Hansard, 1971-03-22

asked the Minister for Finance whether it was not possible to reconcile the conflicting objectives of the Singapore and Malaysian Governments on the running of MSA, chiefly in relation to the expansion of Malaysian domestic air services, in order to avoid a dissolution of their partnership. Next, what is the current state of the negotiations and what are the objectives of the proposed Singapore national airline.

Mr Speaker, Sir, it has become common knowledge that the policies and objectives of the Governments of Singapore and Malaysia towards Malaysia-Singapore Airlines have become divergent. Differences have arisen from time to time in recent years. On the 2nd September, 1970, the Malaysian Ministry of Foreign Affairs delivered a note to the Singapore High Commission in Kuala Lumpur requesting the Singapore Government to designate a committee of officials to discuss with their committee the creation of a Malaysian Domestic Airline. On the 13th November, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs delivered a note in reply to the Malaysian High Commission in Singapore nominating this committee. The differences of objectives between the two Governments have become irreconcilable. A parting of the ways was unavoidable. Continuation of the partnership would only have led to constant friction and unnecessary conflict. The Singapore Government's interest is centred upon a fast-expanding commercially viable operation with flights on international routes to Europe and the United States. The Malaysian Government has different priorities. A major point of disagreement was the proposal to expand MSA domestic air services regardless of the loss forecast by management. Now that the decision has been taken to dissolve the co-ownership and joint control of MSA, it is in the best interests of both Governments that the proposed restructuring of the company should be proceeded with as expeditiously as possible. There are good reasons for proceeding with deliberate speed. First, in the airline business nothing stands still. The transitional period before restructuring is completed is not conducive to the taking of important decisions on the expansion of services and the acquisition of new aircraft. Secondly, staff of the company, contractors, agents, suppliers and clients would find a long transitional period unsettling not knowing where exactly they stand. Thirdly, Government officials as well as the staff of MSA who are directing, planning and undertaking the arrangements for the restructuring of the company cannot have their attention distracted from their normal duties for a prolonged period of uncertainty and restlessness pending the final hiving off into two separate airlines. Negotiations between officials of the two Governments have resulted in a measure of agreement. There are a few points on which further talks are to take place. It has been agreed that, first, the restructuring will be completed by the end of 1972 or any earlier date that may be agreed upon by the two Governments; secondly, that the Fokker aircraft will be transferred to the proposed Malaysian national airline and the Boeing 707 aircraft to the Singapore national airline; thirdly, that projects approved will be implemented and that projects required for the orderly growth and expansion of the company will not be held up on account of the proposed restructuring of the airline. The Governments have also appointed, through MSA, a reputable firm of accountants to value the assets, both tangible and intangible, of the company; the report of the accountants is to be submitted by 30th June this year. The Singapore Government has proposed that, to facilitate the establishment of the Malaysian national airline, the internal operations of MSA should over a period of time be separated, and placed under the control of a "Malaysian Division" of the company. In the near future, such a Division would become the nucleus of the Malaysian national airline and would be handed over as such. It is the intention of the Singapore Government that this transfer should take place as soon as possible. It is the Singapore Government's intention that there will be completely separate financial accountability in respect of domestic services under the Malaysian Government, and international services under the Singapore Government, by 1st. January, 1972, or that the national airlines of the two countries should be on their feet by the 1st January, 1972. I have dealt with the distribution of the Fokker and the Boeing 707 aircraft, but not with the Boeing 737 aircraft. These aircraft are used extensively on services between Singapore and Malaysia as well as on international routes stretching to Bangkok, Hong Kong, Djakarta, Bali and Sumatra. Clearly, a sharing of these aircraft will have to be worked out on the basis of the requirements and interests of each Government. This basis will be decided at separate negotiations on an air services agreement which are scheduled to be completely by the end of this month. It is appropriate for me to outline the policy of the proposed Singapore national airline. We have conveyed to the Malaysian Government the fact that the Singapore Government will inherit the corporate entity of MSA which is; a Singapore registered company, as was its precursor, Malayan Airways. There should not be any hiatus in the rapid growth of the airline. Since the bulk of MSA's international services are operated on Singapore traffic rights and as a considerable proportion of traffic originating in the Singapore-Malaysia region is derived from Singapore, the proposed restructuring of the company will not impair its growth prospects. MSA is now preparing a five-year development plan which, subject to scrutiny and approval by the Government, will be implemented vigorously. I understand that consideration of the purchase of wide-bodied aircraft is one of the highlights of the plan. Employment opportunities in a wholly- owned Singapore company should grow at a rapid rate. Management will be given a free and unfettered hand to carry out its tasks under the effective control and supervision of the Board of Directors. With good management and run on the basis of efficiency and profitability, our national airline has considerable growth expectations. It should be at least as profitable as and probably larger than Hong Kong's airline. Unlike Cathay Pacific which is not allowed to cut into BOAC's profitable international routes, we shall circle the globe.

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [3rd Allotted Day]. Resumption of debate on Question (19th March, 1971), "That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2109." - [Mr Ho Kah Leong].

2.41 p.m. Head 0801 (contd.) -

Head 0801 - amendment (18) . The Question is, "That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2109." The Minister for Education had the Floor when the Committee rose last Friday night,Mr Lim.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I think I have clarified all the doubts that were in the minds of Members at the last sitting with regard to this subhead. Unless they want further clarification, I propose that we go on to the next amendment.

(In Mandarin): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2118*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr N. Govindasamy.) Sir, I notice that there is an increase of $1.1 million for the 1971-72 estimate over the 1970-71 estimate in regard to the item of "Substitute Relief Teachers". I presume that this additional sum of money is for the Ministry of Education to employ more relief teachers in the coming year. At present, the ratio between the number of relief teachers and the total number of permanent teachers reaches an unhealthy proportion. Any further increase of the present number of relief teachers is going to further aggravate the situation. I would like to ask the Minister whether he should not consider the immediate reintroduction of part-time teacher training at the Teachers' Training College at this stage. I am quite confident that the response to part-time teacher training will be good. Part-time teacher training will alleviate the present shortage of teachers. The advantage of part-time teacher training over full-time training for student teachers is that while undergoing training they will be able to earn a salary which will help them economically, whereas in the case of full-time students, not only are they not paid a salary but they also have to pay tuition fees instead. We must appreciate the position of many school leavers who do not come from well-to-do homes and who would like to earn a living after the completion of their studies. For such persons, while they may not take on full-time teacher training because they will become economically inactive when undergoing training, they may find it attractive enough to do part-time training and, at the same time, earn a salary as trainee teachers in schools. Sir, a partial solution to the problem of teacher shortage is the reintroduction of part-time teacher training. 2.45 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, for the last three years I have been harping on the matter of substitute relief teachers without appearing to make much headway with the Ministry of Education. If I have harped on the subject over and over again, it is because, having been long with education and having children in school who are sometimes taught by these substitute relief teachers, I sincerely believe that it is about time that the Ministry of Education gradually stopped its existing practice of using unqualified youngsters as relief teachers and made attempts to replace them with a corps of qualified teachers. It appears that the number of unqualified relief teachers increases year after year with no sign of any attempts being made by the Ministry of Education to rectify this, to say the least, unhappy education system. The provision for substitute relief teachers for 1969-70 was $1.2 million for 15 months. The provision for 1970-71 was $1.3 million. This year, as the Member for Moulmein has pointed out, the provision is $2.4 million. Can the Minister tell the House what attempts the Ministry has made to rectify this unhappy practice? Sir, amongst the ranks of the relief teachers there are many who would want to make teaching their career, but they are not given the opportunity or the training to become qualified teachers. Why cannot the best of these relief teachers who wish to make teaching their career be given part-time teacher training, as has been advocated by the Member for Moulmein, so that they will take up teaching as a career and not as a stepping stone to other jobs? What we must not forget is that the backbone of our teaching profession today comprises teachers who have had part-time teacher training. There are many who become daily-rated teachers today while waiting for some other employment. In any case, this business of unqualified relief teachers teaching in our schools is a bad reflection on our education policy and at the same time makes a mockery of teaching as a profession. Sir, to hear the Minister advance the practice of leave-taking among teachers as a reason for the need of relief teachers, it would appear that teachers have never taken leave previously. This is, of course, not true. Teachers have gone on leave before. It is not a recent phenomenon, as was pointed out earlier. But what really happened in those good old days, not more than four or five years ago, was that there were one or two extra qualified teachers in every school to take over classes from the regular teachers who went on leave. But now with the quota of teachers rigidly imposed on every school, there is the problem of relief teachers who are unqualified to take over classes from the qualified teachers. As a result, we have been relying on unqualified persons to act as relief teachers. Sir, if there is a shortage of qualified teachers - and I believe there is - as a result of some planning defect in the Ministry of Education, some serious attempts must be made quickly and effectively to obviate the need of using unqualified people as relief teachers in schools. One way is to increase the output of trained teachers. The reason for regular class teachers to be trained is equally applicable to temporary relief teachers. The minds of the future citizens of Singapore are too precious an asset to be imperilled by improper teaching. Sir, the Minister has mentioned that the response to advertisements in respect of recruitment of teachers was poor. Did the Ministry attempt to find out the reason for the lack of response from our school-leavers waiting for jobs? I can advance my own reason, but I will be accused of harping on salaries and working conditions all the time. Let the Ministry of Education advance their reasons for the lack of response from qualified persons for not wanting to become teachers. Perhaps one of the reasons advanced by the Member for Moulmein may stand up. Is it because teachers in training have to pay for their training and, as a result, they are not responding? Sir, you will notice that this year the vote asked for in the General Education Department alone is almost twice as much as that for last year. Of course, the allocation will have to be more if we include the vocational institutes and technical schools in this particular vote. If the Ministry of Education does not make any serious attempts to remedy the situation, I am sure that next year this vote of $2,400,000 that we are asked to approve this year will have to be doubled. When this sorry state of affairs is going to end will be a big question mark. Sir, not very long ago we were talking in terms of coming to the end of the phase of quantitative education and launching on to qualitative education. May I humbly suggest that we have not even arrived at this phase at all. A total of 99 per cent of our schools are still functioning as two-session schools. The number of classes in schools has not been reduced; the number of pupils per class has not been reduced; and the shortage of teachers has increased year after year. When can we have qualitative education at this rate? Sir, all persons who are interested in education and who have children in school would want their children and future citizens to be taught by persons who are teachers by training and by choice, and not by persons who act as relief teachers for $7 or $8 a day, or whatever the daily wage that the Ministry of Education pays them. So long as this phenomenon of substitute relief teachers exists in our schools, we will have to remind the Minister that it has got to stop. Can the Minister for Education inform the House of any plans that the Ministry may have to overcome this educational problem that we face?

Mr Speaker, Sir, fortunately enough I have looked into the establishment of my Ministry, otherwise after listening to the two Members I would have thought that my Ministry had been staffed completely by relief teachers! Actually, only five per cent of them are relief teachers, and the other 95 per cent consist of a hard core of fully competent teachers who are there by their own choice. I would like very much indeed to see all one hundred per cent of the establishment filled by people who become teachers "by their own choice", to quote the words of the Member for Telok Blangah. It is because we do not have enough people who want to join the teaching service by their own choice that we are at present in this plight, and have to resort to engaging five per cent of the staff as relief teachers. The key words here are "by their own choice". Let me take the point raised by the Member for Moulmein. I am very glad indeed that, whether consciously or unconsciously, he has advocated the point which I have made about not proceeding with the setting up of the Institute of Education. It is precisely because of the fear that I had of having insufficient people enrolling to pay for an education in order to be able to teach four years later that I have had second thoughts, and he has stated it correctly in this House that there are lots of people who would prefer to learn while they work. The question of whether we should institute full-time training for these relief teachers is under consideration by my Ministry, because what started on an ad hoc basis looks as if it is going to become a permanent feature in the Ministry of Education, largely because - and I repeat - there are insufficient people who would opt to teach. Therefore, we are seriously considering the proposition whether we should reintroduce part-time training. But here again, may I point out to the House the problem of sufficient staff to teach these relief teachers who will be going in for part-time training. This is a question of staff and facilities. In the same ways we would very much prefer, if we could, to have one-session schools in Singapore right through. We are prevented from doing that largely because of the insufficient facilities for one-session schools. It means that we have almost physically to double the school buildings that we have now. For the information of Members, when I attended the Commonwealth Education Ministers' Conference recently in Australia, I was surprised to find that a large number of countries were very much interested in our two-session schools because, to their minds, this feature represents the full utilisation of the resources at one's disposal. So while we here may think that it is an unsatisfactory way to cram all our students in the schools, others think it is one way of fully utilising one's resources. It could be that the double-session school is a way out for most countries. Maybe later on we will reach a state of affluence and, with reclamation making good progress and providing us with sufficient land, we may be able to build single-session schools for all children going to school. The Members for Telok Blangah and Moulmein are wondering why there is an increase in the vote for relief teachers. As I have said, what has started on an ad hoc basis is probably becoming permanent, but I can tell them that my Ministry now is doing its very best to relieve the situation. All I can promise is that things may get a little bit worse before they get better, largely because of the difficulties involved. It takes about three years at least to train a teacher. If we start making teaching as a career more attractive or enlarging the intake of trainees in the Teacher's Training College, you will not see the result until three years after. 3.00 p.m. As for the measures taken by the Ministry to solve the problem of shortage of staff, I have figures here to show that the intake of the T.T.C. has been greatly increased. We expect 660 trainees to qualify this year and 950 next year. Thus the intake is increasing. Therefore, you can see that relief is on the way, and I hope the Member for Telok Blangah need not stand up again and say that he has been at this problem for the last five years. As regards the increase in the workload, I believe this is due to the fact that we are also engaging graduates as relief teachers. Unfortunately, there is a certain quota to be observed with regard to the intake of graduates and T.T.C.-trained teachers. This may be due to financial considerations but it is largely because the professionals have advised that we should maintain a certain proportion. In their view, it would not be realistic at this stage of our development to have the full complement staffed with graduate teachers. If Members want to know all the facts, they can refer to the professionals in the Ministry of Education, who are their colleagues or ex-colleagues. Anyway, I completely disagree with the Member for Telok Blangah when he said that we have not succeeded in expanding quantitatively.

Point of clarification, Sir.

Mr Lim, are you prepared to give way? Mr Lim Kim San resumed his seat.

Sir, what I said was that since we have finished with the quantitative phase, we should now talk in terms of the qualitative phase of education. My question was: when can we achieve qualitative education? Not quantitative education.

Not overnight.

We are in the process of trying to achieve that, but there are many matters to look into now. I think the Member is not unaware that there has been a curriculum revision in the Ministry. There is a Department of Research looking into ways and means of improving methods of teaching. We have launched the Educational T.V. service, and we are using all forms of aids to reach the young minds. And improving the quality of education is not an overnight process. It takes a long time and careful research. I would say that our circumstances here are different from those in most other countries, because when we set out to achieve multilingualism, or at least bilingualism in the schools for the majority of our students, it was not just a question of learning two languages but three. We must remember that our students have also to learn the native tongue used in their homes.

Mr Lim, your ten minutes are up.

Sir, I think I have dealt with almost all the points raised, but if Members have any more queries, they can raise them under some other amendment so that I will try to answer them.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to inform the Minister that consciously or unconsciously I am not advocating the abolition of the Institute of Education, because I do not see the point there. The Institute of Education does not necessarily have to confine itself to full-time teacher training, as after all there are other activities to think of. And even if there is a reason to hold back full-time teacher training and part-time teacher training, it does not mean that we must also hold back the establishment of the Institute, because, as I have said, the Institute of Education could incorporate so many other forms of activity. Anyway, the Minister has said that next year over 600 trainees will pass out from the T.T.C. and the following year another 900 trainees will qualify. The question I want to ask is this: will all these teachers be given jobs? It must be remembered that much money has been spent on the training of these teachers. It has happened in the past that teacher-trainees who underwent training and obtained the Certificate of Education were not guaranteed jobs, and I have pointed this out in this House previously. This is one of the disincentives to this full-time teacher training, and therefore there is no response because, apart from the fact that they do not earn any salary while undergoing training, there is no guarantee that they are going to get jobs at the end of the course. So you can see the kind of situation that the teacher training scheme is in when there is this disincentive in the system. Therefore, I just want to ask the Minister whether he can give the assurance that all these teachers will be given jobs when they pass out from the T.T.C.

Sir, I am not aware of any teaching institution in the world guaranteeing jobs for its graduates. And I am afraid I cannot start a precedent. If the Minister for Finance, my colleague here, would like to guarantee them jobs, then that is his business.

Sir, I think the Minister did not answer my question, which is this: will the Ministry look into the possibility of again instituting part-time teacher training in order to overcome the present shortage of teachers?

I think I did answer that question, and I said that the matter is under consideration. But while it is being considered, I would like to ask Members to appreciate the problem of getting sufficient teaching staff to teach these trainees. I have mentioned this in the course of my reply earlier.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3001. Sir, at this stage of our educational development, when the emphasis is on qualitative rather than quantitative education, I am surprised to note that the ensuing year's allocation for the item "Educational Exhibitions, Career Conventions and Teachers' Seminar" has suffered a cut of $3,500 as compared with the allocation for the previous year. The amount allocated for the previous year was $10,500, but this has been reduced to $7,000 for 1971-72. Activities under this subhead are to me of tremendous educational value, and I should imagine that the vote should be increased rather than decreased, if we are really serious about pursuing qualitative education. With reference to the "Teachers' Seminar", I would like to draw the attention of Members to the recent Teachers' Seminar from 27th February to 1st March, 1971, organised by the Singapore Teachers' Union. Some 250 teachers participated, together with representatives from the Ministry of Education and the Teachers' Training College. The seminar papers, as well as the discussions, were guided by a sense of proportional responsibility and realism on the part of the participants. It is important that the seminar papers, as well as the findings of the seminar on various professional problems of the teachers, should be discussed among teachers in the schools. The Singapore Teachers' Union, therefore, intends to organise group meetings of teachers on Saturdays to enable as many teachers as possible from the various schools to benefit from the ideas contained in the seminar papers as well as the conclusions of the seminar. I would like to ask the Education Minister if he thinks that it will be a good idea for the Singapore Teachers' Union, the Education Ministry Research Unit, the Inspectorate of the Education Ministry and the Teachers' Training College jointly to organise meetings of teachers to enable them to discuss their professional problems with a view to establishing a larger sense of involvement and participation in the educational development of Singapore. I am also sure the Minister will agree with me that if Inspectors of Schools are asked to hold seminars or group meetings of teachers to discuss the educational and professional problems of teachers, this would be a much more fruitful way for them to spend their time than going around snooping and investigating complaints from anonymous letters.

Mr Speaker, Sir, if I may briefly make a few points. I would like to support what the Member for Moulmein has said, and perhaps articulate specifically the point he has raised - that there should be more of these seminars. In my own experience, I find them to be very useful, but perhaps more use could be found at district level. In other words, the organisation of these educational seminars, which at present is confined only to the central level, should be brought lower down to the district level, so that a number of schools could come together and join in these discussions, and maintain a continuing discussion of their role in relation to society. The other point I would like to make is this. Perhaps the Ministry of Education could give teachers a feedback as to what it thinks of the proposals that have been formulated at these seminars. This will encourage teachers to express their views continually on the sort of action which the Minister himself has sought to encourage.

Sir, the Member for Moulmein is out of date. Inspectors do not snoop around inquiring into fictitious complaints. I have already made it clear to them that unfortunately their office carries some sort of an odium about it; and that their job is not so much inspection of schools as advising and helping teachers and principals of schools to achieve the quality of education that we want and to carry out the policy that we have set out to achieve. As regards the Teachers' Seminar, which was organised recently by the Singapore Teachers' Union, of course. I was very much encouraged by the response given to it, and by the discussions that took place. I very much welcome the suggestion of the Member for Moulmein to get the various sectors of the Ministry of Education to enter into a dialogue on the role of education and on education itself in Singapore. What has made it necessary for me to stand up here to reply is because of the confusion that has arisen with regard to the reduction of the vote. Actually there is no reduction in the allocation for "Education Exhibitions, Career Conventions and Teachers' Seminar". What happened was that out of the provision of $10,500 for the financial year which is about to end, there was included a sum of $5,000 for guidance and placement. But this sum has now been transferred to the vote for the Technical Education Department. Therefore, though the sum asked for is $7,000, there is, in fact, an increase of $1,500 in the provision. We feel that this vote should be enough for the use of "Educational Exhibitions, Career Conventions and Teachers' Seminar". But should there be a shortage, I can assure Members that during the course of the financial year if seminars are held and proved to be of practical value - I have no doubt at all that they will be of value if enough thought and interest are shown by those who participate -we will either ask for a supplementary vote or vire the amount from savings, if any, from other heads of expenditure. 3.15 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $191,098,630 for Head 0801 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. Head 0901 -

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Conceicao.) Mr Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of Culture is a very important Ministry. It has the responsibility of looking after broadcasting in our country. More important still, it is also charged with the mission of taking the lead in developing our national arts and culture. It is also responsible for creating a national cultural image. It must inculcate in our people a sense of national consciousness and patriotism. It must enrich the life of our people with healthy cultural activities. It also has the duty of imposing censorship on publications and books in order to remove any material that may poison the minds of our people and to ensure that they obtain a healthy mental pabulum. I have received complaints that in recent months chain picture books have flooded our markets. The contents of these chain picture books are full of fantasy. They contain mythical and pornographic material which adversely affects the children of this country. These children read these undesirable picture books and, as a result, their studies are adversely affected. Mr Speaker, Sir, this is a matter of grave concern to us. It is my view that the civil servants in the Ministry of Culture have failed in their duty. I hope that the Minister will take the necessary action to ban all these fantastic, mythical and pornographic picture books, so that the minds of our young children are not poisoned because they are the future leaders of our country. Next I wish to talk about television. At the moment television has many viewers. Therefore, whether the programmes are good or bad, they have a great influence on the people. There is no doubt that in the past one year we have seen many good programmes on T.V. They include forums and debates on social and economic problems. These are all very educational. However, there are a lot of shortcomings in the light entertainment programme. For example, the Chinese variety show produced by R.T.S. has no educational value. The programme consists of nothing more than showing men and women in love and stories of jilted love. The singers always sing, "I don't want to go home tonight." All the items in the programme are in very low taste. They give our young people all kinds of funny ideas. I cannot see any educational value in such a programme. On the question of films shown on T.V., I regret to say that most of the actors and actresses in these films are already dead and gone. In fact, the pictures are too old for screening. It is my hope that such nauseating programmes will not be shown again on T.V. We should not show pictures which are more than ten years old. I hope the Minister will see to it that some improvement is made in the T.V. programmes, especially those relating to culture. For example, concerts or variety shows can be produced by inviting students from the various language streams, the universities and institutions of higher learning. I am sure that some students are able to produce good and healthy programmes. They already have their choirs. They can sing, blow the harmonica, put up plays, give piano recitals, and even recite poetry. These programmes are very popular with our people. I am sure the public will be very happy and welcome them. At the same time, R.T.S. will be able to nurture a new generation of artistes. It can kill two birds with one stone. Mr Speaker, Sir, our able Minister for Culture has always emphasised the importance of creating healthy culture and art. He has also stressed that good cultural traditions should be encouraged. I endorse his views without any reservation. But the important thing is this. His Ministry does not appear to be following this policy. It does not provide good educational programmes for the benefit of our people in consonance with the policy pronounced by the Minister. Lastly, I would like to discuss the question of how to promote healthy cultural activities. I have mentioned at the beginning of my speech that the Ministry of Culture has the responsibility of developing our national arts and culture. Unfortunately, in the past one year the Ministry of Culture has done very little in this direction. At the very most, it held a talentime contest on T.V. and some art exhibitions. I would, therefore, like to propose to the Ministry of Culture that in order to develop our national culture and inculcate a sense of national consciousness in our people, it should take the responsibility of promoting healthy cultural activities. It should lay down a policy on culture and art so as to encourage their development and bring about a flourishing national culture and art in Singapore. I would like to take this opportunity to propose to the Minister that there should be a cultural festival on a large scale this year. All the cultural and art workers in Singapore can then participate in it. In this way, they can not only show their culture but also learn from the others. At the same time, we can also give proper encouragement to our people in their efforts to bring about a healthy cultural life.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to refer to a socio-cultural condition which, I am sure, the Minister will agree prevails in Singapore. May I refer to the problem arising out of this condition as the problem of two cultures? This is no hackneyed phrase, I hope, because this problem of two cultures has nothing to do with the celebrated problem once elaborated by C. P. Snow. It is our own problem and relates to a non-convergence in certain important attitudes and characteristic modes of thinking between those educated in the English medium and those educated in the Chinese medium. Recently there was a certain amount of animated, perhaps even agitated, discussion in English newspapers on the necessity for film classification. While this was going on in the English papers, the Chinese newspapers did not seem to evince the slightest interest. Any comparison between the respective themes in the "Letters to the Editor" in the Chinese press and the English press will indicate that the preoccupations of those people who read the English papers differ, and perhaps radically, from the preoccupations of those who read the Chinese newspapers. The Minister has himself remarked on this phenomenon. I think one has to see this difference initially and in its correct perspective, in view also of the various remarks made by the Member for Sembawang who has spoken of the propagation of healthy cultural traditions and a national culture. I speak in the same way as the Member for Sembawang, but perhaps what I think of as propagation of healthy cultural traditions and national culture may be different from what the Member for Sembawang thinks in terms of a healthy cultural tradition. I think this point is worth making and it is worth while getting us to realise it. Now, having made the point, I must say that our people are basically tolerant. I think there is a basic subscription to the importance of respect for one another's ways of living and behaviour. And certainly the Government must take credit for a policy that has resulted in this sort of respect and tolerance. Where the Ministry of Culture is concerned, its attitude in respect of a multi-cultural development up till now has been apparently to contrive the maximum exposure of the cultural aspects of one group for the benefit of other groups. Mr Speaker, Sir, I think exposure alone is not enough. For example, it is not enough to put on a programme like "Tapestry" - and I am quoting this only as an example - incorporating the dances and music of the various cultural streams for the delectation of all. This is what I mean by exposure. 3.30 p.m. When we attend a school concert or a cultural presentation organised by some community or even a communal organisation, there is this exposure. And certainly all this exposure is good. But as I have said, it is not enough. What the next step should be, I think, is to provide a deeper experience of one another's cultural ways. One approach is to provide opportunities whereby one may acquire a more analytical awareness of the characteristics of the other person's culture. Where culture in the sense of dance, song, art, music is concerned, we could have programmes, which teach an understanding of these things, both in a language which is a fairly common medium like English and in a medium different from that which is a characteristic of the culture to be presented. In other words, if you put on a Chinese presentation, let us find out all about the finer aspects of this presentation in English, Malay or Tamil. Let there be explanations. Let there be an interesting attempt to teach the finer and the deeper aspects of this culture. I remember once seeing on television what appeared to be an interesting and detailed account of the basic characteristics of Indian dance. But the programme was in Tamil. I would have liked to appreciate the programme myself. But I could not because the medium of explanation was Tamil. That particular programme should have been in Chinese or English as well. There does not appear to be enough of education of one sector of the people to the cultural forms of other sectors through our mass media. That is with respect to culture in the art, music, or dance aspect of the term. With regard to culture in the sense of outlook and ways of thinking and behaving, it may be a good idea for newspapers to select items that seem to reflect characteristically the attitudes of people who read newspapers in a certain medium and reproduce these characteristic, idiosyncratic notions in a paper using another medium. For example, the English newspapers could scrutinise those characteristic reflections in the Chinese papers and reproduce these reflections in the English newspapers and vice versa. And this goes for the Malay and Tamil press too. Indeed our T.V. and radio could do this sort of thing with or without comment. In other words, to say in one language what characteristic things others are saying in other languages. It has been said that perhaps with the production of at least a bilingual population, we would have overcome such problems of cross-cultural understanding. Already our schemes to educate children bilingually are difficult to implement.

Mr Conceicao, you have one minute more.

But even if they are easy to implement we will get a new population of bilingual people. But what about the parents who are not receiving the effects of a bilingual education? Perhaps the Minister could think of ways and means to carry this idea across.

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I actually meant to move the next amendment* but I would like to speak now. * The amendment reads as follows: (2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1003. Sir, I would like to confine my discussion to the development of dancing and music and, in particular, to the National Theatre Trust. The National Theatre Trust, under the Ministry of Culture, is responsible for certain cultural activities and cultural work. And they have organised some orchestras and dance troupes. In other words, the National Theatre is more or less an institute of performing arts. As we all know, to train an orchestra, a choir or a dance troupe to a certain standard is a very difficult task indeed. It is much more difficult than training a violinist or a pianist. Sir, the National Theatre has a modern stage of considerable size and the National Theatre Trust has many able conductors and dance instructors. These are the pre-requisites necessary for the training of members of orchestras and dance troupes. Endowed with such facilities, it is a pity that the National Theatre Trust is experiencing financial difficulties. As a result, all the facilities that are at its disposal cannot be fully exploited. If we view this problem from this perspective, we would feel a great deal of pity and sympathy for the National Theatre Trust which must not be allowed to die because of financial difficulties. Sir, I remember some time early this year I read in the newspapers that the Australian Government had extended to us an invitation to send a mission to attend the Adelaide Cultural Festival. At that time, a spokesman from the Ministry of Culture said that it was a great honour for Singapore that such an invitation had been extended to us. He also said that the Ministry of Culture would do all it could to accomplish the mission. This is, of course, a matter which we should be very happy about. Admittedly, Sir, the best item that we could contribute to such an international cultural festival would be to send a mission comprising Chinese orchestra, the Philharmonic Orchestra, local dance troupes and choirs. Such a mission would be able to reflect the characteristics of our multi-culture. If this invitation had been handled by the National Theatre, I am sure the result would be very good. But unfortunately the National Theatre is unable to do anything because of financial difficulties. Even the present Philharmonic Orchestra and dance troupes have already ceased their activities at the moment. The remaining organisations that are still active are the Chinese orchestra and the choir. And even they are in a very precarious position. They are not able to do what they can for the country. If the Ministry of Culture cannot give adequate financial assistance or encouragement to the orchestras and dance troupes, how can we expect them to contribute to the cultural life of our country? As a matter of fact, in my view, the various orchestras, dance troupes and choirs in the National Theatre should be regarded as a cultural army representative of Singapore. We should therefore, in all seriousness, give them proper training, encouragement and financial assistance. Whether it is a philharmonic orchestra or a Chinese orchestra or any dance troupe, they should be given proper training opportunities and facilities. The next point which I wish to deal with is in connection with the treatment of the various orchestras and dance troupes in the National Theatre. There has been some injustice or unequal treatment in certain ways. I wonder whether the Minister for Culture is aware of certain discrimination existing in the National Theatre. As far as I know, members of the Chinese orchestra receive different treatment from those in the Philharmonic Orchestra. I am given to understand that the reason is that members of the Philharmonic Orchestra have passed certain examinations and obtained certain qualifications, and therefore they are given better treatment and emoluments. In the case of the members of the Chinese orchestra, there have been no examinations, no official qualifications, and so their salaries should be lower. Sir, in my view, this is unreasonable. As we know, the Chinese orchestra has its origins in China. But in China there is no proper institute for the training of musicians. This is done by those who have a liking for Chinese music under the guidance of experienced players. After that, the trainees themselves will have to practise hard before they can be anywhere near success. Therefore, it takes a very long time and plenty of practice and energy to train a Chinese musician. There is a Chinese saying, in regard to the learning of Chinese musical instruments, that it takes 1,000 days to learn the pi pa, which is a Chinese flute; 100 days to learn the ku chern, a Chinese harp; and more than half a lifetime to learn a three-stringed instrument. 3.45 p.m. Mr Ho Kah Leong rose -

Mr Ho, are you going to speak on this amendment which refers to subhead 1001?

(In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to speak on amendment (3) * which stands in my name, for what I am going to say is related to what has been said by the Members who have spoken just now. * The amendment reads as follows: That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1211.

Are you going to repeat what they have said?

(In Mandarin): No, Sir, I support their views, but I have my own points to make. At the first sign of daybreak we can hear music broadcast over the radio. Of course, music is meant to soothe our mind and body, and to provide some entertainment for us. More important, music is supposed to lift up our spirit and to stimulate a greater sense of one's upward orientation. I regret to note that what we are subject to nowadays consists merely of an unhealthy and decadent type of music. Although we are awake, after listening to this kind of music we become drowsy again. How can we be roused to work in this mood? This is what we are subject to at home. If we go out into the street we can hear music of the unhealthy and sickly type, music which consists of nothing but shrieking, screaming and shouting. Many of us share this feeling. When foreign singers come to Singapore and sing pop songs and dance in the latest style, our audiences blindly follow them and popularise their songs and dances. However, if we put on a serious concert or show with classical music or art songs, it is very difficult to sell even a small number of tickets and those who buy them merely do so to oblige the organisers. For the last few years the youth of our country have been exposed to influences from foreign countries. Many of them have taken up the songs of the Beatles and their dances and the Western soul-dance. The men keep long hair, wear a long beard, and sport bell-bottoms. The girls wear jeans. It is very difficult to distinguish between the males and the females. Most of them are like hippies. This is a most undesirable tendency. It corrupts the body, mind and spirit of our youth. The main reasons for this tendency are, firstly, external influence; secondly, imitation from films; thirdly, what they learn over the Radio and on T.V.; and, fourthly, what they learn from books and magazines. If we look at our newspapers, what catches our eyes consists of publicity stunts and propaganda for singers, film stars, fashions, hairstyles, entertainment and such like. Newspapers are full of sensational stories like murders of passion and revenge. All these are meant to arouse the interest of the readers and to increase the circulation of the newspapers. But have we ever paid attention to the ill effects or undesirable influence of such stories of sex and violence? The newspapers even show bloody scenes of murders described in the fullest detail. Have they ever thought what sort of influence or effect this is going to have on our youth? The small bookstalls in the backlanes and street corners stock unhealthy stories of passion or violence and low-class comics. This is all bad for our children. Mr Speaker, Sir, films are a popular medium of entertainment. If we want to know how many healthy or useful films we had last year, the result will be most disappointing. All the films shown last year were about soldiers, cowboys, sex and violence. I suggest that the Ministry of Culture carry out a comprehensive review of this so-called "culture" of our country. We should not allow films to be shown if they portray violence and mysticism, particularly because they will adversely affect the minds and bodies of our youths. I understand some of these foreign singers can earn as much as $2,500 by performing just one show. This has been given wide publicity in our newspapers. What sort of impression is this going to create? If we look at our own situation and we try to publish a healthy magazine or book, it is very difficult to sell even 2,000 copies. Is it because our people do not possess the ability to read that they do not like to read, or is it because the interest of our readers has been channelled into other directions? If the answer is the former, it is sad. If the answer is the latter, I think the Ministry of Culture should quickly do something about it. If we can ban advertisements on cigarettes, why cannot we ban those unhealthy publications and advertisements which will lower the morals and adversely affect the minds of our youths? We are now in the initial stage of nation building and we should therefore cultivate the qualities of our youths. Is this not a step in the right direction? If necessary, I think we should impose a "cultural quota system" and we should leave out those publications which are not necessary or of pressing need to us. We should encourage local writers and artistes to be more productive. At the same time, we can organise something like a cultural centre and employ people who specialise or are experienced in the arts and culture and those who are interested in the various fields of our arts to work for the cause. It will be a good idea to draw up a programme of the work to be done as an immediate requirement or put up one or two concerts or shows a month. I think all these will be of help and benefit to us.

(In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to criticise T.V. Singapore's programmes which I consider are not suited to our country. I refer to the Pesta Pop programmes in which are featured crazy dances and Red Indian dances. Watching these dances we feel ourselves to be in a jungle with Red Indians who are isolated from the world of progress. Is the Minister satisfied with such dances? Does he consider that they reflect cultural advancement for our country? Do such dance programmes deserve to be telecast on our T.V. Singapore? If we look around us, we will find there is an abundance of national dances which we can tap from our multi-racial people and which should be appropriately telecast on T.V. Singapore. But why are these national dances completely ignored? Can the Minister for Culture clarify?

Mr Speaker, Sir, the problem of this cultural gap is a very complex one, and it is even reflected in this House. On the one hand, we have Members asking for a more liberal attitude towards censorship, and, on the other, we have Members asking for a stricter censorship on films, to cut out films showing girls' bare bosoms and to stop using pop songs in the variety shows on T.V. They have suggested that, instead, we should only have piano recitals and cultural dances. So this is a very complex problem. I think we will be deceiving ourselves if we say that a simple and easy solution for it can be found overnight. This has come to our notice only recently after more and more of us have become bilingual and begun to move from one group to another. In the past we always thought that differences in tastes, in outlook and in the way we look at life existed only among the different racial groups, and we felt that if we could introduce a common language so that we could communicate with one another, the problem would be half solved. However, this is not to be the case. We have now found that even among people of the same race but coming from different educational streams, there exist differences in tastes, in the way they look at life and in what they understand to be their responsibilities towards society. I suggest that this has something to do with the way one is brought up, the kind of friends one has and the kind of books and newspapers one reads. All these factors tend to pull our people apart and confine them in different compartments. A vicious circle is therefore formed. If a person is educated in, say, the English stream, he reads merely the English newspapers which emphasise subjects of interest only to the English-educated group. After some time he is conditioned to certain fixed views which only he and the English-educated group hold. He begins to adopt the outlook which is typical of that group. So he closes his mind to things which are happening in the other groups. The same thing happens in the Chinese newspapers which, amongst other things, constantly remind their readers of their glorious past -four thousand years of history and so on, and of the importance of not giving in to the influence of western decadent culture. This brings about a polarisation of views between the two groups. 4.00 p.m. One interesting thing for us to do here is to watch how different newspapers play up different things. Take, for instance, the story of the shooting of monkeys in the Botanic Gardens. The English newspapers splashed the story on the front page, with follow-up stories of demonstration, by some students, presumably from the English schools, against the shooting of these monkeys. But the Chinese newspapers laughed their heads off. They thought the whole thing was very funny, that it was ridiculous. They laughed at the stupidity of the English press for playing up such a story. Their immediate reaction was: Chih pao fan mei yiu shih ching tsuo. To express it in English is a bit difficult, but it means something like this: they are too well fed, so much so that they have nothing to help them digest their food; they therefore had to play up this story as a pastime. The Chinese press asked, "Why waste time and valuable space on this story of monkeys? Why do they not think of the thousands of human beings being shot in Vietnam by weapons far more deadly than those used against the monkeys in Singapore?" Another example is the way the different language newspapers report the debates in this House. A few days ago the English newspapers played up only those speeches of Members who spoke in English. Similarly, the Chinese papers only picked up those speeches delivered in Chinese. Presumably some Members must have cyclostyled their speeches and distributed them to the Chinese newspapers, for they printed them in full, every word of it without any editing. This is the way things go. But I think we will be deceiving ourselves if we say that this problem can be solved very quickly. We have so far only diagnosed the symptoms, but I think we are far from finding a cure. Presenting cultural shows in the different language media, with interpretation and explanation, might be a help, but I doubt very much they will, because cultural dances and shows are only staged very occasionally. We need to look into other fields, like the newspapers, to see whether they should also play a role in bridging the gap, so to speak, between the different cultural groups. The Member for Paya Lebar spoke about the National Theatre. The National Theatre Trust has done a very commendable job in the promotion of cultural activities. This is even more evident when we consider the fact that since the time the Trust was formed, not a single cent has been voted in Parliament to subsidise it. Nevertheless, it has been able to raise from scratch a Chinese orchestra, a choir and a symphony orchestra, and together they have staged many fine performances. In 1970 they conducted 14 indoor concerts.

You have one minute left, Mr Jek.

Sir, in view of the fact that many Members will be withdrawing their amendments, I wonder if we can lift Standing Orders to enable me to give them a more detailed reply on this subject.

Let us see what the response is.

Mr Speaker, Sir, may I interrupt briefly? I would like to make one point clear - when I suggested that there could be more explanation, I do not mean that that would be the sole way of overcoming the lack of understanding between one culture and another. I only meant that to be one of the possible ways of making this approach.

Mr Jek, you may proceed. There are ten minutes more to go.

Thank you, Sir. So in spite of the fact that the National Theatre Trust have not received a single cent from this House in the way of direct subsidy, they have been able to form very good cultural groups in the Theatre. This has been made possible by the hard work and dedication of the Trust members and the artistes concerned, and also by the generous donations from the public. But I think this state of affairs cannot last very long. The members of the Trust are tired of going out now and then to ask for donations from the public for the National Theatre. In fact, the time has come for us to ask this House for money to subsidise the cultural activities of the National Theatre Trust. We must realise that we cannot expect to promote the fine arts for nothing. If we think that these cultural shows are good and can contribute to our gracious living, we must be prepared to pay for them. We want to pay our artistes as much as we can, and as much as they deserve. But as I have said, due to financial limitations, we are not able to do so. It is not possible to pay each member of the Chinese orchestra more than $40 per month, but members of the Singapore National Symphony Orchestra are paid higher rates of honorarium because the rates are laid down by the Musicians' Union of Singapore, of which many of them are members. The honoraria paid to members of the Chinese orchestra are lower than the rates laid down by the Musicians' Union of Singapore, and also lower than the fees paid by the Broadcasting Department. Therefore, I am giving very serious consideration to the financial position of the National Theatre Trust as a whole with a view to ---

Point of order, Sir, I cannot hear the Minister.

Some Backbenchers are having a private conversation among themselves, and I think that is interfering with the Minister's speech. Will you carry on, Mr Jek?

As to the healthy cultural activities referred to by the Member for Sembawang, although I do not fully agree with what he has said, we will look into it. Of course, we need to have some entertaining programmes on television as well as over the radio. We cannot only have what he calls educational programmes. If he wants educational programmes, or if he is interested in secondary education, then he should switch to E.T.V. But there are also good programmes on T.V., such as documentaries, music, and other cultural programmes. If we were to accept the Member's suggestion that we should wipe out all the pop songs and the more popular programmes on T.V., we would end up with nothing at all. I am afraid we cannot do that. As to his other point about holding a cultural festival in Singapore, I think this is worth looking into, and I am definitely going to give it very serious thought. But if I am right in interpreting what he has said just now about cultural activities, that they refer to free cultural shows in the open air, like the Aneka Ragam we had in the old days, then I would say that those days are gone, because since then we have become more sophisticated. Instead of performing their shows in the open air, the artistes are now invited to perform in our T.V. studios, so that their shows can be enjoyed not only by a few thousand people, as in the case of open air shows, but by hundreds of thousands of T.V. viewers. In this respect, I think T.V. has supported cultural activities in Singapore.

(In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to ask the Minister whether he considers Red Indian dances suitable for Singapore's culture.

Sir, I have no idea that our artistes are capable of performing Red Indian dances in our T.V. studios. I think the programme producers are trying to experiment with new trends in the various folk dances. It is admitted that the Pesta Pop programme is produced in the national language, and therefore we should have more Malay folk dances in the programme. But it does not mean that we have to confine this programme to Malay folk dances only. It is meant to cater for the tastes of everyone, although more Malay viewers enjoy this programme. We also hope that viewers from the other language streams can also enjoy it. Therefore, I think we should allow the programme producers to experiment with whatever new forms of dances they wish to.

(In Malay): Sir, I am not only concerned with Pesta Pop which is produced in Malay, but I am also concerned with such programmes in the other languages. I hope such dances are not telecast on T.V. Singapore. What is the opinion of the Minister with regard to such crazy dances being given a place in such programmes in all the languages? 4.15 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not remember having seen any Red Indian dances in the programme Pesta Pop. It may well be that the wearing of costumes resembling those worn by the Red Indians has given him that impression. As a matter of fact, we do not know whether or not it is really a Red Indian dance. There is no authority in Singapore on Red Indian dances or Red Indian costumes. They may look like Red Indian dances or costumes, but they may not be so.

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Minister is rather excited and, as a result, he has not answered my question. I therefore wish to raise again the question about the chain picture books. What is the Government's attitude towards them? They have an adverse influence on our children. Can the Minister tell us the official attitude towards these books?

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, we will study the question of the chain picture comic books. However, on the question of books imported from abroad, they are censored. Of course, this does not necessarily mean that every book must go through censorship. Perhaps some hooks may have escaped the net or there may be some books sent by post. We cannot carry out censorship on books sent by parcel post too strictly. In our system of censorship, other than in the case of undesirable publications, we have tried to adopt a liberal policy so that the people of Singapore can read various kinds of books, particularly those in good taste. Of course, we will pay attention to censorship. We have set certain standards in regard to books, particularly those relating to chain picture comic books which depict violence and sex. We have laid down certain criteria by which we do not allow such books to be imported into Singapore. However, Singapore is a centre of communications in this region and, as such, many people can send such books into or through Singapore by various means. Therefore, there are loopholes which we cannot plug for the time being. So far, these are the principles I have enumerated, but I should say that in general we should hold liberal views on censorship so as to enable an exchange of minds.

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I believe the Minister is quite sincere in dealing with this matter. He is giving his attention and consideration to the views which have been expressed by Members of Parliament. He has given detailed answers to their questions. He thinks that the whole thing is rather complex and he is not able at the moment to think of a perfect solution. Since he is going to consider this matter in detail, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement - Mr Tay Boon Too: (2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1003. Mr Ho Kah Leong: (3) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1211.

The Member for Paya Lebar is not moving amendment (2) . Mr Ho Kah Leong, amendment (3) .

I am not moving, Sir.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1301*. (*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy) Sir, under this subhead I wish to speak on the standard of Tamil programmes and Tamil news bulletins over Radio Singapore. The general standard of Tamil programmes has been deteriorating from year to year. We have some Tamil television programmes which are not in good taste. It can be said, of course, that this is a matter of opinion. However, the general opinion is that the programmes are not in good taste at all. Some announcers who read the news bulletins over the radio and on television pronounce their words wrongly, thereby conveying the wrong meaning. Their pronunciation of the Tamil words is very poor. An hon. Member: How poor?

One Backbencher is asking me how poor it is. I will try to explain it. If you pronounce panam with the proper intonation, it means money. If you pronounce panam in another way, it means coconut. If you pronounce vanam in Tamil with the proper intonation, it means the sky. If you pronounce vanam differently, it means a fire-cracker. A little bit of difference in the pronunciation makes a lot of difference in the meaning. And when you take two words together and pronounce them together, they convey one meaning. If you pronounce them separately, they mean a different thing.

Mr Speaker, Sir, since the Member mentioned air hostesses who announced in Tamil which he could not understand, can he give us some examples?

I did not say that I could not understand them. The sound is defective, whether the announcements were made in the Tamil or English language. Later when I raised this question in the House, I was told that the defect in the Civil Aviation Department's announcements lay in the sound system. Moreover, the announcers read the announcement with an English accent. I was told that this occurred not only in the Tamil language announcements but also in the Chinese, English and Malay announcements. There was this defect in the airport because there was something wrong in the sound system. I was told about this by some Members and also by other people. Let me come to Broadcasting. Some of the announcers may have the necessary qualifications in the English language but their spoken Tamil is very poor. In view of the examples I have given just now, the announcers should be tested in spoken Tamil before they are appointed. I do realise that it is very hard to get properly qualified persons to fill these posts as those qualified in the Tamil language are very few. However, will the Ministry take steps to improve the standard of the Tamil language spoken over Radio and Television Singapore by employing competent people as announcers? Alternatively, the Ministry can employ part-time announcers who are capable of doing the work. There is another matter I wish to raise. There is only one Tamil film screened on Television Singapore a week. It is shown very late in the evening and it finishes almost towards midnight. The children who watch this programme have to go to school the next morning. So they either see this film and miss school the next morning, or deprive themselves of seeing this film if they wish to go to school the next morning. I wish to point out that at one time these films were screened quite early in the evening. Can the department screen this film earlier, as was done before?

Mr Speaker, Sir, regarding the announcements in the Tamil language, my colleague has already explained the situation. The Minister for Communications is not here now. He must, however, understand the difficulty of pronouncing Tamil words correctly. If he has learnt the language, he will know the difficulty, especially the pronunciation. Even those who announce in the English medium swallow their words. Some of the female announcers also swallow their words. My colleague has also raised the question of the late Tamil film show. I think the films are shown on Friday, and, as a result, complaints have been made because the Tamil people want to go to the temple on that day. If the film is shown earlier, the people will not go to the temple. The temple people have therefore complained that the film should be shown later in the evening. That may be the reason why the Minister has decided to show the film later, because the people can then go to the temple early in the evening and come back later and see the film. I think that is the reason why the Tamil film is shown late and my colleague here will probably understand that. I come now to another matter. What the Member for Potong Pasir has said about the Tamil programmes is correct. They are not up to standard. There are many local people with talent who are able to give artistic performances to suit the taste of every community. If we can give these talented artistes intensive training, the quality of the programmes over the radio and on television will be greatly improved. Some of the announcers in the Tamil language are not fluent because of the poor standard of local Tamil education. Therefore, I suggest that they should be given proper training in the Tamil language before they are appointed. With regard to the Tamil television programmes, we have seen that the scope is limited. Most of the programmes are repeated over and over again. This applies also to the Tamil films shown on television. I suggest that they can be improved greatly so that the Tamil community will enjoy viewing them. I also notice that the T.V. cameramen are using a lot of blank films to shoot scenes in the course of their work. It does not matter if the films serve a useful purpose, but it is noticed that the films are not fully telecast in the T.V. programmes. In view of this, I feel there is a wastage of films which involves Government in unnecessary expenditure. I would, therefore, suggest that unnecessary shooting of scenes should not be allowed. Recently I came across an article on the front page of the Eastern Sun regarding complaints by T.V. cameramen about their working conditions. It was reported that the cameramen were certainly going to stage a walk-out. Can the Minister explain how such a situation has arisen and what steps the Government is taking on this matter? 4.30 p.m. The other point is that, of late there has been a lot of talk about price increases of consumer products made by shopkeepers, hawkers, fishmongers, etc. I wonder whether the Minister will consider advertising the official prices of essential products daily in every medium of communication, such as on T.V., over the radio and in the newspapers, etc. For I feel that it would be more convenient for the general public to know the official prices.

Mr Speaker, Sir, as regards the problem of Tamil pronunciation, I am afraid I cannot participate in that kind of debate because I am no authority on the matter. But the complaint is taken note of and we will get our Tamil announcers to improve in their pronunciation. This is a problem not only with Tamil but also with the Chinese language and other dialects such as Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien and so on, because we are so far away from the original country where our ancestors came from. They brought with them their languages. But after so many years of use and misuse, I am afraid there must be some distortion in the languages. This is unavoidable. But we will look into this matter. As regards Tamil films in T.V. programmes which we telecast every Thursday and Friday at about 10 o'clock at night, they are mainly meant for adults and not for tiny tots. If they are telecast at a late hour, I presume they are feature films for adults. It should not affect the children because there are other more suitable programmes which they can watch in the earlier part of the evening. The Member for Anson has asked for clarification on why there was a report in the newspapers about T.V. cameramen who had complained about their conditions of employment. The main reason is that they are made to work harder. Recently very strict rulings were applied to the use of freelance cameramen. As a result, the pressure is on the cameramen who are permanently engaged by the Broadcasting Department. Furthermore, there were two or three cameramen whose contracts had not been renewed due to certain reasons. This made matters worse. And so there was this complaint in the newspapers. I would say that it is human nature that if you make them work too hard, they complain. That is quite true. On the use of blank films, I do not understand what the Member for Anson meant. I presume that when the cameramen are sent out to shoot scenes, they have to take a lot of them. But then it is up to the editors to select the most appropriate films to be used on T.V. Most probably they may select only 40 per cent or even less of the total film shot.

Sir, it is not true that there are other feature films shown on T.V. for the benefit of the Tamil children. Only one film is shown a week for all the Tamil-speaking people, whether they are adults or children. The other point is about pronunciation of Tamil words which could convey the wrong meaning. I have just given examples of this, and the Minister should take steps to remedy this. Otherwise it will defeat the purpose of broadcasting news bulletins in the Tamil language.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we will look into the matter and try to get the Tamil announcers to improve in their pronunciation.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1351. There are two points which I would like to bring up against this subhead. One relates to the programme "What Others Say". Basically, I think the concept behind "What Others Say" is sound. What I am complaining about is that we have to listen to news that has already appeared in the English and the Chinese press a few days after they have been current, with the result that this news becomes stale. Perhaps some added interest could be injected into the programme. The views from newspapers in Manila, Hong Kong, Bangkok, Indonesia and maybe even further afield could be reflected in the programme. In this way, we could have a broader perspective really of what others say. The next point I would like to talk about is what sort of training might be given to our producers in order to improve the quality of local productions. Perhaps there could be some schemes whereby our people could be sent abroad. Or we could even bring in experts in order to devise and implement schemes of training.

Mr Speaker, Sir, as regards "What Others Say", I understand that there has been an improvement in the programme. If you watch this programme, you will see that it has been vastly changed; one of the changes is the presentation of this programme. There are now two readers instead of one - a male and a female -in order to make it more interesting. The graphics are also better presented. It is not correct to say that the programme is confined to quoting local newspapers. Frequently, quotations are included from English publications like The Times, the Guardian, the Economist; American publications like the U.S. News and World Report and The Times of New York; Australian publications such as the Bulletin; the Hong Kong-based Far Eastern Economic Review and the English translation of the French paper, Le Monde. We have also quoted from the Bangkok Post and the Manila Times on matters of interest for our viewers or listeners. But the problem is that these newspapers do not always carry articles which are of relevance to us. If there is anything in the newspapers which is of interest to us, we will certainly use it. As regards the technique of the producers and the announcers, I agree with the Member for Katong that there is room for improvement. This matter will be looked into. We also have regular courses for producers and announcers to attend, and regular training sessions in all aspects of programme production in radio and T.V, with the assistance of foreign experts.

Mr Speaker, Sir, perhaps the Minister and I just differ on what should be the frequency with which we should resort to quotations from newspapers further afield. However, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Conceicao ---

I am not moving, Sir.

Mr P. Govindaswamy, amendment (7) .

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1631. Sir, in the estimates for the Printing Department, I notice there is an increase in the posts of senior officials. But I do not see any increase in the posts of junior officers. I do not know what is the reason. Perhaps the Minister can explain.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the senior posts referred to are the Cost Accountant or Financial Manager, the Assistant Cost Accountant, the Production Planning Manager, the Works Manager, the Estimator and the Purchasing Officer. The first four are Division I posts and the last two are Division II posts. However, the Production Planning Manager and the Works Manager are posts which are regraded from the Deputy Government Printer and the Superintendent posts respectively. In terms of net increase, there are only four new appointments. These, together with the regraded posts mentioned above, are meant to serve as a nucleus of executive staff to undertake new functions in the cost-conscious set-up. It will be noted that the new senior appointments are not the result of any increase in the work-load but a need to undertake jobs competitively and economically viable. As to why there is no increase in the junior appointments, the reason is that there are at present insufficient job commitments to warrant an increase in their number.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by the whole sum in respect of subhead 2169. Sir, I just want to know how the amount given in the Estimates for 1971-72 is to be used for acquiring T.V. and radio programmes, and what is the proportion to be spent on each of the four language programmes. I also wish to know which are the countries from which we have been purchasing these programmes. Sir, we have been trying very hard to drive home the importance of regional co-operation and better understanding between our neighbouring countries and of not creating an introvert society. I wonder whether the Ministry of Culture has taken this as one of the guidelines in acquiring or purchasing T.V. and radio programmes so that our T.V. viewers could be well educated and informed in this direction. 4.45 p.m. I notice that there are many good, educational, informative and entertaining T.V. programmes produced in countries other than the West. We are not only interested in what others say, but we are also interested in what others perform and produce. I wonder whether the Ministry of Culture will include some of these films so that the horizon of our T.V. viewers could be constructively widened.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we accept the argument that we should have more T.V. films from the countries in this region. It is important that we should know more about our neighbours, learn more about their ways of life, understand their customs and even their love stories. However, most countries in this region, for that matter the whole of Asia, do not have an economy which can support a very sophisticated film industry. We need a lot of films to fill the long telecasting hours we have on T.V. We have altogether 106� hours per week of telecasting time to fill. When we look at the map of this region or the whole of Asia, and ask the question, which are the countries which can provide us with a regular supply of films in the language understood by the majority of the people here, we find that the answer is in the negative. Japan no doubt has a film industry but we cannot use films which are in Japanese dialogue. Dubbing them into one of our languages is out of the question. The equipment, the time and the technicians required to do the work would make the cost too prohibitive for us. Besides, there are political implications to consider. Hong Kong produces a lot of Cantonese and Mandarin films, but they are mainly feature films, love stories, sword fighting and so on. They are produced by a few big film companies which are very much profit-minded and they would not normally allow their films to be used by the T.V. stations unless the earning power of the films is exhausted. In fact, there is an understanding among them that only films of more than ten years old would be released to T.V. stations. So this is far from satisfactory. Besides, we cannot get films of other types from Hong Kong, such as documentaries, variety shows and so on. The same applies to countries like Thailand, the Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia and others, because these countries do not have a film industry. So whether we like it or not, we have to depend on western countries such as the United States, Britain, Germany and Australia which have better developed resources to supply the whole range of T.V. programming on a world syndicated basis. Films from these countries are normally in English. Therefore, the language problem is not so great when we use these films. That is the reason why a great percentage of telecasting time is devoted to western films. In fact, about 52 per cent of the telecasting time is given to English films and programmes like that. It is not that we want to, but because we just cannot get enough films in the other languages. But to help our audience understand some of the films, sub-titles are used. Even with the English films that we are getting, our choice is very narrow. We can only pick and choose from a list of films which the film distributors have decided to release for circulation in this region. In normal practice, a distributor only brings in a film for circulation in this region when he is sure that several stations in this region want to rent that film. In other words, we have to follow the crowd, and it is difficult to impose our independent taste in the matter of film selection. For example, recently we wanted to acquire some films from Britain on opera, ballet dancing, choir singing, music and so on. We thought this would help our people to appreciate some good aspects of western culture, but we were forewarned that if the Singapore station is the only station in this region that wants this kind of film, it would have to bear the cost of the film print and the cost of freight, including the insurance charges, to bring the film all the way here from Britain and to send it back also. This, plus the rental of the films, makes the cost of acquiring such films prohibitively high. If we have to do the same to every film that we show and pay the high cost, I think the money provided for in this subhead would not last for more than six months, let alone for the whole of the financial year. So that is the position we are faced with.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not quite agree with the Minister when he says that dubbing the Japanese film in one of our official languages is impossible. I do not understand what he means by "out of the question", because I have seen some T.V. films dubbed in one of our languages. One is "Run for your life" in Cantonese and the other is "Samurai" in the national language. Can the Minister clarify what he means by "out of the question"?

Dubbing is out of the question simply because of the high cost. The films that we are showing, already dubbed in the language which our people understand, are not dubbed in Singapore but are dubbed either in Hong Kong or Japan. In these countries they have very sophisticated film industries, so they can afford to have very expensive dubbing studios. If we were to set up a studio merely for dubbing, the cost would be very prohibitive.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3207. Sir, I merely wish to know if the Minister can let us have such details as to make it clearer for us to understand what this "Adult Education T.V. Production and Training Centre Project" is about for which we are allocating the sum of $10.

Sir, this is a token sum for a plan which we have in mind to be introduced later this year, but we are not quite sure of the exact amount we will require for this project. Therefore, we have just simply put in a token sum for the time being, but when the details of the financial arrangement have been obtained, the amount can be properly specified in the subsequent supplementary estimates for the budget.

Mr Speaker, Sir, can the Minister give us some description of what this Adult Education T.V. Production and Training Centre Project is about?

Mr Speaker, Sir, this is a very complicated plan, but if the Member wants it, I can, of course, give him a very brief idea of what this is about. This is a project supported by both the Government and the Frederich Ebert-Stiftung of West Germany. The agreement was signed between the Government and the Foundation in 1970 to establish an international centre for the production of adult education programmes and the training of T.V. producers and technicians in this field. The project will be known as CEPTA - Centre for Production and Training for Adult Education Television. CEPTA will be a joint venture with Singapore contributing to the capital cost of the building to house studios and offices, and the Frederich Ebert-Stiftung providing capital equipment. Most of the staff for CEPTA will be employed by Government, while the Frederich Ebert-Stiftung will provide five officials and experts. There will be a sharing of annually recurrent expenditure for production costs. Most of the countries in South-east Asia have indicated to the Frederich Ebert-Stiftung that they are interested in participating in this project. It is the intention that an association of participating members will be formed to formulate members' programmes and training requirements. It is expected that the United Nations agencies will also co-operate in some of the undertakings of CEPTA. This is as far as I can say, and I hope the Member gets a clearer picture.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I thank the Minister. I am sure that in due course further details will be available. I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I propose to take the suspension now. Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

I suspend the sitting now and shall take the Chair again at 5.30 p.m. Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.00 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.30 p.m.

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

Head 0901 (cont.) - The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Ho See Beng ---

Amendment (10) , Mr Ho See Beng.

I am not moving, Sir. The sum of $19,234,590 for Head 0901 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. Head 1001 -

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001. Sir, the Sports Division comes under the Ministry of Social Affairs. The main responsibility of this Division is to promote and develop sports. Recently this Division has done a great deal in this direction. We can see that sports activities in the republic have been very active and are developing at a fast pace. The Sports Division has also done its share in the promotion of regional sports and athletics. For instance, we have already sent quite a number of sports delegations to take part in various regional sports meets, such as the SEAP Games and the Asian Games. At this moment another regional sports meet is taking place here in Singapore, namely, the First Commonwealth Table Tennis Tournament. All these can help to promote the development of sports in our country, and will make our people healthier and more rugged than before. Besides making our people more healthy and rugged, these sports and athletic activities can also play a role in raising our level of sportsmanship. We should develop the skills of our sportsmen in the various fields of athletics in order to raise our standards so as to enable us to win honour for our country in international competitions. In this respect, I would like to ask the Minister some questions. (1) Has the Sports Division any plans to train our national sports representatives? I ask this because our standards in basketball, football, soccer, and badminton have gone down. Very often our teams have brought back a big duck's egg from international competitions. So we should do our best to remedy this situation, so that in the shortest possible time we may bring our standards up to the level required for international competitions. (2) We are now building the National Sports Stadium, better known as the National Sports Complex. I would like to know what is the progress up to date, and when will construction work be completed. And when completed, what kind of sports facilities will be provided by this complex. Will we have the honour of hosting any regional competitions or international tournaments in sports or athletics? Moreover, are there any opportunities for sports bodies to make a comparative study so as to improve our own standards and, at the same time, bring about a richer recreational life for our people?

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, I must thank the Member for Sembawang for raising his questions and for saying so many words of encouragement. In recent years our Ministry, particularly the Sports Division, has actually done a great deal for our sports and athletic activities. The Member wants to know what plans the Sports Division has to train our sports representatives. I would like to say that we all know that sports and athletic activities in Singapore are mainly carried out by the individual amateur sports bodies, and they select their own representatives. We, as a Government department, are only responsible for administrative matters. As regards training, it is undertaken by the various amateur sports bodies. The Member for Sembawang may recall that we have recently established the National Sports Promotion Board, which is a statutory body. It is charged with the promotion and development of sports and athletic activities, and at the same time to provide facilities for the various amateur sports bodies. Now that the Board is functioning, I am sure it has a lot of plans to promote and to develop sports and athletic activities in Singapore. The National Sports Promotion Board has, among its members, the Minister for Social Affairs as Chairman. Since he is in the chair, I am sure the Board will have enough plans and facilities to promote sports and athletic activities. As to when the National Sports Complex will be ready, I can say that the building progress is now half-way through. It is expected to complete the Sports Stadium by the middle of 1972. As to the question whether regional or international tournaments or competitions will be held in our Sports Stadium, I think this can best be answered by the National Sports Promotion Board, because it is up to the Board to decide what kind of regional or international sports or athletic tournaments or competitions will be held. So I think this question will have to depend on the decision of the Board before any answer can be given.

(In Mandarin): Sir, in view of the detailed answer given by the Parliamentary Secretary, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101. Sir, it appears to me that the Central Complaints Bureau has outlived its usefulness. I say this because there seems to be an obvious preference on the part of the general public to bring their complaints to Members of Parliament or air them through the press. Many people seem to be running their own independent complaints bureaux. Even Radio and T.V. Singapore has a Chinese programme called Tah Chung Ter Hua. So with all this competing demand for attention, I think it is a waste of money to continue to maintain the Central Complaints Bureau. We might as well close it down and divert the staff to, say, the Factory Inspectorate, a move which I am sure will please my union colleagues here very much.

Sir, I think it is still necessary to have the Central Complaints Bureau. It operates as a central agency for members of the public to make complaints so that any discourtesy, delay of service, or petty bureaucracy in the Government service can be eradicated or kept under control. These facilities should be made accessible to any member of the public, in addition to any protests or complaints made to Members of Parliament. The Central Complaints Bureau is not competing with Members, but is just an additional means of helping the public. Sir, in 1970 alone the Bureau attended to 794 cases as compared with 654 in 1969. The staff of the Bureau rendered services to 28,103 members of the public in 1970, when they wanted to know about the locations and functions of the various departments in the vicinity of Empress Place and elsewhere. 5.45 p.m. As an example of the investigations and action taken by the Central Complaints Bureau, out of 794 complaints received in 1970, only 19 cases could be attributed to rudeness or discourtesy. As a result of this, the following action was taken: dismissal of officers, one case; disciplinary action taken, five cases; retirement due to disciplinary action, two cases; resignation before investigation - the officers were a bit afraid - two cases; warning by the department, eight cases; insufficient evidence, 27 cases. There were 65 cases of complaints which were not substantiated. With due respect to Members, this Bureau is still necessary and it has not outlived its usefulness.

I would like to thank the Minister for his explanation but, at the same time, I wish to suggest that perhaps a little time and effort should be spent on public relations. Very few people seem to know about the Bureau. I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1171. Sir, under this subhead, I wish to say something about the Legal Aid Bureau. The Bureau looks after poor people who need legal aid. It tries to solve their difficulties so that law and justice can be put at their service. It seeks to provide effective service to the masses and in a way it is a kind of welfare institution. However, I have received several complaints recently that when people go to the Legal Aid Bureau for assistance, their cases are usually delayed for three or four months and sometimes even up to six months. If that is true, then I feel that it is very unreasonable. There should not be any delay because this would inconvenience the people seeking its services. Another complaint is about the staff in the Bureau. Their attitude, when dealing with members of the public, seems to be arrogant and indifferent. They seem to be half-hearted when people go to them to seek legal assistance. It is natural that people only turn up at the Bureau because they wish to seek legal assistance in order to get justice done to them or to get help to solve their problems. If the staff in the Bureau are arrogant, the members of the public will be afraid of them, and they will not dare to turn up again for assistance. There is another matter about which I have received complaints from members of the public. The Bureau is rather slow in dealing with the cases. Very often the public have to wait in the Bureau for two or three hours at a stretch. The efficiency of the Bureau is actually in question. I wish to take this opportunity to request the Minister to look into these three complaints and see whether they are true. If they are true, I hope he will take immediate measures to remedy the shortcomings in the Legal Aid Bureau so that it will be able to serve the poor people better.

Mr Speaker. Sir, the Member has raised three points. First, on the question of delay, let me inform the House that since its inception in 1955, the Legal Aid Bureau has dealt with about 31,000 cases. There are about 3,000 files in circulation at the moment which are being attended to by five legal officers. Thousands of files which have since been classified as closed were settled within six months and some of them between six months and two years. The period of settlement in each case depends on the type of the problem and its complexity. If proceedings are instituted, it is out of the hands of the Bureau and there may be delay in the fixing of the date of hearing by the courts. This is one of the reasons for the delay. So far we have not received many complaints about this. There may have been a few complaints in delay but this is easily explained and they are due to a variety of reasons. First, the applicant's inability to supply the Bureau with the necessary information. Second, delay on the part of the opposing party in replying to our letters in spite of reminders. In cases of accident claims, we have to wait for police and medical reports. Lastly, all matters which are contentious must be brought before the Legal Aid Board either for approval or refusal, depending on whether the applicant has reasonable grounds for being a party to a civil proceeding. In all such cases, an opinion must be returned by the legal officer in charge for the consideration of the Board which convenes once in six weeks or so. It is difficult to please everyone, Sir, but it can be simply said that the officers of the Bureau have always endeavoured and will endeavour to assist applicants as best they can. On the question of the arrogance of the staff, this is another reason why as I have said, the Central Complaints Bureau is still essential. In general, very few people appreciate the difficulties and handicaps which the staff of the Legal Aid Bureau have to face. This can only be appreciated by spending some time in the Legal Aid Bureau. I hope that one of these days the Member for Sembawang will visit the Bureau and see for himself the difficulties that are being faced by the officials. I have not received any complaints of my staff being arrogant. On the contrary, I have had praise for their work in the Bureau. Should there be any such cases, I hope the Member for Sembawang will bring them to my notice and I will surely get an investigation instituted and take the necessary action if it is proved that the officer is arrogant. I have already explained the procedure in the Legal Aid Bureau. There are four reasons why some of the cases are delayed. I do not think I need add anything further to that.

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has said just now that there are many cases pending in the Legal Aid Bureau, that a lot of cases have to be settled and, as a result, the staff might be a bit overworked to be polite to members of the public. If that is the case, I would like to suggest to the Minister that more staff be recruited in order to deal with the many cases outstanding. This is one of the solutions to the problem. I wonder whether the Minister will agree to this.

I will certainly do so if my colleague, the Minister for Finance, will give me the money.

(In Mandarin): If the Minister will submit his proposal to the Minister for Finance, I am sure it will receive sympathetic consideration. In any case, the Minister has given a detailed explanation to the House and I am satisfied with his reply. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1203. Mr Speaker, Sir, there is an increase in the establishment of the Probation and Aftercare Officers from 17 to 21. I would like to ask the Minister how many of these officers will be assigned to the Adult Probation Section which is housed in the subordinate court opposite the Central Police Station. If more officers are assigned to that section, I am afraid there will not be any place for them, because it is so crowded that there is no possibility of adding one more desk and one more chair for another person. Perhaps the Minister might care to look for better accommodation for his officers, because they cannot function properly without the privacy that is due to those whom they are looking after, and under the conditions that I find prevailing in the little cubicles in the subordinate courts. It will be a gross exaggeration if I term it a "black hole", but the conditions there are grim. Perhaps the Minister will look into this particular matter.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I will certainly look into the adverse conditions in the passage leading to the court and administrative offices where some of the public officers are put. However, I wish to inform the House that they will soon be moved to the Ministry building itself when part of the Legal Aid Bureau is moved to our office block at Havelock Road. There is ample space for every one of them in the new place in the Ministry building. They can work much better under these new conditions than they can now.

Thank you, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $1,429,870 for Head l00l ordered to stand part of the Estimates 6.00 p.m. Head 1002 -

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 1002 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Dr Augustine H. H. Tan.) Sir, the Social Welfare Department is a welfare institution which looks after the needs of the poor and unemployed people. Every year the Government sets aside a few million dollars for the welfare of people who require and deserve assistance. In my opinion, this measure is noteworthy and praiseworthy. But there are certain matters about the department which are not satisfactory. In fact, I have received several genuine complaints about the department. For example, the rates of public assistance have been reduced. In the past, the amount of public assistance given to the head of a family was $21 per month. The complaint I have received is that this sum has been reduced to $16 per month. I wonder whether this is true. If it is true, has the reduction been made with good reasons? Sir, $21 per month is already a meagre sum. It is not adequate to maintain the existence of an individual particularly at a time when the cost of living is rising. So a reduction of this sum to $16 will make life even more difficult. Therefore, we should not only refrain from reducing the rate of public assistance but instead give consideration to increasing it, in view of the present circumstances, in order to enable the recipients of public assistance to pull along. I would like the Minister to explain and also to look into the matter.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I note with great concern the almost $2 million cut in expenditure on social welfare. The Minister for Social Affairs has in recent months pointed proudly at the decline in the number of persons on social welfare as an indicator of economic development and increasing employment. As an economist, Sir, I naturally endorse such a reaction. As a socialist, however, I would want to say that the Government should give more in welfare aid per remaining person and perhaps lay down less stringent requirement for such aid. An hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Sir, you will note that disbursements of only $4.9 million under the heading "Other charges, annually recurrent" require personal emoluments of $2.2 million. Sir, the rates of welfare assistance are paltry by any standard. The maximum receivable per family is on $60 per month, a rate which has remained unchanged since 1962, so I am informed by the Director of Social Welfare. As an economist, I am aware that too much public assistance can be a serious deterrent to individual motivations to work. However, in our situation, we are far below the disincentive point. Consider, Sir, the rent for Housing and Development Board flats is at least $20 per month for a one-room flat and public utilities probably cost $10 to $15 per month. Even if a distressed family receives the maximum amount of $60, there is not very much left to keep body and soul together. The biggest cut under the Social Welfare Department's Head is in respect of public assistance allowance from $5.2 million to $3.4 million. Next is the T.B, treatment allowances from $450,000 to $250,000. The item in respect of assistance to displaced and distressed persons is given only a token vote. I cannot believe that we have no more displaced and distressed persons. I may be able to understand and perhaps support an expenditure cut on social welfare if our economy is doing badly. But with the present boom, this is unwarranted and goes very much against our socialist principles. Sir, unlike other classes, the poor and the illiterate are not just inarticulate, they are voiceless. The employers have their representatives and the middle-class has the Member for Katong. But how many will speak up for the poor? I have seen some beautiful penthouses recently, not private ones too. Our statutory boards spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on such things as holiday bungalows and recreational clubs for senior officers. I have nothing against luxury, Sir, if the poorest classes are well taken care of. If this House will vote an increase for social welfare at the rate of at least two-thirds the rate of increase in national income, I promise to stop talking about penthouses here or elsewhere. I might even consent to open one. There is still a great deal that needs to be done in respect of social welfare. There could be improvements in the homes for orphans, for example. Let them have some pieces of chicken along with the curry instead of the curry alone. Our old people's homes could do with more attention too. In our society which is fast modernising, the extended family system is breaking down rapidly. Fewer older people are living with their children. The mother-in-law no longer commands the household in many homes. Probably our flats are too small to house more than two generations under one roof. Let us therefore have more and better homes for the aged. Sir, I hold no brief for the idle and the lazy. But people cannot compete if they are handicapped, and when such is the case, our society should have the compassion to care and to provide adequately if only because of our common humanity.

Mr Speaker, Sir, may I first answer the query of the Member for Sembawang on the decrease in the rate of public assistance from $21 to $16 per month? The present rates of public assistance are: $21 for the head of a family; $10 for the wife; $8 for dependants above 16 years of age, and $5 for dependants below 16 years of age. The usual payment for the head of a family is $21 if the person receives no other sources of income. However, if he has partial income from other sources, the allowance may be reduced. It is not possible to comment on individual cases without knowing the full circumstances of the case. I repeat, we have not reduced any welfare rate at all and, in fact, the policy has not changed so far. In case the Member for Sembawang has got any individual case, he can take it up with my Ministry and we will look into it. As for the Member for Whampoa, he is correct in saying that the cut in expenditure on social welfare will amount to almost $2 million for the coming financial year. To be more exact, the current provision of $9,080,200 will be reduced to $7,178,250, representing a decrease of approximately $1.8 million or 21 per cent. I should point out, however, that this substantial drop in expenditure for the Social Welfare Department is due mainly to more efficient management of the existing welfare services aided by the improving social situation, and not due to any deliberate policy to cut down expenditure on social welfare, in fact, it is the policy of the department to assist all families who are in need of social welfare assistance in one form or another. I would also like to assure the Member for Whampoa that there will be no curtailment in the existing services provided by the Social Welfare Department during the next financial year. On the contrary, there will be an expansion of some of these services. Members will note that the bulk of the reduction in the expenditure estimates of the Social Welfare Department fall under the following items: (a) Public Assistance Provision reduced from $5.2 million to $3.4 million. This is mainly due to the improving unemployment situation and fewer applications for public assistance, and not to any change in policy or in the rates of payment. (b) T.B. Treatment Allowance Provision reduced from $450,000 to $250,000. This is mainly due to improving standards of living and better medical control and treatment of disease. (c) Teachers in voluntary institutions The provision of $252,910 for the salaries of 32 teachers in voluntary institutions has been entered under the expenditure estimates of the Ministry of Education and therefore there will be no reduction in expenditure. These three items alone account for a reduction of $2.3 million in expenditure estimates for the Social Welfare Department. Members will therefore agree that, although there is an overall reduction of $1.8 million in the provision for the Social Welfare Department, the department will in fact have approximately half a million dollars more to spend on its other services, apart from public assistance and T.B., treatment allowances. We agree that the disbursements of only $4.9 million under "Other charges, annually recurrent" require personal emoluments of $2.2 million. I would suggest that it is not a good criterion for assessing existing social welfare services by relating personal emoluments to "Other charges, annually recurrent". In the provision of the social welfare services, assistance given to needy families in the form of personal services is as important as the giving of cash allowances. There are many types of supporting services which the Social Welfare Department can give to enable individuals and families to function more effectively, and unless adequate funds are provided to enable the department to employ professional personnel, the work of the department may tend to become merely palliative. The Member for Whampoa is correct in saying that the existing rates of public assistance have remained unchanged since 1962. But he will no doubt agree with me that the years subsequent to 1962 have been rather difficult years for the Government and that it is only now that our economy has entered a more promising phase, although we are by no means totally out of the wood yet. It is true that the existing rates of public assistance are on the low side, but I should mention that, in addition to the public assistance allowance, a disability allowance of $10 per month is payable to the head of a household who is certified as permanently disabled and incapable of engaging in gainful employment. Bus fares are also given to recipients who have to attend hospital for medical treatment. Supplementary payments in the form of educational grants, meal subsidies, old-age allowances, funeral grants and other special allowances may also be made from other charitable funds to needy families, e.g., the Silver Jubilee Fund, the Lee Foundation, etc. The sum of $250,000 provided for the T.B., treatment allowances under subhead 2064 will be adequate to meet all applications for assistance under the Treatment Allowances Scheme. There is no point in providing funds that will not be required during the coming year, and it is anticipated that the number of T.B. cases will continue to decline in the years ahead. 6.15 p.m. As regards the subhead on assistance to displaced and distressed persons, I should explain that this vote is utilised to provide emergency cash relief to victims of civil calamities and other categories of persons who may be placed in an emergency situation. It is not possible to estimate the amount of funds required for such purposes. Hence the provision of a token vote of $10. Whenever expenditure is incurred under this item, payment will, in the first instance, be made out of the public assistance vote, and should it be found insufficient, an application will be made to the Ministry of Finance for supplementary provision. I tend to agree with the view expressed by the Member for Whampoa that the poor and the illiterate are inarticulate, and I am glad to know that he champions their cause. My Ministry is not unaware of this fact. We are doing everything possible to help this segment of our population. There is no doubt as to what needs to be done in respect of social welfare. In fact, during the last few years the department has been actively engaged not only in consolidating some of its services but also in expanding some of the existing services, as well as introducing new ones. It will be tedious for me to enumerate the whole list of improvements that have been made during the past few years. Suffice it for me to give a few examples of improvements that will take place in the coming financial year to illustrate my point. (a) The Woodlands Home for the Aged is currently being extended with the construction of a few dormitories and dining halls. This will increase the bed capacity in this home from 500 to 704. (b) The Junior Approved School and Remand Home, when completed in mid-1971, will provide accommodation and training facilities for 112 young offenders. (c) The Jurong Town Creche, when completed in mid-1971, will cater for 120 children of working parents. The Fostering Scheme for Infants and Children will be expanded to take in more babies and children who are in need of foster care. The provision for this has been increased from $107,000 to $114,000. (d) Rent subsidy for Malay families affected by urban redevelopment will be paid to an increased number of families. The provision for this has been increased from $35,000 to $80,000.

Your time is up, Mr Chan.

I was told that the people who are staying in the Woodlands Home for the Aged were getting $4 a month, but that they are now getting $1 a month. I want to know whether this is true or not.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I have not heard of this. If the Member has any case and will forward it to us, we will take it up. The policy for the Social Welfare Department has so far not been changed.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary check up this matter on the Woodlands Home?

Yes, I will.

Mr Speaker, Sir, if you will allow me, I would like to refer to a remark that maybe I speak for the middle class. I think that remark is gratuitous. I represent my constituency and I reflect any views which I think this House should hear. Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Were you here when such a remark was passed, Mr Conceicao?

I was absent from the House, Sir.

Perhaps you want Dr Augustine Tan to withdraw that remark, Mr Conceicao?

Sir, as long as my statement goes on the record, I will not mind.

For the record, the Member for Katong does sometimes represent the middle class.

Members should take my remarks in the context of all that I have said in Parliament. During the time even when the Member for Whampoa himself was not yet in this House, Members will find that in all cases, as I have said, I represent my constituency in what I think is right and I reflect views which I think this Parliament should hear.

Your views will be recorded in the Hansard, Mr Conceicao.

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for his very satisfactory answer. I am also happy to note that the Social Welfare Department will do all it can to continue to give assistance to the poor and the needy. This is a piece of great news for all the poor people in Singapore. In view of that, I beg leave to withdraw.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied with the reply by the Parliamentary Secretary for Social Affairs. As a matter of principle, Sir, I refuse to withdraw.

You cannot refuse to withdraw, Dr Augustine Tan, because Mr Teong Eng Siong was the one who moved the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $7,178,250 for Head 1002 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. Head 1003 -

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 1003 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001. Sir, although the point I am raising here is a comparatively minor one, nevertheless I think it worth while to take up the time of the House as it concerns the dignity of the House. If what we discuss here concerning the various aspects of Government administration is not to be taken seriously by the departments concerned, then I think we are making a mockery of the parliamentary system. During last year's debate, I drew the attention of the House to the late publication of the Fire Brigade Annual Report for the year 1967, and the Minister in reply said that he regretted very much that it had come out two years late. He promised that something would be done immediately. Up to date we still have not got the report for the year 1968. We are not only two years late but more than two years behind time! I hope this is not characteristic of the manner in which the Fire Brigade responds to fire alarms. I would appreciate some explanation from the Minister.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I think this is the only department where the personal emoluments have been decreased by $7,090, although four new posts have been created. The Memorandum on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the financial year 1971-72 states that this is because variable and special allowances have decreased by $147,290. What are these variable and special allowances and why have they been withdrawn? I have heard of many resignations from the Fire Brigade. Does the Minister not think that the removal of existing allowances enjoyed by the Fire Brigade personnel could lead to more resignations, and does he not find it difficult to fill the vacancies caused? It is also known that there is a lack of response to filling them. Can the Minister confirm or deny that this is because of the unsatisfactory working conditions and perhaps also because of the unrealistic salaries offered? Since a commission has been set up to look into the salaries of our Police Force, will the Government not set up a commission also to look into the salary structure and working conditions of our Fire Brigade personnel?

Mr Speaker, Sir, with reference to the question put up by the Member for Jalan Kayu, I remember that at the last budget session he raised the question of the late publication of the Fire Brigade Annual Reports, and I said that I would look into it. For the information of the House, the 1968 and 1969 Annual Reports were published in January 1970 and July 1970 respectively. I am also pleased to inform Members of the House that the 1970 Annual Report has been completed in draft form and will be published shortly. I hope the answer is satisfactory to the Member for Jalan Kayu. On the point raised by the Member for Telok Blangah, there is no question at all of a decrease in the personal emoluments of the Fire Brigade. In fact, there has been some reorganisation and expansion and the provision of more senior staff to meet the needs of industry and fire prevention. Although we have some vacancies in the various categories of officers and firemen, this is not due to the poor conditions of work or salary, but because the private sector offers better emoluments. We find very few people who are interested in joining the Singapore Fire Brigade. As regards the variable allowances given to the members of the Fire Brigade some years ago, it is true that the provision for 1971-72 is much less, for the simple reason that many staff members opt to accept the new consolidated salary scales. Variable allowance, of course, is not available to personnel who accept the new consolidated salary scale. As for the special allowance, this is in lieu of the ration allowance. Those who joined the Fire Brigade up to the rank of Section Leader before 9th May, 1961, are eligible for the special allowance. The collective agreement that was effective on 9th May, 1961, was extended until 1969 when it was renegotiated. In 1969 it became effective as a special allowance on the 1st January, 1971. The last point that the Member raised concerns the possibility of reviewing the emoluments of the staff of the Fire Brigade Department. This is being done, and it is hoped that the review will be completed in the near future. 6.30 p.m.

Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I would like to clarify a small point. As far as I am concerned, I cannot recall having received the Annual Reports of the Fire Brigade Department for the two years 1968 and 1969. These Reports are also not available in the Parliament Library. According to the Library records, the last report received from the Department was for 1967. I do not know whether later reports have since been presented to Parliament.

Sir, usually copies of these reports are sent direct by the Government Printer to the various Government departments. Anyway, I will inquire whether or not copies of the 1968 and 1969 Reports have been sent to the Library of Parliament.

I beg leave to withdraw, Sir. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $2,965,400 for Head 1003 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. Head 1004 -

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 1004 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1301. Sir, Members will agree with me that the standard of furniture and other woodwork produced by the Prison Industries is considerably high. Will the Minister consider setting up a permanent office and showroom in the city area in order to push the sales of its products vigorously? Sir, nearly $l 1/2 million, which is a large sum of money, will be spent in the ensuing year, and I think it will be a good idea if we can get back some money from the sale of the goods. I wonder if the Minister will consider my suggestion.

Mr Speaker, Sir, there is no problem at all in the sale of goods produced by the Prison Industries. I agree with the Member for Changi that the goods are of good quality. At the moment, we have a showroom in Changi in the precinct of the Prisons, which I am told is very well patronised. At present the goods are also displayed at the showroom of the Singapore Council of Social Service at Penang Lane. This provides an additional sales outlet for the goods produced by the Prison Industries, So there is no need for another sales centre, as the showroom at Penang Lane is big enough to display the products. For the information of the House -if you will allow me to take a little more time, Sir - the gross income derived by the Prison Industries over the last three years is: 1968 $759,000 1969 $811,000 1970 $904,000 We can see that the income is increasing every year, and this is a good sign.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $6,178,000 for Head 1004 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

6.34 p.m. Resolved, "That, notwithstanding Standing Orders, the Committee of Supply do now report progress." - [Mr E. W. Barker.] Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st April, 1971, to 31st March, 1972, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

So be it.

Resolved, "That Parliament do now adjourn." -[Mr Barker.] Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-three minutes to Seven o'clock p.m.

Monday, 22nd March, 1971

asked the Minister for Health the annual number of admissions into WoodBridge Hospital for the years 1968 to 1970; and the annual number of psychiatric cases treated as out-patients in the varous out-patient clinics, where such treatement is available, during those years; and if such data could be given according to categories of mental illnesses.

Admissions to WoodBridge Hospital for the years 1968 to 1970 are as follows: 1968 3,036 ) 1969 3,179 ) About 50 per cent are 1970 2,931 ) re-admissions Attendances at Psychiatric Out-patient Clinics are as follows: 1968 28,431 1969 37,273 1970 39,847 Outpatient Clinics where psychiatric cases may be treated as out-patients are as follows: Bukit Timah Outpatient Monday afternoons Dispensary Kallang Outpatient Dispensary Monday, Tuesday and Thursday afternoons Queenstown Outpatient Dispensary) Tuesday, Thursday Maxwell Outpatient Dispensary ) and Friday afternoons Paya Lebar Outpatient Wednesday afternoons In addition, a Speacial Referral Clinic is held at Thomson Road General Hospital on Friday afternoons for referral of hospital patients only. A Referral Clinic was held in Outram Road General Hospital up to April, 1970, but was dicontinued due to the Clinic being utilised for the Medical Officer i/c Officials. The analysis of the attendances according to categories of mental illnesses in respect of patients admitted to WoodBridge Hospital for 1969 is shown below and the figures are about the same for the other two years: Percentage Schizophrenia 60.0 Manic and Depressive Illness 10.1 (excluding reative) Dementia due to old age 6.5 Alcoholic psychosis 1.7 Neurosis 1.4 Personality Disorders 2.6 Metal Defective Epileptic 6.2 Epileptic 1.6 Other Organic Psychosis 9.9 ----- 100.0 ===== It is not possible to give a break-down of the categories of mental illnesses seen in the Outpatient Clinics, although it is likely to be the same as that of patients admitted to Woodbridge Hospital except for the lower incidence of mental defectives and dementia due to old age.