Choon Mong. Braga, A. J. Lim Koon Teck. Butterfield, C. H. Tan, William. Chew Swee Kee. Gob Chew Chua. Noes Goode, W. A. C. Hart, T. M. Jumabhoy, J.M. Lim Cher Kheng. Lim, R. C. H. Lim Yew Hock. Mak Pak Shee. Marshall, D. S. Mohd. Sidik Bin Haji Abdul Hamid. Nair, M. P. D. Seah Peng Chuan. Sutherland, G. A. P. Tan Theng Chiang Thomas, Francis. Wong Foo Nam. Abstention Lee Choon Eng. Absent Lazarous, A. R. Lee Kuan Yew. Lim Ching Siong. Ong Piah Teng. Question on the amendment accordingly negatived. The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck - To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 13 (3) , General Hospital - Ancillary Services, on page 383 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 13 (5) , General Hospital, Garage for Ambulance and Drivers' Rest Room, on page 383 of the Estimates To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 14 (2) , Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital - Flats for twelve Medical Officers, on page 383 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 14 (3) , Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital - Ancillary Services, on page 383 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 14 (4) , Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital - Additions and Alterations to Existing Hospital Buildings, on page 383 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 15 (4) , Tan Tock Seng Hospital - Students Nurses Hostel and Training School, on page 384 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 15 (5) , Tan Tock Seng Hospital - Quarters for forty Sisters, on page 384 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 16 (6) , Woodbridge Hospital and Trafalgar Home, Hospital Assistants' Quarters, on page 385 of the Estimates.

Sir, in view of the short time allocated for this Head and the many amendments that are tabled by me, may I have your guidance as to whether it will be proper for me to withdraw them and just speak on the Head itself?

I cannot really guide the hon. Member until I know what he is going to say. Is he suggesting economies?

Yes.

In that case, perhaps it would be proper for him to withdraw his amendments and just draw the attention of hon. Members to these items and then bring the matters up for discussion in the Estimates Committee.

Yes.

Do I take it then that the hon. Member withdraws all his amendments?

Yes, and I would like to give notice to the Minister concerned that I do not wish to mention about the garage because I understand that it is for 30 cars.

The hon. Member should then wait until the main Question is proposed. Question proposed, "That the sum of $10,546,490 for Head D 49 stand part of the Schedule." 3.17 p.m.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I am only taking up this matter on the question of the cost mainly, in this case, of the accommodation for housemen and sisters. You will notice here that for all the quarters, the estimate for each of which I shall deal with, there is already provided a sum of $1,400,000 for Ancillary Services which means that when we come to calculate the cost of each quarter, we shall have to take out of our consideration the roads, the water supply, the electric supply and the sanitation. The first point that I am dealing with is sub-head 13 (4) at page 383 of the Development Estimates and there is $1,250,000 asked for accommodation for 78 sisters which works out at about $16,000 per flat. That, I submit, Sir, is still a high figure and I think that $12,000 per flat for a sister would be suitable accommodation because I know for a fact that many private architects are building very comfortable flats with two bed-rooms, a sitting-room, and a dining-room complete around $12,000 each. The next sub-head that I would like to speak on is 14 (2) at page 383 of the Development Estimates. There we have $450,000 asked for to provide accommodation for 12 medical officers. This is an increase over last year's estimate of 50 per cent and it works out at $37,000 per flat. Now I know that we have paid sums like this for accommodating previous officers and professors in the University but I think we have come to a time when we must be more realistic and cut down the cost of accommodation for our officers. Every one of us, big or small, is asked to contribute towards income tax and our taxes are rising by leaps and bounds. I am quite sure that when these officers, who will in the future occupy these flats, are asked to give their opinion, they will agree with us in that they are prepared to live in a less luxurious manner. The next sub-head that I wish to touch on is 14 (4) , Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital. There we have "Additions and Alterations to existing Hospital Buildings" and the sum is $2 million. It seems to be a lot of money for alterations alone! Another sub-head that I wish to comment on is 15 (4) on page 384 of the Development Estimates, Students Nurses Hostel and Training School. There, the estimated cost of $1,200,000 asked for last year is now revised at $2 million. Why the increase? Again, I would like to draw the attention of this House to sub-head 15 (5) . Here, the amount asked for is $750,000 for Quarters for 40 Sisters which works out at nearly $20,000 a flat. That, again, I submit, Sir, is a standard of living which we cannot afford today. 3.23 p.m.

Mr Chairman, Sir, on the question of quarters for housemen, it was a statutory provision that all medical, graduates must have a first-year residential housemanship before registration and the working party of the medical building has agreed on the standard scale of accommodation for the medical staff who may be required to live in quarters within the hospital compound. The provisional estimate of the cost per unit of accommodation has been worked out as follows: Houseman, 310 square feet which works out at $13,000 cost per quarter for a normal site, including furniture. I would like to inform hon. Members of the House that all buildings on the Kandang Kerbau site require piling. On the flats for medical officers, the original estimate of $300,000 was for eight medical officers. Now this has been increased to accommodation for twelve medical officers. The amount of $36,000 from that sum will be required for piling and that reduces it to about $34,000 per flat. On the question of additions and alterations to the buildings, sub-head 14 (4) , page 383 of the Development Estimates, it is already evident that the estimate of $2 million for the work needed at the Kandang Kerbau Hospital will be sufficient only to cover the cost of the gynaecological unit. Essential alterations to this teaching hospital will be needed in future years and new provision will have to be made when the time comes. I would like you to appreciate that the Kandang Kerbau Hospital is a teaching hospital and as such has to keep up with certain standards. On sub-head 15 (4), Student Nurses Hostel and Training School, this will be the main centre for the training of assistant nurses and it must be noted that the $2 million is only a provisional estimate. On sub-head 15 (5), Quarters for forty Sisters, it is doubtful whether this project will be proceeded with. It is expected that sufficient accommodation for unmarried sisters may be available at the new general hospital building. I think I have covered the question of costs on sub-head 14 (3), Ancillary Ser- vices. The explanation is given on page 436 of the Estimates which reads: "Provision has been made for roads, water, electricity supplies and sewerage for new buildings." Provision for ancillary services is only made under a separate item in the case of a large project where services are shared between the various buildings included in the project. It is not possible exactly to apportion the cost of joint services between the various buildings being supplied. If I have not covered all of the points raised, I would like my attention drawn at this stage because I propose going on to something else with your permission, Mr Chairman, as I feel that it is my duty to inform hon. Members of the House something about the chronic hospital which is to be built -

Order. I think the Hon. Minister is departing from the present debate. Perhaps he could consider making a ministerial statement at an appropriate time. There has not been a debate on that particular subject; perhaps he will consider that point.

Thank you, Mr Chairman, but the position is that I have to point out to the House that on the question of costing, there might be an amendment to the figures. It is going to be much higher than it was originally. May I have your permission, Sir?

Certainly.

I would like to draw the attention of hon. Members to sub-head 9, page 383, of the Development Estimates. The revised estimated cost is shown at $2.9 million and the previous estimated cost was $1.5 million. I have to explain that the estimate of $1.5 million was made without knowledge of the exact size and on a "diagrammatic line drawing" of the cheapest possible envisaged pavilion-type hospital of 200 beds. Since then, available Crown land at Thomson Road was surveyed and we decided that a pavilion-type hospital meant an extravagant use of land. It was therefore decided to use plans already drawn and available for a multi-storeyed building. The use of existing plans would save 12 to 18 months' delay and enable work to start early in 1957 and when estimating the $2.9 million, it was only to provide a hospital of 180 beds. Now in the process of detailed planning, it was found that it would be cheaper in the long run to build a 396-bed hospital on a single site rather than to build one 180-bed hospital now at a cost of $2.9 million and another at a later date at the same cost. The estimate therefore for a 396-bed hospital using existing plans is $4.65 million. In other words, we can provide 396 beds in one hospital for $1.5 million less than we can build two 180-bed hospitals. Again studying the necessity for relieving the General Hospital of beds blocked by chronic or incurable patients, we find that approximately 300 beds are constantly blocked there so that the figure of 396 beds for the chronic sick is not excessive. The Government now therefore proposes to go forward with the 396-bed project as an economic figure in the long run so that the figure should now read $4,650,000 instead of $2,900,000. Doubling the size of the project is now much less than double the cost. 3.30 p.m.

Mr Chairman, with your permission, I would like to ask the Minister for Health whether he is aware of the great service rendered to the poor, especially in the rural areas, by the travelling dispensary unit? I have looked through the Development Estimates and it is surprising that this unit has not had any chance to expand its activities. I have approached the Ministry of Health and have asked them to increase the visits of the travelling dispensary to the poor living in the congested kampongs and in the rural areas and to send, if possible, a doctor along with this travelling dispensary. I am sure we are aware that the really poor sick patients have not got the bus fare or the means to enable them to go to the hospitals and the only help which they can get is from the travelling dispensary. Therefore I would like the Minister for Health to inform us whether or not it is still his intention to develop such facilities.

Mr Chairman, Sir, for the information of the Member for Changi, there are six travelling dispensaries and three mobile dental clinics with trailers and generators and these visit rural areas regularly with a medical officer in attendance. If the hon. Member can point out any particular rural area which he complains is not being properly attended to, I will be glad to take the matter in hand.

I would like to say a word, Mr Chairman, about the suggestion that we might call on our officers to accept smaller quarters. There is this factor to bear in mind. We have heard many statements in here about the very heavy burden of dependants which Asians have to carry in this country and which expatriates do not have to carry. This was, of course, thought of by the Public Works Department quite a long time ago because it is in fact true that the normal expatriate does send his children back to England. He has young children around and he does not have boys of 15, 16, 17, and 20 years old having to live in the same house with him but they are at home in England attending a school or a university. Here if a doctor has children and they are going to live with him, they will remain in the house with him until they themselves set up families and, no doubt, he will go and live with them when he retires. But there is a genuine aspect, to my mind, that if you leave the quarters as they are, you will, in fact, be providing less accommodation because there will be more people having to live in them, if the Asian custom is followed. That is one point. To give a further deduction would be a double deduction. You see the point and I do not wish to elaborate on it further. It is a simple arithmetical point. I would also point out that the figures for quarters do include furniture and that must not be overlooked when you are taking into account the overall costs. I would just like to refer to some notes I got from Nigeria which is not necessarily a wholly comparable territory where one's general standard is rather low but there, in the new block for sisters, each sister gets a flatlet, that is to say, living space, bed-room, kitchenette and bath-room. In other words, she has a little self-contained flat of her own. That is not yet necessary in Singapore but if we are going to get people into the nursing service and the other services in the Government, then they have got to be given positions which are attractive to them. I will just run through as far as I can see the whole of the departments in my Ministry. There was a motion to cut out the grant for the senior quantity surveyor, a most ill-judged motion. We had to put it in because it was absolutely necessary to put that senior quantity surveyor in and it should be a career which would attract people into the service. You had a vacancy for a year; it was advertised locally and there was no applicant. It was also advertised overseas and there was no applicant. Luckily, we got two young men in the pipe line coming out for training shortly: one will be in the next year, I hope, and we shall not increase our vacancies. But if we are going to get young men or young women to come into the service and to stay in, you have to give them attractive conditions which, in Singapore, is likely to mean giving them quarters because it is very hard to get proper housing in Singapore. I just make these points because I do not think that the Government should be accused of undue lavishness in the treatment of its officers. They do a very good job of work and if you are going to retain them, you must recognise their qualities and their services by giving them proper conditions to live under.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I just want to ask the Minister whether the 60 housemen to be provided for are people who are quite old and have many children? I believe that the housemen are probably people who have just graduated and they might be single or married but, I do not think that they can produce children at the rate as alleged by the Minister. Again on the matter of sisters and matrons, I think they are usually confined to single ones and if they are married, probably the husbands will have to provide the quarters. Facts like these should be presented to the public.

If I can just enlighten the hon. Member, I think he misunderstood me. I am not suggesting that the houseman is going to breed a family in the course of the two years that he has to perform in a hospital. I am saying the general principle is that you have to provide adequate quarters -

Family Planning Association!

The fact that the houseman may be practising or teaching family planning is not really the point. The point is that if you are providing for married couples with children, you must provide them with adequate quarters. For a houseman, I think the figure of 310 square feet quoted earlier today - I cannot recollect for certain - is not an excessive allowance for a qualified professional man living as a bachelor.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I am very glad that the Minister for Communications and Works confirmed that a houseman only gets 310 square feet. That will mean one sitting-room, one bed-room and a lavatory. Now at 310 square feet for a flat of $13,000, the cost for that flat is $40 a square foot which is really a fantastic costing. No doubt, it includes furniture but I do not think that the cost of furniture for a houseman's flat would come to more than $3,000. The cost for a flat in a residential area is $12 a square foot. I think it comes to about that much for a fairly luxurious flat at Orchard Road opposite the Prince's being built on a burial ground and I frankly can not see why we cannot come down to that standard.

He has not done his homework.

Order. I think that is a matter which can be looked into in detail by the Estimates Committee.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $10,546,490 for Head D 49 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 51- The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck - To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1, Combined Immigration Depot and Customs Offices, on page 386 of the Estimates.

Sir, I withdraw this motion and would like to speak on the Head itself. Question proposed, "That the sum of $1,000 for Head D 51 stand part of the Schedule."

Sir, I am seeking information as to the necessity for spending $1,200,000 for the Combined Immigration Depot and Customs Offices. It seems that we are in the habit of running into millions of dollars for our offices and I would like to have an idea of what type of offices these are.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I will send the information asked for by the hon. Member in a letter to him.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $1,000 for Head D 51 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 53- 3.41 p.m.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I move, To reduce by $130,000 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1, Community Centres, on page 387 of the Estimates. Sir, whilst I am not totally against the building of community centres, I find that, invariably, community centres have been built in such a manner that they earn no more than the name "community centres". My idea of a community centre is that it should be readily available to the people and it should serve a great multiplicity of functions to the community living around it. The present day type of community centre, Sir, serves a somewhat unorganised population, and probably only girls' or boys' clubs with perhaps one or two meetings rarely of other organisations far in between. Now let us look at the way in which the community of Singapore carry on with their work. I will just point out one instance. In one locality, invariably, you will find that there are people who are not of the Christian faith but who like to run public wayangs. I find that one section of the community will go around and build a stage, run the wayang for about two days for the public and then pull down the stage and after two days, another party will stage another wayang there. In one particular locality, you might have seven repeat performances in a month and for each performance, it incurs an expenditure of nearly $1,000. So if community centres are going to serve the public, these points must be taken into consideration. Sir, community centres obviously must help the public in all sorts of functions. Probably these centres have not been publicised or no attempt has been made in that direction. Very few people know where community centres are and probably they do not know how to apply for the use of them so that even in the locality where there are community centres, we find that many people still hold functions in their houses which are too small for the occasion. So all in all, I find that the community centres which have been built have not been serving the public as they should. They have only been white elephants, and if they are going to remain as white elephants, we should expend no more money on them. One reason for that is this. When a community centre is to be built, the people around the area are not consulted or if they are consulted, the opinion given must have been the opinion of a few who do not know much about the area. A community centre built right behind a row of shophouses half a mile from a village is no attraction to the people but it should be central to that locality, just like the Victoria Memorial Hall. From my experience of community centres, I think they are a waste of public funds unless steps are taken to rectify all that I have said here. Question proposed. 3.45 p.m.

Mr Chairman, Sir, the Member for Serangoon keeps on attacking community centres to make one feel as if he has a great hatred for community centres or that some community centres must have hurt him quite deeply.

Not at all. Let him prove it.

Sir, the sum of $130,000 asked for in the Estimates is required to complete a community centre which was started this year at Seah Im Road. The amount of $110,000 is required to complete this work and the $20,000 which will be left over out of the $130,000 is meant for another community centre, the site of which has not yet been finalised. The Member for Serangoon said that the community centres are white elephants. I would like to tell him, Sir, that he is not saying the right thing -

I know it myself.

- because as far as we know in the Social Welfare Department, and from reports I have received, community centres are doing very good work and are necessary to build up a community spirit in the areas concerned.

On paper.

He said that the community centres have not served the public well. I would ask the community living near any community centre to come in and work together and make use of the community centre instead of keeping themselves away.

Sir, I believe that if there are facilities offered, people will make use of them. If there are facilities and there is an offer for you to come and make use of them but nobody comes forward to make use of them, I ask the Government where the fault lies?

Question on the amendment put, and negatived. The sum of $722,000 for Head D 53 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 55- The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lim Choon Mong - To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1 (1) , Singapore Airport - Permanent Terminal Building, on page 388 of the Estimates.

Sir, I do not intend to move my amendment. The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck - To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1 (1) , Singapore Airport - Permanent Terminal Building, on page 388 of the Estimates.

Sir, this is a point on which we want further information. That is all.

Shall I propose the Question on the Main Head?

Yes. Question proposed, "That the sum of $3,450,000 for Head D 55 stand part of the Schedule."

Sir, we see here according to the Estimates, the revised cost for the Permanent Terminal Building will be $8 million. We want information, Sir, on what this sum is to be expended, on the type of buildings that are planned and whether it includes a lot of luxurious items like a cinema - I heard something like a cinema but I am not sure. 3.51 p.m.

I do agree, Mr Chairman, Sir, that it is not much use in this Assembly going into too much detail on costs and arguing to and fro the contentions. The best thing is to leave it to the Estimates Committee. If they can show where they can make savings, I shall personally be delighted and I think that we should all agree that where savings can be made, they should be made. I have brought along drawings. I am afraid that they are so stiff that it is no use tabling them. Perhaps Members would like to see them in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association room. The general points that I would like to make about the Terminal Building are - I think I made them already in an earlier part of the debate; if I have not, I intend to, Sir - that we do need to have in Singapore, if we are to maintain our present position as a main link in the international network of travel, a really attractive and satisfactory Terminal Building. We are not in a position where people are compelled to come to us. There are alternative airports to which they can fly if the other ones are more attractive, more efficient and more convenient. We have a very good position for an airport and, other things being equal, we shall probably get the trade but we have competitors in the business and it is up to us to be competitive in every way and one aspect is that if you are going to attract the type of people who travel by air, you have got to give them the sort of surroundings that they are used to. If you put them into a barn and herd them along on to a wooden bench and give them a dusty cup of coffee with coffee stains all around the edge of the cup, they will say, "Singapore is a dirty place and we do not want to come here again." There can be quite considerable side-effects because in the end they will not come here and you will not get investments -

Order. The time has expired.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $3,450,000 for Head D 55 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 56- The sum of $28,000 for Head D 56 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 57- The sum of $731,030 for Head D 57 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 58- The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck - To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1, New P.W.D. Workshops, on page 391 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 2, Transfer of Airport Quarry Plant to Bukit Timah Quarry, on page 391 of the Estimates.

Sir, I wish to withdraw my two amendments. Question proposed, "That the sum of $960,000 for Head D 58 stand part of the Schedule."

Sir, I see under Head D 58 that $1� million is asked for New P.W.D. Workshops. There is also an item for $150,000 required for Transfer of Airport Quarry Plant to Bukit Timah Quarry. The sum of $150,000 seems to be quite a lot of money. I would like to know what is intended to be carried out and what type of workshops are going to be built which require $1� million? 3.56 p.m.

Sir, it is rather a lump sum contract. The position about the workshops is, first of all, the present site is intolerably over-crowded and is bounded by the Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital, the Post Office, Farrer Park and the Bukit Timah Canal expansion. The degree of over-crowding is shocking and we are also continually expanding the service with the expanding use of mechanism, especially heavy earth-moving equipment, and the site on which the present workshop stands is required for the expansion of Kandang Kerbau Hospital. Therefore, it is desirable that the workshop should be moved to a new site and a very suitable and an appropriate site is available at Kallang where part of the old hangar can form the basis of the workshop and where it will be possible to work the Marine sub-branch in with the rest of the senior mechanical engineer's works, so that you can take a launch on to the slipway, put a mobile crane to work and take the engine out for repairs and thus streamline the work a bit. The cost of the move includes the equipment of the new workshops which will include machine tools which are a costly item. I cannot tell you the precise nature of the machine tools but I expect that hon. Members can visualise them for themselves. I think it is worth mentioning that another aspect of the advantage of the move is that it will enable the Stores Branch of the Public Works Department to do a bit of necessary expansion. There again, there is considerable over-crowding on this small site and it is also inconvenient. The quarry plant at Pulau Ubin was established as part of the overall project of building Singapore Airport -

Order. The time has expired.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $960,000 for Head D 58 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 60- The sum of $1,654,970 for Head D 60 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 61- The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck - To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 4, Canteens at Government Offices, on page 396 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 13, Modernisation of Division IV Quarters - First Programme, on page 396 of the Estimates. To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 14, New Government Offices, on page 396 of the Estimates.

Sir, I withdraw these amendments and would like to speak on the main Head. Question proposed, "That the sum of $2,845,310 for Head D 61 stand part of the Schedule." 3.59 p.m.

Sir, at page 396 of the Development Estimates, there is an item of $100,000 for Canteens at Government Offices. I have no objection to a good canteen being provided for Government servants but $100,000, to my mind, does conjure some very luxurious rooms which are air-conditioned and I would like information on that point. The other item is No. 13 for which we are asked to spend $1 million on Modernisation of Division IV Quarters - First Programme. The explanation given on page 440 is not very helpful. It only reads: "Most Division IV quarters constructed pre-war have inadequate latrine, bathing and kitchen facilities. These quarters require Improvement by the construction of kitchens and bathrooms." It does not give the number of quarters to be attended to and I think that we should have some information as to how that money is going to be spent. On the last item, we come to $5 million for the New Government Offices. I think that this side of the House will want to know whether Government intends to spend this $5 million and the style of building that we are going to get; whether we are going to get something horrible like the Post Office building or something really useful for the future. 4.01 p.m.

Sir, I cannot help feeling that the Member for Paya Lebar has forgotten the socialist side of his Party since two of the items which he questioned in a somewhat critical way are to facilitate very much the more humble members of the Government service. As regards the canteens, I can assure him that the $100,000 is not intended to put up some chromium-plated air-conditioned building for a limited number of people. We already have in a number of different Government offices over a dozen canteens which are running; some of them are running very much in spite of being sited in the most unsuitable corners. For example, one is in a basement in Fullerton Building and the conditions there are such that the health authorities are likely to condemn it. We have a number of canteens running and we have at least half a dozen new ones projected. This $100,000 will be spent on a great number of comparatively small items: $1,000 for tiling and introducing hygienic conditions in existing canteens; in another instance, a considerably larger sum of $5,000 or $8,000, in order to construct a canteen in some available space in an existing office. I can assure the hon. Member that these canteens will serve a most useful purpose. They are an amenity to people working in Government offices; they help to reduce the demand for hawkers; they help to keep people off the streets during the crowded lunch-time hours and they enable people to get a decent meal at a cheap price and get the maximum of rest in their lunch hour. As for the next item to which he referred, the Modernisation of Division IV Quarters, I am, of course, a colonial official but, Sir, I have to admit that some of these Division IV quarters which we inherit from the colonial regime are such as we certainly cannot be proud of today, and it is in order to try and bring a large number of those quarters up to a standard more in conformity with present-day conditions, to give them proper latrines and kitchens, that this money is required. It is a large vote and there is a large number of quarters to be modernised, one after another. If the hon. Member really wants to have a full list of all the various quarters which are going to be tackled and how much is going to be spent on each, I dare say that it could be got out but it would take quite a considerable time and I really doubt whether it would profit him or this House to have it. If he wishes it, he can put a Question down and I will, of course, do my best to get the figures for him. As regards the last item in which he raised a question on the New Government Offices, he will see, from the Explanatory Notes at the back of the Estimates, that the present intention is to use Crown land which is available on Shenton Way and to put up a building in conformity with the type of building which is required on Shenton Way. This sum voted is by no means based on firm plans but, at the moment, we do know that we require a great deal of new office accommodation and attention has already been drawn in this House to the state of the office accommodation of, I think, the Registry of Marriages. There has been a great deal of pressure in this House that the Assembly should have more elbow-room in this present building and there are a number of offices which must be notorious to Members of this House for being quite inadequate to modern conditions. We have had a survey to see how much extra space is required under present conditions and the total demand is a very large figure; it is greater than the existing office accommodation inside Fullerton Building but I have no doubt myself that the time has come when this Government will have to spend a larger sum on new office accommodation and I certainly recommend that it should be spent on one good building which will serve for many years in future, rather than that we should continue to mend and patch and put up some shoddy and inferior building. This estimate is only a round figure at this stage but the intention is to put up a fine office block on Shenton Way and that is how the estimate is arrived at.

Mr Chairman, am I to understand from the Hon. the Chief Secretary that if this building were not put up on Shenton Way to conform with the standard required in that area, the building could then be brought in more cheaply?

No, Sir. I would not like the hon. Member to go away with any such understanding. What I said was that we had land available on Shenton Way, that we need a building of the size of the buildings which are appropriate for Shenton Way and that we propose therefore to build the building in accordance with the standard set in Shenton Way. It is obviously necessary that a big office building should be centred in the heart of the City where it can do its business and while, of course, piling costs may be high in Shenton Way, if we try to purchase an area of land anywhere in the City to use an alternative site, I should think that it would come to at least as much. But the point is that we have vacant land available to us on Shenton Way and I think that we should encourage development on Shenton Way. I do not think that expenditure on a Shenton Way type of building will be out of proportion to the need we have for a decent block of Government offices. 4.07 p.m.

Sir, it must be nearing the closing time for the Hon. the Chief Secretary suggested that I have forgotten the socialistic tendencies of my Party without having regard to the comfort of our civil servants. I made it very clear at the beginning that I do not grudge the spending of money for their comfort but all I wanted to know was what this money was for? I can see that the reply to my query on the modernisation of Division IV quarters was most unsatisfactory because what I really wanted to know was the number of quarters to be serviced.

Question put, and agreed to. The sum of $2,845,310 for Head D 61 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Head D 62- The sum of $2,308,787 for Head D 62 ordered to stand part of the Schedule. Clauses 1 to 3 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Sir, I move, "That the Bill be reported to the Assembly."

Question put, and agreed to. Bill reported, without Amendment.

Mr Financial Secretary will you now move the Third Reading?

Sir, I move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

I second the motion, Sir.

Question put, and agreed to. Bill accordingly read the Third time.

Mr Speaker adjourned the Assembly without Question put pursuant to the Standing Order. Adjourned accordingly at eleven minutes past Four o'clock p.m.