Hansard, 1978-03-17

asked the Minister for Law, the Environment and Science and Technology if he will consider waiving prosecution under section 58 (1) of the Water Pollution Control and Drainage Act, 1975, against persons in rural and suburban constituencies who fail to construct Rural Sewerage System R2 because of financial difficulties. The Minister for Law, the Environment and Science and Technology (Mr E.W. Barker): Sir, I am afraid the answer to the Member for Thomson must be "No." The construction of the Rural Sewerage System R2 is necessary in water catchments to prevent pollution of water flowing into our reservoirs. It is, therefore, not advisable to give exemption to any persons residing in water catchment areas from providing the R2 system or to waive prosecution under the Water Pollution control and Drainage Act, 1975. I would like to inform Members that in cases of financial hardship the Sewerage Department will construct the R2 system, in the first instance, and allow the persons concerned to pay the cost in monthly instalments over a period of not more than five years. The R2 sewerage system is a simple system. It consists of two buried concrete pipes which are inter-connected, a small brick chamber and pipes laid shallow underground to form a soak-away system. The estimated construction cost is about $1,500.

asked the Minister for Finance what action will be taken against those top civil servants who usually ignore replying to letters from members of the public.

Sir, I am afraid that the Question raised by the Member for Thomson is cast on the lines of its more famous or, should I say, infamous predecessor, "Have you stopped beating your wife now?" I am therefore unable to answer the question in a way I think the Member would like the answer to be given. However, I can assure the Member that if he has specific instances of top civil servants not replying to letters tom the public, I would appreciate it if he could let me know and I can promise him that appropriate action will be taken.

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [4th Allotted Day).

Head O (cont) Resumption of Debate on Question [16th March, 1978]. "That the sum to be allocated for Head O be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code OE-01 of the Main Estimates." - (Mr R Govindaswamy). Question again proposed.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson raised quite a number of points yesterday before we adjourned, He asked about the General Purpose Counter system which was introduced in February this year and whether it has been working satisfactorily so far. I would like to report to him that it has been working satisfactorily since its introduction. The General Purpose Counter provides a more convenient, speedy and flexible postal counter service, as members of the public no longer have to queue up at different counters to obtain different postal counter services. The posting of parcels is still being made at a separate Parcel Counter. The rest are General Purpose Counters. Inconvenience and delays have been minimised, although queues are sometimes unavoidable if there is a rush at a particular point of time. The advantages of a General Purpose Counter system more than outweigh the disadvantages in terms of overall service efficiency and staff productivity. Generally speaking, we are satisfied with the service. He also asked how often does the Postal Department check on the stocks of items like stamps, aerogrammes, etc. Stocks of stamps, aerogrammes, etc. at the post offices are checked weekly, while the general stock position at the headquarters is checked monthly. The recent shortage of supply of the pictorial aerogrammes at some of the post offices which he mentioned was due largely to the unexpected heavy demand at the end of last year. To rectify this situation, the Postal Services Department ordered an emergency supply of the pictorial aerogrammes from the printers a fortnight ago. The new supply of these aerogrammes is expected to arrive sometime this month. Meanwhile, normal supplies of the pictorial aerogrammes have been restored to this post office where the demand is very heavy. We hope that this unsatisfactory situation of short-supply will not happen again. The existing pictorial aerogramme actually was deliberately printed in very faint pastel shade to enable the writing to be legible. As the objective of this pictorial aerogramme is to help to promote our tourist industry, to show how green and beautiful Singapore is, we thought it wise to reproduce Singapore's scenic spots across the whole back portion of the aerogramme. If we are to superimpose the blank portion, it may mar the pictures. I have examined these pictorial aerogrammes myself It is not really that bad. One can read the address very clearly. Anyway, at the end of this month we are introducing a new aerogramme without the picture. This will satisfy those who have difficulty in reading. The Member for Anson also asked about assistant postmen and women who were asked to stay back at the last minute of the day to do overtime work or emergency work. Sometimes this is unavoidable. The reason is that they have to cope with occasional heavier arrival of mails from overseas or big consignment of mails which need to be despatched to the wharves for delivery overseas. This happens on normal working days and not on weekends or Saturdays. Sometimes they have to cover the duties of those assistant postmen who have gone on medical leave or for other reasons. So they have to do overtime to avoid disruption to the mail service. During festive seasons, such as Christmas and Chinese New Year, in order to clear the extra loads of mails, these overtime duties are unavoidable, otherwise there would be delays in deliveries. He asked how many assistant postmen and women are in the service, and also the rate of resignation or attrition, and recruitment. As at February this year, the total actual strength of both assistant postmen and assistant postwomen in the Department was 106, 86 men and 20 women. The authorised establishment of this grade of postal uniformed staff is 111. So there are only five vacancies. During the financial year 1977, 64 assistant postmen and postwomen were recruited. 59 of these were assistant postmen and five assistant postwomen. During this year, 12 have resigned, 13 absconded without notice or vacated office. In addition 7 were dismissed. So all together 32 had left the service. The rate of attrition was, therefore, lower than the rate of recruitment. Over 90% of those who had resigned or vacated office without prior notice during the financial years from 1974 to 1977 were assistant postmen. This is largely due to the nature of the work which requires physical strength and effort. Therefore, many male staff resigned for lighter work elsewhere. However, the rate of attrition among assistant postwomen is lower than assistant postmen, as they are not required to do heavy porterage work. They usually work indoors at the Mail and Parcel Centre. The Member would be pleased to note the various improvements that have been made in the past to the working conditions at the Mail and Parcel Centre, and we will continue to look into ways to improve their working conditions. Recruitment exercises for assistant postmen and postwomen are conducted by the Postal Department, as and when necessary, to fill the vacancies. The Ministry of Labour and the Singapore Armed Forces Reservists Association have been requested from time to time to supply the candidates to fill these vacancies. The Member also wants to know how many bicycles are there and how old they are, and why postmen are made to use the unisex bicycles. Presently, the Postal Services Department has 330 bicycles in service. Of these, 140 bicycles, or 45%, are more than 10 years old. So 55% are less than 10 years old. However, these bicycles are still in serviceable condition and, where necessary, they are either given a new coat of paint or sent for necessary repairs. In the case of bicycles which are beyond economic repair, they are sent for replacement. In the last three years, 43 bicycles were replaced. 2.45 p.m. This system of regular inspection and replacement ensures that only bicycles which are serviceable will be retained for continued use by the postal staff. The present policy of the Postal Services Department, as he has mentioned, is to introduce bicycles without cross-bars, when the old ones are being replaced. It may be unisex bicycles. But the objective is to accord flexibility, so that these bicycles can be used either by postmen or postwomen for mail delivery purposes. There is therefore no reason for the postman to feel embarrassed or ashamed about using this type of bicycle without cross-bars. I think it is a matter of habit and they will get used to it. At the present moment, there are in use 52 such bicycles without cross-bars. The Member would like to see a better colour distinction on the uniforms of postmen for easy identification. I am pleased to tell him that the Postal Department will be introducing additional distinguishing features to the uniform of these officers in this financial year. Details will be made known later on. I am pleased that the hon. Member is happy with our proposed speed post service and he asked when will this be implemented. The speed post service will be implemented on 1st April this year. This service will provide a door-to-door collection and delivery of postal packages. It will initially operate between Singapore and Hong Kong and between Singapore and the United Kingdom. At a later stage we may extend the service to other countries such as the United States of America, Canada, Australia and Japan where there is a potential demand for such a service. The Member asked about the possibility of air-conditioning all the post offices for the benefit of staff and the general public. There are presently seven post offices which are air-conditioned. These post offices are either situated in premises which are centrally air-conditioned or they share premises with POSB branches which are air-conditioned. The Member would appreciate that it is very costly to air-condition all the post offices in Singapore. However, the Postal Services Department will consider air-conditioning its other post offices as and when funds are available. I think I have covered all the points.

Sir, I agree with the reply given by the Senior Minister of State for Communications. The assistant postmen and assistant postwomen are doing heavy work. A man can only work up to a certain limit. How can you ask a man who weighs 120 lbs to carry a mail bag weighing 80 lbs? The Postal Department has always got vacancies for the post of postman because of the difficult nature of the job. You must give more -

Money.

No, more staff. Otherwise, after one or two days they will resign. The qualifications of a postman are now either Secondary IV or Secondary III. It is very difficult to get people with these qualifications to work as postmen. How can you ask these people to carry mail bags? If the qualification is School Certificate, they should be allowed to choose the type of job they like. They can choose to be a sweeper. postman or clerk. Since they have the same qualification their salary should also be the same. Then there will be no trouble. If he likes to be a postman, he can choose to become a postman. The Minister for Finance should think about this because this is very important. If we cannot get the people to do this work, we can recruit outsiders on work permits. Work in the Postal Department is not easy. If one letter is lost, he can be sentenced to seven years' imprisonment. It is a very responsible job. I was working in the Postal Department before and I know the difficulties. There are all sorts of problems in the Postal Department. Another point is this. When they know that the work cannot be finished, the staff would be asked to stay back. This department wants to get a medal! The department should be told to do their work properly and that there should be proper coordination of work among the staff so that the work can be carried out smoothly. I hope that I do not have to bring up this question again next year. Anyway, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

( In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head O be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code OE-01 of the Main Estimates. Sir, previously I had raised a number of questions relating to the Postal Services Department which other Members had also raised, like the Member for Anson. Generally, the complaints were about delays in delivery of mail and misdelivery of mail. After making such complaints in Parliament, there was considerable improvement in the Postal Services Department. As a result in the last two years I did not receive so many complaints of this nature. I should congratulate the Minister and the staff of the Postal Department for raising their standard of service. The Member for Anson also referred to the use of bicycles which are more than 20 years old but the Minister in his answer stated that bicycles of more than 10 years old are still in use. If the Department wants to provide a more efficient postal service, then they should have good bicycles for use by the postmen. As the saying goes, if you want a job done well, you must have good tools. If the bicycles are too old and rickety, the Department cannot expect good service out of the staff. I hope the Senior Minister of State will look into this matter. Sir, this complaint about the misdirection and delay in the delivery of mail has been attended to, and I would like the Senior Minister of State to convey my congratulations and compliments to all the postal staff for an improvement in the service. It is important that we maintain a high standard of efficiency in our postal services, particularly in a country like Singapore which is highly commercialised and urbanised. In Singapore we all stress the importance of efficiency and speed in the direction of government affairs, commercial activities and private correspondence. In this respect, the Postal Services Department plays a very important role in the maintenance of efficient services so that there is no misdelivery or delay in the delivery of mail which can affect some people adversely. Generally speaking, our postal services are satisfactory. It does not, however, mean that there are no defects or shortcomings. On the contrary, there are still some defects which can be improved. I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to two matters. Firstly, I have received complaints from my constituents that some postmen in the Marsiling Post Office are not doing their work properly. For example, registered mails are n(it delivered to the addressees, in spite of the fact that some members of the family are always at home. They simply leave behind one card to say that the mail could not be delivered and asked the addressee to go and collect the mail from the post office. Worse, the post oft ce has at times written wrongly the name of the recipient on the card. I can give ons example. One Mr Nah had his name written on the card as Mr "Liah". So he took this card to the post office to collect his mail, only to find out that his name had been wrongly written, Sir, if "N" for "National" is wrongly written as "M". then the mistake is not so serious. But if "N" is written as "L" for "London ,', then the mistake is serious because the two letters are miles apart. This mistake is inexcusable, and it shows the nonchalant attitude of the postal staff concerned. I hope the Minister will look into the matter to rectify immediately the attitude of the workers in the post office concerned. Secondly, Sir, I have also received complaints from my constituents that the staff in the Marsiling Post Office do not have a standard practice of assessing postage rates. A man once went to the post office to post a parcel. The postage was assessed at $20 which was reasonable. He then sent his friend to post another parcel containing the same article. This time the postage was assessed at $46, an increase of $26. When his friend told him about this $46-postage, he was very surprised. So he personally went back to the post office again and asked for a re-assessment of the postage for the parcel. It was assessed at only $21. From this example, we can either infer that some members of the staff do not know how to assess postage or that they have not been doing their work seriously and correctly. So, I hope the Minister will look into the matter to ensure that there will be no recurrence of such incidents.

Sir, my colleague, the Member for Sembawang also spoke about the postal services. I thank him for that. He complained that the Marsiling Post Office is not working properly. Most probably the postage was $46 instead of $21 which could be wrong. If there is any doubt, he must see the Postmaster. 3.00 p.m. Concerning the registered mail, maybe the postman did not know where to find the people to accept the registered letter. If a wrong address is given on the envelope, it is not easy for the postman to deliver it. If the address is written, say, 12 Upper Thomson Road, there are many No. 12s in Thomson Road. The sender must know the district number for Upper Thomson Road. Let us not blame the postmen. Theirs is a hard job. On the one hand if we appreciate the work that postmen do, then we should not, on the other hand, blame them if anything goes wrong. That is no good. If we appreciate their work, then we should not blame them. If we want to blame them, we should not say that they are very good. They are public servants. They go out to deliver letters, rain or shine. They work very hard. We must appreciate that. So we should not put a blame on them. That is my point of clarification.

Mr Ong, do you wish to reply now?

( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I would like to thank the Member for Anson for making his sympathetic remarks on the subject. What we should understand is that the job of a postman is a tough one. It is not easy to carry out such a job. He has to cycle in the hot sun. Rain or shine, he has to do it. Yes, it is a tough job. Of course, at times wrong addresses could have been written or there could be a wrong spelling of the name in English. It could also be that the sender did not write the name correctly and clearly. For example, "Nah" could be construed as "Liah". It could be that "Nah" has not been written clearly and was mistaken for "Liah". If anyone for no good reason changes the name of a person, it would be regarded as a serious and inexcusable act. Such act should not be allowed. If there is such a case, I hope the Member for Sembawang will hand over these letters to me so that I can deal with the matter until the truth is out and the culprit apprehended. In the meantime, I would notify all the officers in the Postal Department to pay more attention to this matter. With regard to any query relating to postal services, as the Member for Anson has suggested, the person concerned should approach the Postmaster in charge. He need not run elsewhere to lodge his complaint. I think direct dealings with the Post Office concerned is the best policy. As regards non-delivery of registered mails and parcels, I think that is rather unlikely because, according to the regulations, the postman will have to turn up at the address at least once to try and deliver the parcel or mail. If there should be nobody at home, the postman will then have to prepare a notice card on the spot for the addressee concerned, giving the office telephone number of the postal officer concerned and put it in the letter box. The addressee can then either go to the post office himself or get somebody to receive the mail on his behalf. Alternatively, he can ring up to inform the post office of the time when he will be at home to receive the registered mail. He must then make sure that somebody will be at home so as not to waste the postman's time. This will also alleviate the burden of the postman and make his job easier.

( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to raise a point regarding the post office counter dealing with parcels. This is part of the postal services. The Parcel Centre I refer to is at Nelson Road. The site was formerly a PSA godown. I had been there previously. I found the place rather hot and dusty. At the same time, I also heard comments that there were no toilet facilities. How can we expect to raise the efficiency of the staff with such poor working conditions? The place is hot and dusty, and very uncongenial. I would like to ask the Senior Minister of State whether there is any plan to shift the centre to another place.

( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not aware that the Member for Mountbatten was there. When did he go there? Was it in 1975, 1976 or last year? I personally went there last year. There is a toilet. We have also installed as a temporary measure air blowers so as to provide better circulation of air to help improve the working conditions. The question of improving the working conditions or environment is one thing and the type of job to be done is another matter. This is a place where the work environment is not so pleasant because there are lots of parcels and postal articles piled up all over the place. It is not like an airconditioned office where the work is different. However we will try to improve the situation wherever possible.

( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, what I have described are actual conditions at this Parcel Centre. My main point is that it is better to move the Centre to an alternative site. As the Minister has said, air blowers are just a temporary measure to remedy the situation. What is fundamental is to move to a more suitable place where better facilities are available.

( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is rather difficult to get a suitable alternative site because the present Parcel Centre is in the PSA vicinity and is near the harbour. We have a plan to build a new Postal Centre, particularly a parcel centre. I do not know when the plan will be implemented. I do not have the details with me now, but I will inform the Member at some other time if he wants them.

( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I would like to congratulate the Member for Anson for answering our questions on behalf of the Minister, which he very much likes to do. As regards his defence of the postmen, I also sympathise with him. He should not say that all the postmen are a hundred per cent good. There are at least some black sheep. Is that not true? I am not quite satisfied with the answer given by the Senior Minister of State. He says that for registered letters the postman would visit the address at least once. In this particular case Mr Nah had himself gone to the post office three times. Moreover, some members of his family are at home all the time. I would also like the Minister to look into this matter. There was also mention just now that 10-year old bicycles are being used by the postmen. At that age the bicycles would have been in a broken-down condition. It is difficult to use bicycles to deliver mail in the rural areas. I wonder whether motor cycles or scooters can be used instead, in order to relieve the burden of the postmen to a certain extent. There is also the question of the wrong weighing of the parcels which results in different charges for postage. It is usually difficult to see the Postmaster in a post office. Sometimes he is not around the counters but in his room. If anyone wishes to see him, the staff would ask, "Who are you? What do you want to see the Postmaster for?" I hope the Postmaster or some senior officer will go round to inspect the post offices. This will greatly help to improve the situation.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I notice, as a matter of interest, that in the last three years 43 bicycles were replaced. There are 140, or more than 45% of the 330 bicycles which are more than 10 years old. The Senior Minister of State did not say how many of them are more than 15 years old although my good Friend, the Member for Anson, has remarked that there are some bicycles which are more than 20 years old. The Minister of State has not refuted the statement. Sir, nowadays, if a car is more than ten years old it has to be scrapped. I am wondering how this policy can be reconciled with the case of these bicycles.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Sembawang said that I was replying on behalf of the Minister. I was not replying on his behalf. I had worked in the Postal Department before and I know the difficulties in that department. That is the reason why I have to speak. I cannot keep quiet sitting down here. What would be the use of being a Member of Parliament then? I must draw the Minister's attention to the inadequacies in the Postal Department. I was not answering on behalf of the Minister. Since the Senior Minister of State has not given an adequate reply, I have therefore offered some practical suggestions. Any objections to that? Some hon. Members: No.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I just make a comment on the age of bicycles. A bicycle should not be thought of in the same way as a motor car. When I was studying in America, I was just surprised to see large numbers of bicycles which were indeed, perhaps 20 or 30 years old still in serviceable condition. It is a sad commentary on people in developing countries that bicycles and machinery are not kept in very good condition and consequently they do not last as long as they should. Provided there is proper and regular oiling and cleaning of the bicycles, I think they should last virtually forever. 3.15 p.m.

Sir, I do not know whether I need to reply further on this matter. As I have mentioned earlier, so long as the bicycles are in serviceable condition, it is irrelevant whether it is one year old, 10 years old or 20 years old. If the bicycles are found to be beyond economic repair and are not serviceable, they will be replaced. On the question of whether we could use scooters instead of bicycles, it is a matter of getting funds and whether the postmen are able to ride scooters on the rural tracks. The amount of damage to the scooters would be much greater than the damage to the bicycles used in the rural areas.

Sir, the Member for Whampoa said that in New York bicycles are used for many years. I do not know for how many years. We do not know whether it is 40 years or 50 years. The United States is a cold country and bicycles are not used very often. Singapore is a hot country. The postmen use the bicycles everyday and they cycle a distance of at least 20 miles a day. From this, we can tell the number of miles they cover in one year. This means that the bicycles are overused and they break down easily. My colleague, the Member for Punggol, is right. The old bicycles should be scrapped. If motorcars can be scrapped, why can we not scrap the old bicycles? I do not agree with this view. I know the job of a postman. I was a postman before. I have ridden a bicycle over 40 miles a day, from Nee Soon Post Office to Yio Chu Kang, 10 m.s. and returned and then proceeded again to Thomson Road, 5 m.s. This was done twice a day. Members can calculate the distance covered. I have ridden bicycles; I know the difficulties. When climbing a hill, it is so difficult to pedal and sometimes the chain comes off. Nowadays the postmen have better working conditions. Anyway, the old bicycles should be replaced. The Postal Department is providing essential services. As the Member for Sembawang has said, if we want good service we must have good equipment.

Sir, a point of clarification. I think the Member for Anson has misunderstood me. If it is a matter of long distances that have to be travelled, then I would support his view that a more appropriate means of transportation should be found. He would be very surprised to learn that at Stanford University in Palo Alto where I was studying in California, people ride bicycles a lot. Professors go about on bicycles every day and as a result the people there are very healthy. I would recommend that to the Member.

Sir, with due respect to my learned Friend, the Member for Whampoa, I do not know how long he spent at Stanford University to be able to say that the people there have used bicycles for 20, 30 or 40 years. As a little boy, I owned a bicycle and have ridden bicycles. I would agree that if a bicycle is well looked after and maintained, it will last a long time. But the point my good Friend, the Member for Anson, made is that the bicycle is constantly used every day from morning till afternoon, and this heavy wear and tear causes frequent breakdowns. And sometimes it is beyond economic repair, as pointed out by the Senior Minister of State. Therefore, I think steps should be taken to consider replacing those bicycles that are above 10 years old and are beyond economic repair. I am surprised that in the past three years, only 43 bicycles have been replaced. Dr Augustine Tan rose -

Dr Tan, I think you have made your views known. Time is getting on. Mr Teong.

( In Mandarin): Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I would like to suggest to the Minister to set up a committee to see whether the bicycles are in a serviceable condition. Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head O be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code OF-01 of the Main Estimates. Sir, I wonder whether the Hon. Minister has any statistics of traffic accidents in Singapore caused by mechanical failure. At present, commercial vehicles in Singapore are required to undergo yearly road-worthiness tests. Unfortunately private vehicles are not presently being tested. Judging by the condition of some of these private vehicles on the road, they are lethal weapons because of the poor condition they are in. I wonder if the Minister will consider introducing similar tests for private vehicles. Secondly, I have here a copy of the Highway Code. There is a rule on Keeping Left. It says "Always keep left. Unless overtaking, turning right or making a U-turn, then keep right." I brought up this matter last ear as well but I was told then that there would be road safety campaigns and that things would improve. Unfortunately, I do not think the situation on our roads is any better now than it was last year. If we were to compare the traffic condition in Singapore with that of some of the major cities in this region, then yes I agree that the traffic condition in our country is good. But if we were to compare it with some of the Western capitals, then I think our traffic condition here is rather poor. I think the major cause of the poor traffic condition is the failure of our drivers to keep to the left. If we can get our drivers to keep to the left, I am certain that the number of vehicles on the road will be reduced because traffic flow will improve and therefore vehicles need to spend less time on the road. This will mean fuel saved and thus savings in foreign exchange. So I would like the Hon. Minister to consider launching a Keep Left campaign in Singapore soon and also, in conjunction with the enforcement section of the Traffic Police, to take action against motorists who refuse to keep left.

Sir, we have statistics of accidents caused by mechanical faults. The statistics kept by the Traffic Police show that for the period January 1977 to November 1977, 91 1/2% or 26,357 accidents out of a total of 28,814 accidents were caused by careless and inattentive drivers whereas accidents resulting from mechanical faults of vehicles accounted for only 0.09% of the total number of accidents. At present, all public service vehicles and goods vehicles are already subject to compulsory inspections at regular intervals. For example, all taxis and public buses are called up for inspection twice a year, while all goods vehicles, excursion buses, private buses, private hired buses, private hired cars are all required to be inspected once a year. During the inspection, the vehicles are checked to ensure that they are roadworthy. Those which are not are sent away to correct the faults identified by the ROV. A vehicle is certified roadworthy when all the faults are rectified. The Member's suggestion will be looked into. My Ministry is currently examining the feasibility of introducing compulsory inspection of private cars which are two years old and above. The object of this is to ensure a high level of car maintenance which will not only enhance road safety but also minimise pollution caused by poorly maintained cars. Sir, I also have a copy of the Highway Code here, and the Road Traffic Rules. The Highway Code, Rule 50 on "Keep Left" says: "When driving along, keep well to the left and as near as practicable to the boundary of the road, except when you intend to overtake or turn right. Do not hug the middle of the road. This applies to dual carriageways as well." The Road Traffic Rules, No. 6 also says: "Every vehicle which is moving at a slow rate of speed shall be driven as close to the left hand edge of the road way as possible and every vehicle shall at all times be driven in such manner as not to obstruct vehicles moving at a faster speed." I agree with the Member that there would be less traffic congestion if motorists follow the Highway Code or the Road Traffic Rules by keeping left at all times unless overtaking or turning right The Traffic Police has stepped up enforcement action to book road hoggers who violate this rule. Certain roads such as Nicoll Highway, Ayer Rajah Road, Lornie Road, upper Thomson Road and Braddell Road have been singled out for intensive enforcement action. As a result, in 1977 a total of 5,081 motorists were booked for not keeping left. The Traffic Police has assured me that continued action will be taken to enforce the Keep Left ruling. If the Member feels that there should be a campaign, perhaps he would like to put the suggestion to me in writing and he should be prepared to sit in the Campaign committee.

May I remind Members that we still have five amendments standing on the Order Paper Supplement for Head O and we have only 15 minutes left. Mr Haleem, would you like to withdraw or put your amendment to the vote?

Sir, in view of what the Senior Minister of State has said, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn. 3.30 p.m.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head O be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code OF-02 of the Main Estimates. Sir, everybody knows that Jurong Town is the largest industrial town in Singapore. I am proud to be associated with this town, which literally consists of an industrial sector and a residential estate. Because it is a big town, during peak hours in the morning and in the afternoon, the vehicular movement is intense. However, amidst the hustle and bustle, the SBS seems to be unable to provide an efficient service to the residents of Jurong Town. During the peak hours, buses are invariably crowded and workers can hardly board a bus to get to their place of work in time. The insufficient and unsatisfactory bus service has given rise to the proliferation of pirate taxis in this town. The re-emergence of pirate taxis not only constitutes an eye-sore in Jurong but also endangers other road users, as most of the pirate taxi operators are reckless. I understand that the Ministry of Communications is not the only authority that deals with pirate taxis. I have also taken up this matter with the Commissioner of Police, but the fact still remains that the pirate taxi operators are more than willing to risk arrest because the demand is there and it is there because the bus service is far from satisfactory. Sir, I feel that something has to be done to improve the bus service in Jurong Town. In particular, I would like to suggest to the Minister concerned to look into the feasibility of providing an internal bus service connecting the following three points, namely, the Jurong Town residential area, the Boon Lay residential area and the Jurong Industrial site. If the SBS is unable to provide such a service, would the Minister consider allowing private bus companies to run such a service?

Mr Teong, would you like to speak now on your amendment (10)?

( In Mandarin): Yes, Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir. In recent years the bus service in Singapore has apparently improved, but not entirely satisfactory. It is not an easy task to provide a highly efficient bus service to two million people. But the question is whether the people in charge are responsible, effective and dynamic enough to improve its efficiency.

Mr Teong, I think you are on the wrong item, because Public Transport is under Subhead Code OF-04 and your amendment (10) is under Subhead Code OF-02. When we come to Subhead Code OF-04, I shall ask you to speak.

( In Mandarin): Sir, amendment (10) is under my name, but you have asked me to speak.

That is true, but you are speaking out of turn. So would you please sit down. Mr Ong.

Sir, we realise that SBS currently does not serve Jurong as well as desired. That is why SBS will be introducing a rationalisation scheme to provide a feeder service at the terminal point, and from that point one could take a bus to any other destination in the island. This rationalisation has yet to be introduced. It will come into operation on the 1 7th April this year. So it is too early to say whether SBS has the capacity to serve Jurong Industrial Estate, Jurong Housing Estate or Boon Lay Garden. We will let this scheme have a go first. We will then monitor the situation and make whatever improvement that may be necessary.

Sir, unless the Senior Minister of State can assure the House that the introduction of the feeder service will not increase the burden of the commuters such a service is unlikely to be welcomed by the workers of Jurong Town.

Mr Ho, are you withdrawing your amendment?

Sir, in view of the time factor, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head O be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code OF-03 of the Main Estimates. Sir, those who do not observe the law and those who blatantly show contempt of the law must be severely dealt with. To punish our helpless workers, who do not break the law but are made to break them by others is a different matter altogether. I refer to the helpless drivers of SBS who are booked for allowing passengers to stand in the doorway of buses during peak hours. During peak hours, the travelling public is always anxious to get a place in the vehicle to reach their place of work in time or return to their homes as soon as possible. Sometimes passengers rush in and pack the bus and ignore requests from the conductor not to stand in the doorway of the buses. To avoid ugly scenes and delays, the conductor just gives up and proceeds to collect fares and issue tickets to passengers. By this time the bus is on the move. At other times, it is physically impossible for the conductor or driver to see if there are any passengers standing on the steps leading into the bus. If the bus is fitted with automatic hydraulic doors, the problem does not arise at all, as by the time the signal is given to the driver to shut the door the passengers would already be inside the bus. But the SBS still has 733 one-door buses that are not fitted with automatic hydraulic doors, and these are the ones that the commuters find it possible to misuse. If the Traffic Police want to book them for this offence, I suggest that they book the SBS, not the poor bus workers. Of late, because the said rule can only be applied to drivers of these vehicles, the Traffic Police has booked an SBS driver. In addition to a fine, this rule also imposes demerit points. So if a driver is booked twice under this rule, the driver would have accumulated sufficient demerit points to be suspended from driving for a whole year. His livelihood is thus jeopardised for something which he did not do. We feel that it is too harsh and unconscionable to punish the driver in this manner when, in fact, the type of buses used does contribute a great deal to this dangerous situation. In any case these buses without hydraulic doors will, in time, be phased out. All buses in future will be equipped with hydraulically operated doors and this will once and for all remove the danger of passengers standing on the steps. In the interim it is hoped that this particular rule in the Road Traffic Act can be made less rigid so as not to affect the livelihood of bus drivers.

Sir, it is very dangerous to stand on the steps of a moving bus. When the bus comes to a sudden halt or negotiates a bend, there is a great likelihood that those passengers standing on the steps will slip or lose hold of their grip and fall off the bus. This can result in death or injury. SBS drivers and conductors have been told and given ample warning of the risks involved in allowing passengers to stand on the steps. There is nothing more dangerous than the loss of life and limb, a danger which can be prevented by bus drivers and conductors themselves. For example, the bus driver can refuse to drive on if the passengers remain standing on the steps. No doubt it is true that some passengers are stubborn and refuse to take heed or advice from the conductor or driver and continue to stand on the steps. Thus the penalty meted out to bus drivers or conductors may appear to be harsh in cases like this. To book SBS is no solution and it would not be fair either to SBS. I shall ask the SBS, ROV and the Traffic Police to get together and look into the problem. Perhaps these stubborn passengers who refuse to take advice from the conductor should be made to pay part of the penalty. Anyway, I will ask the various parties concerned to look into the matter.

Sir, the best advice from the union to its workers is, as the Senior Minister of State has said, that the driver should refuse to move on, if the Traffic Police continues to summon the bus drivers and conductors. Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Baptist, amendment (12). You have only one minute left before guillotine time. If you want a reply from the Minister, you can speak for 30 seconds and allow the Minister to reply.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head O be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code OF-04 of the Main Estimates. With the many complaints against the public transport system and with the policy of Singapore limiting the number of cars on our roads, there will be a tendency for some people to import tandems. I was wondering whether the Minister would consider the registration of tandems. Used on our roads, they can be very dangerous because, powered by two pairs of legs, high speeds can be achieved. Apart from the problem of balance and control, the mechanical braking device is also suspect, especially when the wheels and tyres are not sufficiently thick to provide effective braking at surfaces where the brake shoes come into contact with the rims and where the tyres come into contact with the road surface. The weight of two persons on the tandem also limits efficient braking. Would the Minister inform the House whether there are any tandems registered or whether there are any rules and regulations governing the registration of tandems?

Sir, offhand, I do not recall any of these tandems being registered with the ROV. I fully agree with his views so explicitly expressed that if we are to allow tandems on our roads, it will be very dangerous. I do not think my Ministry will encourage the registration of these tandems or allow them to be used on the roads. 3.45 p.m.

Order. Guillotine time, Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The time allotted for Head O having expired the following amendment standing in the name of Mr Ho See Beng was not proceeded with -

Mr Lee Yiok Seng is not here. Amendment (2), Mr Lim Chee Onn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head P be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code PC-02 of the Main Estimates. Sir, one of the preoccupations of the civil service has been, and I hope it will continue to be, to find out how it can improve the extent and grade of service provided to the public. Towards this end, the terms and conditions of employment of civil servants have been improved with the aim of retaining the better officers and reducing the turnover rate. I am certain that hon. Members will agree with me that this course of action should be applicable not only to civil servants in the Superscales but also to Divisions III and IV officers, the people at the base of the pyramid. For it is only when there is fair treatment to everyone within an organisation that its efficiency and efficacy are assured. However, it would appear that the Registry of Trade Marks and Patents does not subscribe to this policy. Sir, I would like to draw the attention of the Hon. Minister to the case of a junior officer who has been working in the Registry of Trade Marks and Patents since February 1975 without a rest day being given him. This officer has been asked to perform his duty since 10th February 1975, on the following hours. On weekdays, that is, from Mondays to Fridays, between 5,00 p.m. and 8.00 a.m. the following morning. On Saturdays, from 1.00 p.m. to 8.00 a.m. the following Monday. Moreover, he has to perform his duties on public holidays. All this was expected of him without any form of compensation whatsoever, be it time off or overtime pay. The attention of the Registrar of Trade Marks and Patents was drawn to this sad state of affairs and the reply from the Registrar was received in October 1977. The reply acknowledged that an irregular situation existed in the Registry. This, to my mind, is indeed euphemism par excellence. According to my calculations, during the period between 10th February 1975 and 1st October 1977, the officer has worked 9,580 hours in excess of the required number of hours of work expected of him. In addition to that, he has not been given any of the 136 rest days and 29 public holidays due to him. It is no wonder that the local press has termed him "The Marathon Man". Judging by his ability to persevere, he may even be bionic, to boot. When its attention was drawn to this case, the Registry should have reviewed the facts more objectively. Instead, the Registry chose to give a reply stating that there was some ambiguity in the actual working hours of the officer. To add insult to injury, after acknowledging that the working hours of the officer were not satisfactory, the Ministry concluded in the same breath that it was not possible to substantiate any claim of extra hours of actual work performed in the past. Sir, if there was an oversight or error committed on the part of senior officers, the Registry or the Ministry should make every effort to ensure that wrongs are righted instead of trying to gloss over these errors with technicalities. Junior officers should not be made to pay for the mistakes of their supervisors. Unless such principles are adopted and practised at every level of the civil service, all our efforts to improve the performance of the civil service will come to naught. Hon. Members will agree that my remarks are applicable to any Government department or Ministry. However, since we are discussing a specific case in the Ministry of Law, could I have an assurance from the Minister that he will direct the senior officers in his Ministry to review this and any other similar cases, if any, more objectively and sympathetically.

Mr Ivan Baptist is not here. Mr Barker.

Sir, the Member is referring to a claim by the AU PE on behalf of a caretaker employed by the Registry of Trade Marks and Patents for retrospective compensation in respect of work allegedly performed on rest days, public holidays and overtime over the period from 10th February 1975 until August 1977, as well as compensation for the period of overtime since that day. The hon. Member has given one side of the case. Perhaps I can throw some light on the other side, The employee is claiming, through the AUPE, compensation for 9,580 hours overtime, 136 rest days and 29 public holidays. In August 1977 when a surprise check was made on this particular caretaker, on four occasions on 10th and 11th August, he was found missing. Following his absence from work, he was reprimanded. Thereafter, he joined the AU PE. Then we got a demand. But unfortunately the hours of work when he was employed and the provision for rest days were not explicitly laid down and loose administrative arrangements seemed to have prevailed. But, as I said, no issue was raised by the employee until he was reprimanded and joined the union. However, the entire question has since been looked into and thi3 actual working times of the caretaker have now been specifically defined. Action is in hand in consultation with the Ministry of Finance to work out an equitable compensation formula in respect of those ascertainable periods of work performed by the claimant. In respect of periods he claimed he worked overtime prior to the date of the union's first representation, it will be rather difficult to verify the position. But we are taking up this matter with the Ministry of Finance which coughs out the money, and I can assure the Member that we will do our best to find a settlement on a fair basis.

Sir, I am quite gratified to note that the Hon. Minister has deemed it fit to take up the case on behalf of the Registry of Trade Marks and Patents. I should have imagined that the alleged periods of absence of the caretaker were due primarily to what the Minister has just referred to as the loose administration that prevailed and to the fact that the caretaker's working hours were not explicitly laid down. However, in view of the Minister's assurance that some equitable arrangements would be arrived at to resolve the issue, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $9,124,620 for Head P ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $54,000,000 for Head P ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. Head Q -

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1100 of Subhead Code GA-01 of the Main Estimates. Instead of putting questions under different subheads in the Environment Ministry, I prefer the Minister to answer my questions under this subhead in order to save time. Sir, I would like to invite the Minister to visit a kampong and squatter area near Jalan Bukit Merah behind Chiang Teck School in my constituency and see for himself the living conditions of a few hundred families living there. The environment there is very unhygienic, numerous rubbish heaps are strewn all over, roofs are in very poor state and many houses are in a dilapidated state. Floods occur during inclement weather, sanitation and water supply are poor and there are many other environmental hazards. I understand that officials from the Environment Ministry have visited the place. I would like to know what action has been taken to improve the environment of the kampong. My next query is that wide publicity was recently given in the press that well known supermarkets in Orchard Road were fined for selling contaminated food. As a result, at the moment many of the workers at the food section of these supermarkets are wearing face masks. If contaminated food could be sold in these well known supermarkets, what would the situation be in other places? I think it would be even worse. What steps are being taken to check on shops and hawker stalls to ensure that the food they sell is not contaminated? could the Minister give some facts and figures on the number of stallholders that were convicted for this offence? Sometime ago an official instruction was issued to all food handlers that they have to use gloves and tongs when preparing the food. How successful has this instruction been carried out by the food handlers in the Republic? Could the Minister elaborate? 4.00 p.m. Sir, last year I queried about the resiting of hawkers in the Anson constituency to hawker centres. Arising out of this question, a debate arose between the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment and myself. One year has already passed and I should say that nothing has been done so far to build a hawker centre in my constituency. There are new buildings coming up. If the Minister does not take action this time, I cannot get the hawker centre. Why was my request not looked into? There is no point in debating in this House if we forget the whole issue after a debate. Would the Hawkers Department prefer that hawkers in the Anson constituency carry on business in backlanes and along the streets? We have seen many developments in Anson constituency, like road widening, building of flats, etc. But why does the Hawkers Department ignore the Anson constituency? Could the Minister explain? I would also like to know what measures are being taken by the Hawkers Department to see that hawkers do not unnecessarily jack up their prices when there is a demand for their food. This happens especially when there is usually a large crowd patronising them. Sir, what measures are being taken to see that our drains are properly flushed, so that water is flowing smoothly, and also thick lallang is trimmed in order to avoid mosquito breeding. It is common nowadays to find mosquitoes in housing estates, construction sites and even inside the hospital premises. Mosquitoes suck human blood, especially of children. What is the Vector Control Unit doing all this time? Are they really doing their job of controlling the breeding of mosquitoes? If the situation is not properly checked, we will not be surprised if an epidemic of haemorrhagic fever should arise.

( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also like to talk about the policy on hawkers. At present the Ministry of the Environment is resiting hawker stalls along the roadside to hawker centres. Of course, from the long term point of view, I support this move. At present, most of the hawker centres are sited in the HDB housing estates. Therefore, the more hawkers the Ministry resites, the more will they be concentrated in the HDB housing estates. The hawker centres under the Ministry of the Environment will then become fewer and fewer. One day the Ministry of the Environment will find that it has no more hawker centres to control. In other words, rules relating to the control of hawkers promulgated by the Ministry of the Environment will not be implemented by the Ministry itself. Instead, the task of control will be carried out by other departments. This is an irony in the process of development. I would like to ask whether the Ministry of the Environment will consider taking over hawker centres now under the charge of other departments, so as to unify the control and management of hawker centres. It will be beneficial to do so because, if someone wants to become a hawker and brings his problem to his Member of Parliament, the MP can advise him where to go to deal with the matter. At the moment the Ministry of the Environment has a department in charge of hawkers and the HDB also has a department in charge of hawker centres. When an applicant makes enquiries from the HDB Hawkers Department, the staff there will tell him to go to the Ministry of the Environment saying it is a matter which concerns the Ministry. And when the applicant enquires from the staff of the Ministry of the Environment, they in turn would also say that the applicant should go to the HDB Hawkers Department as such matters concern the HDB. I would not like to say that they are passing the buck, but it is certainly an irony. In the adjustment of hawkers' fees, hawkers under the Ministry of the Environment have to pay their fees once in three months, whereas the HDB hawkers have to pay once a month including stamp fees. This is a contradiction and will cause some dispute. Let me give another example. In certain areas hawker centres under the charge of the Ministry are rather old because the building have a longer history. Hawker centres in the HDB estates are rather new and better designed. There will be disputes because the Ministry of the Environment does not have enough money to spend on the control and management of hawker centres: so it is much the worse off. On the other hand, the HDB has all the funds for the building and care of hawker centres. This divergent situation may aggravate matters, and if allowed to continue, it would not be good for all concerned. I would like to ask whether it would not be advisable to set up a unified and comprehensive hawker department comprising representatives from both the Ministry of the Environment and the HDB so as to centralise and facilitate the control and management of all hawkers. Otherwise as at the moment certain matters concern both the departments while certain other matters do not concern either of them because there is confusion as to the division of responsibility or line of control. Hawker problems are many and complicated; they belong to a class all by itself. Just as people in the middle income group are faced with the question of owning cars and the question of commuting, people in the lower income group are faced with the problem of hawker licence and related matters. They have now become a social problem of equal importance. In view of the fact that different hawker centres are administered differently, I am therefore making this suggestion to the Ministry of the Environment to have a unified and centralised hawker controlling authority to deal with hawker problems in a comprehensive way.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I take this opportunity to mention a few points regarding hawkers in Singapore and why they have become a very important topic to Members of Parliament. The main reason is that we received many requests for hawker stalls during our "Meet the people" sessions. There have also been requests for transfer of stalls from less rewarding spots to places where there is more business. Quite frequently we are very disappointed because we find that we are in a very helpless position to assist our constituents. If out of 10 applicants we are able to help one of them, we should thank our lucky stars. We tend to look very sympathetically at our constituents' problems because we know the futility of the exercise. This is compounded by the fact that in Singapore today we do have an increasing number of elderly citizens who for some reason or another are not able to get some form of employment. It is very easy to say, "Why do you not depend on your savings or the CPF?" But the CPF and savings are probably a very new concept in the last decade or so. Many elderly people do have a tremendous social and financial problem. One of the most obvious avenues would be to apply for a hawker stall. That would give them a lot of opportunity to earn some income and to continue with their simple way of life, and perhaps to help their young children. The issue is fairly important. It is not just a question of applying for a hawker stall and getting one. There is a great paraphernalia of social implications. We therefore like the Ministry of the Environment to consider the larger issue of liberalising the issue of hawker licences and perhaps to plan ahead, I wonder if the Minister can inform the House what plans his Ministry has for the future. Every time we file an application on behalf of our constituents, there comes the standard reply, "Your family income has exceeded so much." It was $150 for a total family income about a year ago. Following a request in the Budget session last year, I was told that the total family income had been increased to about $400. But a $400-income today in Singapore for a total family is a very small sum. Some families do have children who might earn $400 but who hardly take home $50 or perhaps nothing. Elderly folks do need some form of assistance. We do not want them to run to the Department of Social Welfare. Many of them do not want to do that either. They say that they want an honest living - they just want to be given a chance. I will take this opportunity to implore the Minister to consider the wider implications here. The conditions for the issue of hawker licences include the following. On the top of the list are clearance cases; secondly, street hawkers. Fairly down the list are cases of poverty and public assistance recipients. Sir, could I find out from the Minister, just for information, what is the total hawker population, how many cases need to be resettled, and how many hawker stalls would be available during the next five years. If we have these figures we will know how many new hawkers can be issued with licences, and we can therefore advise our constituents accordingly.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I would like to add to the comments of the Member for Kim Seng in respect of the conditions under which hawker licences may be issued. The concept of a family income has often imposed severe hardship on the applicants or the families concerned. If the income is earned by two or three different members of a family, and the total family income is $400, they may be factory workers. To begin with, their take-home pay is small. Furthermore, there is the presumption that these children are filial and that they will provide the family with enough sustenance. But, Sir, I have come across people, especially old people, who came to me in tears and say, "Look, on paper, I have a very high family income. But in actual fact I have so little because my children are not filial." I think the Hawkers Department should give special consideration to these people and not reject their applications outright. 4.15 p.m. The other point I have to raise concerns the recent huge increases in rentals for hawker licence fees affecting hawkers in Whampoa and other constituencies. There are three categories of hawkers who appear to me to have been unfairly treated. One category refers to cooked food hawkers in Whampoa who had their rents increased from $25 per month to $60 per month, an increase of 140%. Unfortunately, many people seem to think that all cooked food hawkers are prosperous like those at Orchard Road car park. This is certainly not the case. I have seen many instances of such hawkers in Whampoa struggling hard to make a living, and now the increased rental has caused them further hardship. Another category of hawkers who suffered greatly are the piece-and-sundry vendors who had their rents raised from $20 per month to $50 per month, a 150% increase. I had a case recently of a widow who is selling textiles at Raymon Market. She came to me in tears saying that she was barely able to make ends meet. Perhaps the Minister concerned should visit such markets so that he can appreciate the smallness of the stall with its consequently extremely limited area for display of such items as textile goods. Moreover, there is plenty of competition in the market in question for such goods and elsewhere so that not only is the turnover small but margins of profit are also very thin. A third category of hawkers who have been badly affected are those who occupy the small cubicles on the first floor of St. Michael's Estate market. I understand there are markets elsewhere which have the same problem. These hawkers occupy areas ranging from 11.1 square metres to 14.8 square metres. Since the standard fee is for stalls up to 10 square metres, they end up paying double the rental. For example, for piece-and-sundry hawkers in the upper floor of St. Michael's Estate market, the increase was from $20 per month to $150 per month, a fantastic increase. For preserved and dried goods, the increase was from $60 per month to $135 per month. This is patently unfair. Why can the Hawkers Department not pro-rate the charges, i.e. if the rate is for 10 square metres, then every square metre in excess of 10 square metres should be charged at a rate which is the rental divided by 10 square metres times the increased number of square metres. In any case, the increase in the basic rental rate is already exorbitant enough. A further point I wish to make refers to the classification of markets and cooked food centres as either Class A or Class B. Members are aware that Class A markets attract higher rentals than Class B. Would the Minister concerned tell us, first of all, what is the basis of classification and, secondly, how many markets and cooked food centres are in each category; and thirdly, why should the market and hawker centres in Whampoa constituency suffer the classification of Class A?

Sir, I have an amendment standing in my name, i.e. amendment No. (4) on the subject of hawkers. Can I speak now, Sir?

Yes, carry on.

Sir, the present ruling is that hawker licences will be issued only to those people aged between 40 and 60 years. Yet in my meet-the-people sessions, there are many persons over the age of 60, who are fit and who have difficulty in getting alternative employment, coming to see me and asking if I could help them to get a hawker's licence. Obviously, if they are over 60 years old it is not possible at this time. May I ask the Hon. Minister to consider granting hawker licences to such people if they are medically fit. Secondly, in Telok Blangah estate there are vacant stalls in the hawker centre. When I inquired into the reasons for these vacancies, I was told that itinerant hawkers were supposed to move into these vacant stalls but they have refused to do so. This is rather unfair to those hawkers who are already in the centre because it is a chicken and egg situation. The members of the public are not patronising this hawker centre because there are not enough hawkers plying their trade, and hawkers are not moving in because members of the public are not patronising the place. May I suggest that there should be strict enforcement of the rules on those hawkers who refuse to move in. After having been allocated stalls in the hawker centre, if they refuse to move in, then their licence fee should be increased on an escalation basis. If after a period of time they still refuse to move into the hawker centre, then their licences should be cancelled and given to more deserving cases.

Sir, I will reply to the Gentleman from Anson and leave my strong-arm hatchetman to deal with the radicals from Henderson, Kim Seng, Whampoa and Telok Blangah. I cannot run away from one point which is the criteria for the issue of a hawker's licence. Members say $400 family income is too little. We have not been very inelastic. After we heard Members last year it was raised from $250 to $400. So after we hear Members this year perhaps it will be raised again. But we will give it every consideration.

Is that an assurance?

I assure Members that we will give it every consideration. Members must remember that even the HDB has this combined income limit ruling, where if a person wants to rent a flat, his combined family income should not exceed $500, and if he wants to purchase a flat. his combined family income should not exceed $1,500. Now there is pressure to increase these combined income limits which I find reasonable because with inflation money is not worth much these days. But I am not the Minister for National Development any more. My Parliamentary Secretary will reply to the points raised by other Members. I will reply to Mr Anson! He grumbles about this kampong near Jalan Bukit Merah. He says it is dirty and full of mosquitoes. It is not only a kampong. It is a squattered area. Hence the difficulties that we meet. As such, the environmental conditions are not as good as, say, in Marine Parade, Whampoa, Queenstown or Telok Blangah. I am not running down kampongs. There are kampongs which are clean. But this one is heavily squattered. Though we go in and clean the dirt, carry the rubbish, sweep the place, it is still dirty. The only hope is redevelopment and resettlement. But unfortunately this little kampong is affected by a slip road of the Pan Island Expressway. So until that Expressway is built, nothing else would be allowed to be built in this kampong. As for supermarkets, my Ministry has been active in the promotion of hygienic handling and preparation of food, not only at supermarkets but also at hawker centres. Recently, some supermarkets have received adverse publicity. But let me assure the Member that we are not anti-supermarkets or pro-smaller establishments. Both types of eating houses or places where food is sold are recei0ing the attention of the Ministry. Between July and December 1977, whilst only 13 prosecutions concerned supermarkets, 423 other prosecution cases involved food handlers in hawker centres, restaurants and other eating establishments. We have had our campaigns. In 1975, there was the "Better Food for Better Health" campaign, and in 1974 a mini campaign on food hygiene. Bad habits die hard, and therefore we must continue with our public health education and enforcement if they go against the law. The next point that worries the Member every year is his hawker centre. Members will recall that last year the Member asked for a hawker centre. And when my Parliamentary Secretary replied that there were no plans for a hawker centre in Anson, this led to a clash. Let me assure the Member that the lack of progress in the building of this hawker centre is not due to any discrimination against Anson or lack of effort on our part. It is still very difficult to find a suitable site for a centre in the close vicinity of the hawkers in the Anson Constituency. But I assure the Member that my Ministry will continue to liaise with the URA and the HDB to see whether a hawker centre can be incorporated in one of their projects within the constituency. As for price control, we require hawkers and stallholders to display prices of goods and foodstuffs sold. But it is not considered desirable for the department to control prices for the different commodities and foodstuffs. If Members think some stalls are charging them through the nose, I would suggest that they avoid those stalls. The Member complains of mosquito breeding. I remember other Members complaining when the Member for Geylang West was the Minister for Health.

That was a long time ago!

The mosquitoes are still with us. We are doing our best to control the diseases that are caused by -mosquitoes: dengue fever, malaria. Members may be interested in the figures. Since the last outbreak of dengue haemorrhagic fever in 1973, Singapore has escaped two large epidemics which swept through the region. Last year, there were only 92 cases of dengue haemorrhagic fever. As far as malaria is concerned, there were 184 cases last year. This is the lowest for the last 15 years. Members should not be over concerned about the 184 cases. I keep a constant eye every week on the cases of malaria, typhoid fever and dengue haemorrhagic fever. Every week in Singapore there are about five to seven cases of malaria, but nearly all are imported. Being an international centre, we are exposed. People come in and go out. They bring in malaria. We have to be constantly on our guard to see that malaria does not spread. In this direction we are doing our best. 4.30 p.m. As for mosquito breeding, we are doing our best too. Last year we carried out 354,000 inspections for mosquito breeding throughout the island - in residential houses, flats, estates, hospitals, factories and construction sites. Of these, nearly 7,000 places were found to be breeding mosquitoes. Notices were issued to warn people to stop breeding mosquitoes and, where these notices were ignored, prosecutions were commenced. I will leave it to my Parliamentary Secretary to deal in detail with the "complaints", if I may use the word, of the other Members.

( In Mandarin): Sir, first, allow me to reply to the Member for Henderson about his problems. He said that, if possible, the Government should unify the administration of hawker control to enable the Ministry of the Environment to take over hawker centres from the HDB or other departments so as to centralise the management. I say that at the moment we have no intention to take over HDB hawkers or hawker centres under the control of statutory boards. We also have no such plans to take over in the future. As regards the unification of management of hawkers, in the past two years we have set up a Hawkers' Licensing Coordination Committee so that the policies formulated would be uniform. He has also mentioned about the different periods of building these markets and hawker centres and also the disparity in the maintenance of some of them. In Jalan Membina, the hawker centre was built in the 1960s. Of course, comparing it with those built in the 1970s this hawker centre must be different, both in structure and facilities. This goes to show that we are improving upon the building and facilities of hawker centres. At different times there should be different types of hawker centres. On the other hand, because of changing circumstances the requirements at that time were different from the requirements for a hawker centre today. At that time the hawkers at hawker centres were mainly selling daily necessities such as fish and meat. But when we build a new market today to house them, we have to provide storage space to accommodate such trades. At the particular market in question, we have 118 stalls. There is also provision for 40 cooked food stalls and in the hawker centre, there are eight stalls in the large compound selling sundry goods. As and when a stall in the cooked food centre is vacated, we gradually move in those stalls which are located outside at the moment. On the matter of unification of policy and the implementation thereof, I would say that they are now uniform. As regards differences in rentals, there is still no arrangement to standardise rentals. Hawkers under the Ministry of the Environment are under a licensing scheme, These hawkers have to pay hawker licence fees once in three months. Under the HDB, however, they have to pay rentals. So these are two different schemes. Arising tom the adjustment of rentals last year, hawkers under the HDB or other statutory boards have to pay, on renewal of their lease agreement, new rates of stamp fees. We have liaised with those statutory boards and the HDB. The stamp fee is required upon the renewal of the rental agreement for a period of three years. However, the stamp fee is payable only in the first year, and for the remaining two years they are not required to pay any stamp fee. The Member for Henderson also said that we are driving away the hawkers tom the roadside. Actually we are not driving them away. What we are trying to do is to move them from the roadside into covered markets and hawker centres. If he uses the term "drive them away", the literal meaning in Chinese gives a wrong impression and a wrong meaning. Here, I would like to clarify that we are resiting them to a more proper site and location. - In other words, it is a matter of resettlement. Next, I will answer the points raised by the Member for Kim Seng. Some of the points had been raised in the past. My Minister has already answered them just now, for example, hardship cases will be considered compassionately. In hardship cases, the income ceiling has been raised from $250 to $400 last year. This income criterion is based on four members in a family. In a family of five, six or seven members, then the calculation will be different. So we have adopted a flexible way of calculating or computing the family income. In the case of stallholders who have asked for permission to change stalls or to change his trade, we always try to accommodate their request but within certain constraints. If they cannot satisfy those conditions, we have to reject their request. So far as market stallholders are concerned, approval of a change of stall, commodities or goods to be sold, or transfer to other markets, will depend on the vacancies available in the neighbouring markets, or whether such vacancies are reserved for the resettlement of hawkers affected by development projects. But generally, if there are vacancies available in any market or centre we will accommodate their request for a transfer or a change of stalls. That is what I mean by "satisfying the conditions". The Member also wishes to know what plans there are to build markets over the next few years, how many hawker stalls will be available, and how many hawkers have been resettled from the streets to markets and food centres. Sir, in the next five years, that is, from 1978 to 1982, the Government has plans to build 37 more markets and food centres, with a total number of more than 7,300 stalls. These markets and food centres will be constructed mostly in Housing Board estates or housing estates of statutory boards. In so far as street hawkers are concerned, we found out that there are about 8,700 hawkers plying on the streets. Over the past few years, the number of street hawkers resettled into markets and centres amounted to 19,300. They have been resettled from the streets to markets or hawker centres or other designated areas. As regards hardship cases applying for hawker licences, in the processing of such cases the Hawkers' Department or the MP must always realise that it is a difficult case to handle because those who satisfy the conditions and regulations can always go to the Housing Board offices or the Hawkers Department to apply for hawker stalls on the 1st to the 14th of each month. Some of these applicants think that if they make application through the Member of Parliament they will be able to get better stalls or given priority or an opportunity to choose stalls of their choice. i do not think we can satisfy such conditions of application. Furthermore, many of these people who claim hardship do not have the adequate capital or adequate experience in the business. Although stalls have been allotted to them, they will either wait for six months to apply for a transfer, or just do not do any business at all. They will never attempt to commence their business. They only want to get their stalls first and then wait for an opportune time to apply for transfer to a better place where they think they can do a better business. This is another difficulty facing us at the moment. Many of them think that hawking is a profitable business. It is not everybody who can adjust his life to that of a hawker. 4.45 p.m. Sir, the Member for Whampoa also has raised certain points regarding hawkers. One was the question of hardship cases which I have already answered in general, and I do not want to go further than that. Next, he took up the matter of increase of rental by two- or three-fold. He said just now that the calculation of rentals was based on a minimum of 10 square metres, that if it was more than 10 square metres the rental would be doubled. This is only an administrative arrangement. The Member also asked whether we can work out on a pro-rate basis. I think we have administrative difficulties here because we have different sizes of hawker stalls. When it comes to the collection of hawker licence fees and rentals, it is difficult to administrate because of the wide variation in the size of the stalls. If stallholders feel that they are unable to pay the rentals or licence fees, perhaps we can ask them to consider a transfer to a smaller stall within the same market or to another market in his own constituency or in another constituency. This is something that we can do to solve their problem, The next point raised by the Member for Whampoa is the lack of classification of A and B for collection of fees. Sir, there is a long history to this classification of A and B. I have been attached to the Ministry for the Environment for quite some time. I think older Members in this House still recollect that we have inherited this classification from the former City Council which practised classification of markets into not only A and B but also C and D. Since the present Government took over the functions and responsibilities of Local Government and the City Council which were disbanded, we have gradually simplified and unified the administration, as far as possible. In the sixties we also abolished C and D classifications. Later in 1970, for the sake of easier administration, we set up a special committee. In the implementation of recommendations of the special committee, licence fees were further simplified, leaving the classifications of A and B applicable to any area whether it is in the city, rural, or suburban areas. Any hawker centre built after 1970 would be classified as A, and those small markets built before 1970 would be classified under B. That is how we arrived at this classification of A and B. The Member for Telok Blangah has also raised several matters regarding hawkers in the Ministry of the Environment. He referred to the age limit imposed on applicants for hawker licences i.e. between the ages of 40 and 60 years. He was saying that people who are more than 60 years old and physically fit should also be considered. We are looking into this matter. We have imposed this age limit to deter able-bodied young people who refuse to go into productive employment, from applying for hawker licences in the names of their elders for their own benefit. Of course, if there are cases of people who are more than 60 years old but are physically fit and they are widows or widowers and do not have other people to support them, we will give them special consideration. But I think the age limit of 40 to 60 years is still a sound and valid restriction insofar as we want to prevent younger people from making use of the names of their elders to apply for licences. As regards the choice or option to be given to resettlement cases, I think we have been giving these people three options as far as possible. And we also give them more than three hawker centres or markets to choose from. Not only that, we also allow these stallholders to change their trade or the goods or food to be sold. But there must be a time limit for them to exercise this option. Otherwise administratively we will find it difficult to implement our policy. Sir, from experience over the past few years we realise that granting a stall to someone is not the end to his problem. It is really not so simple. We have come to know that certain stallholders keep on asking for a change of stalls from time to time. At present in the Telok Blangah constituency there are three markets under the HDB. There are a total of 555 to 560 stalls with 69 vacancies. This is because the neighbouring hawkers have already moved into shophouses and so they do not need the stalls in the markets. These vacancies are now open to applicants who can satisfy the conditions. Any interested member of the public in the Telok Blangah constituency, in the age group of 40 and 60 years, can always go to the Housing Board office to apply for a hawker stall in the market. Talking about complaints of poor business in certain markets, including the few that we have just mentioned, from our past experience I would say that in new markets normally a certain period of time must be allowed to build up business. In other words, initially the business may not be very good. The main reason is that in the new markets, although we have provided as large and wide a variety of stalls and facilities as possible some hawkers do not want to be pioneers in new markets. They would rather wait for other hawkers to move in first and then they will move in later. As a result of this wait-and-see attitude, the range of goods on offer is less than complete, as originally planned. Therefore residents also do not like to patronise the market. This is one of the problems that we are facing, but I believe that after some time when the flats are fully occupied business in the new market will improve. Sir, here I would like to touch on the lack of initiative and dynamism on the part of hawkers themselves in recent years. Unlike the past, hawkers then were very hardworking, dynamic and full of drive. The hawkers at present are not so dynamic and they lack the pioneering spirit and the drive to survive. In spite of all the facilities provided by the Government like better sites and environment, they do not take full advantage of them. They only know how to complain about lack of facilities and find fault with many things. They are not doing anything to improve their business such as providing better service in order to attract more customers. They are not so dynamic and they lack initiative. They depend on the Government or Members of Parliament to do many things for them. This attitude of dependence is very undesirable. If we allow it to develop, in the long run it will be detrimental to themselves, and it will also not do the country any good. I would like to take this opportunity to appeal to our hawkers to brace their efforts and learn from the pioneering spirit of the older generation of hawkers the way to struggle and strive to improve their business instead of depending on the Government or the Members of Parliament to improve their business for them. These are the points I wish to raise in reply.

Sir, I do not think the hon. Senior Parliamentary Secretary has answered my question. He has touched on something which I did not ask. I asked about the itinerant hawkers, that is, those who are now on the streets, who have been allocated hawker stalls. He says that they do not have the pioneering spirit and that they do not want to move in first, and this is causing poor business for those who have already moved in. He also said that there are 69 empty stalls in Telok Blangah market. But many other hawkers have moved in, and half the market is still empty. So unless we can get the hawkers to move into the market, the business will not pick up. The Ministry must be prepared to take enforcement action against those who do not want to move into the market. Their licence fee could be increased on an escalation basis. If they still do not want to move in, then cancel their licences and give them to someone else. Then we can fill up all the stalls in the market. If there are no street hawkers, the people will go to the. market. There will then be better business. 5.00 p.m.

( In Mandarin): Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah says that I have not replied to one of his points, the itinerant hawkers. On the other hand, I think I have already answered him about the vacancies in the markets. According to the statistics, there are 69 vacancies. But he says that half the market is empty. I have already said just now that every new market is provided, as far as possible, with stalls offering a wide and complete range of goods or commodities. But these hawkers do not want to be pioneers in the business. To put it even more bluntly, they do not want to be scapegoats where they have to sacrifice business in the early stages. They expect other hawkers to draw in business for them so that when business is good, they will then come in. As a result of this attitude we have a lot of vacancies in the new markets. In such an event, we notice that, after a short time, the Housing Board will also adopt the same practice, i.e. if a hawker does not move in within a month, a notice will be sent to him and if, after three reminders the hawker still does not move in, then his stall will be withdrawn and allocated to another person who needs it. The Government's policy on itinerant hawkers or outdoor hawkers is that we hope in the next five years to be able to resettle all street hawkers and outdoor hawkers, whether they be food hawkers, fish and meat hawkers or sundry goods hawkers. We want to resettle them into designated markets or food centres within the next five years. Gradually the number of these itinerant or outdoor hawkers will decrease until they disappear from the roads. I hope the Member will be satisfied with my answer now.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I respond to a few points raised by the Senior Parliamentary Secretary? He made the point that there are some poor people who, even if given licences, may not have the capital to set up business as hawkers. I hope he will not use this as an excuse to deny the poor people hawker licences. In any case, he need have no fear about such would-be hawkers who come from Whampoa, because we do have a welfare fund. We can make loans to such hawkers. I know that several of my colleagues also have established similar funds. Then he made the point in reference to the stallholders occupying cubicles on the first floor of St. Michael's Estate market. I complained that those occupying more than 10 square metres, or specifically from 11.1 to 14.8 square metres, were made to pay double the rent, and in view of the great increase in the rental, they were made to pay an exorbitant amount. There was a jump from $20 to $150 a month. On this, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has made a curious point that he finds it administratively difficult to calculate on the basis of so many square metres. I do not have a calculator with me here. But I did a little bit of calculation while he was speaking. For 11 square metres it works out to $82.50 instead of $150 per month; for 15 square metres it works out to $102 instead of $150 per month. This can be worked out by any clerk, indicate it on the licence, and every month all that the poor hawker has to do is to pay the fee indicated on the licence. Where is the administrative difficulty? I think he is evading the issue. Then he suggested that perhaps those who are in this unfortunate position could transfer to smaller stalls in the same market or in other markets. It so happens that they cannot be transferred within the same market because there are no stalls which are less than 10 square metres. The Senior Parliamentary Secretary should appreciate that there are difficulties in a transfer. First of all, the hawker has to move away from an environment which he has been used to, the clientele that he has built up would be lost, and there is also the proximity to home. Furthermore, the expenses of moving. And not least of all will be additional stamp duty which will be imposed for the change of a licence. He also made a very curious remark about the hawkers being less dynamic than before. I fail to see what he means. Is he referring to hawkers roaming lustily in the streets? Obviously they cannot roam any more because he has confined them and therefore they are not dynamic. That is agreed. If he means that they should be able to change their location, forget it, because they are again similarly confined. If they happen to be in a poorly located hawker centre or market, that's it for them so far as their business is concerned. If he means that they can improve their business by building more car parks in proximity to the hawker centres, they are not in a position to do so. The land does not belong to them. They therefore have to have recourse to the Member of Parliament, the hapless MP that is. These hawkers are resourceful people. They are politically alive and they seek the MP because there is no other recourse.

Lower the price!

Furthermore, they are restricted by regulations. If they so much as put one box a few centimetres away from where they are supposed to put it, they are immediately served with a summons. And whom do they see? The hapless MP again. What is there to talk of the lack of dynamism? We would like to see a little more dynamic policy on the part of the Hawkers Department.

( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Whampoa has raised a few queries. First, he says that he has not got a calculator to calculate the rental for the few additional square metres, but he then calculated the figures manually. However, the present charges are calculated by computers. Bills are computerized and are sent out after calculations by the computer. It is not practical to adopt his method because of the varying sizes and different factors which would lead to mistakes and complications. Regarding a change of stalls, he has complained that this will increase their financial difficulties. But in the reality of our present society, I believe that whenever a person wants to make a living he will have to face certain difficulties. If he is unable to face them, it means that he would not be able to face the changed situation, society or environment. Therefore, if he is not willing to face the challenge of a new situation, to settle in a new environment, and instead he wants to stay put in his old place, then we will of course not object to his remaining in his present state. In passing, I would like to quote some comparative figures to show that our rentals and charges together with the arrangements are not giving the hawkers or the stallholders any difficulty at all. Perhaps some of them may face a certain amount of difficulty. Let me give an example. In the private sector, not to mention new shopping centres, the rental for stalls in coffee shops and eating house premises is charged at $400 or $500, or even up to $800 per month, for a small portion of about one-quarter or even less than one-quarter of the space in a coffee shop in a HDB housing estate. Yet they are still able to carry on their business very well. In HDB estates the fees or charges are merely a fraction of these and yet businessmen find it difficult to maintain their businesses. It is all due, as I have said, to a lack of the spirit to strive to do better for one's livelihood. How is it that hawkers in the private sector can make money whereas those mentioned by him cannot make a living or carry on with their business? It is a matter of the spirit to survive. If one has no dynamism in him, and if there is nothing for him to overcome or there is no challenge, then he will stagnate and his actions impaired. If there is no pressure on him, there will be no corresponding reaction. It is only natural. There is another point in my answer on which he is mistaken. He has said that I am against hawkers looking up their MPs for help. Indeed, it is just the contrary. But some MPs complained that we are passing the buck and make the MPs do the job of our Ministry. I tend to think that the people concerned can deal with their own problems relating to minor matters. It is not necessary for them every time to look up their Members of Parliament. If MPs, like the Member for Whampoa, are keen to help their constituents, of course, we welcome them to do so. Regarding the spirit of self-reliance and dynamism, we can all see that the present people engaged in various kinds of businesses, including hawking, are not imbued with the spirit to work hard and they lack the drive of the older generation. This is what everyone can see. Let me give another example. Why do we give double pay for work on Sundays? This is to make it easier to get people to work on Sundays. In the past it was easy to get a lot of people to work. But now, on Sundays or holidays, even with double pay or triple day, it is difficult to get the workers. When we ask these people why they do not want to work on Sundays or holidays in spite of the double pay offered, the answer is very simple. It comes as a great surprise, "If others do not have to work, why should I work? Am I a second class person?" That is the answer one gets today. This is the present trend. This is what I mean when I say that there is a lack of dynamism and a lack of a pioneering spirit that was obtained in the past. In the past, so long as there was some benefit to be gained, whether it was a holiday or not, people worked all the same.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to elaborate a little on the point brought up by the Member for Whampoa on the double rental on stalls or, as he calls them, cubicles above 10 square metres. I think the Member for Whampoa is very lucky if he has cubicles which are more than 10 square metres. In Kallang there are cubicles which are just over 40 square feet, that is less than 5 square metres. Under the revised rentals that were introduced last year, all those who occupied a second stall had to pay double rental on their second stall. In the early days the cubicles which were on the first floor of the markets had very poor business. Many stalls were not taken up. Some of the stallholders were therefore allowed to take a second stall to build up their business. Quite a few took advantage of this and hired two stalls. If rental for one stall was, say, $15 they had to pay $30 for the two stalls. Now, with the revised rentals, the rental on the first stall has gone up to $30 and on the second stall it is $60. So they are paying $90 for the two stalls for which they used to pay $30 previously. 5.15 p.m. The Senior Parliamentary Secretary has compared the rentals paid by these people with the rentals paid in the private coffee shops. I think I can equally show that the rentals that these hawkers have to pay are not very far from the kind of rentals that people in the big shopping centres are paying for the first, second or third floors. In many of these big shopping centres, rentals are based on per square foot basis and one pays a flat rental plus a charge for airconditioning. If we take away airconditioning, in many of these shopping centres, the rental is around $1.80 to $2 per square foot for the upper floors - and I am comparing this with the upper floors in the hawker centres. If we work out on a per square foot basis for these hawker cubicles, the rental also works out to about $1.80 to $2 per square foot. An hon. Member: That is right.

This is very high rental which most of the stallholders cannot afford to pay. I do not think it is administratively difficult to work out a system where a stallholder would pay the double rate only above a certain number of square feet. If he occupies two stalls or three stalls, and all these three stalls put together are still less than a hundred square feet, he should pay just the rental for two or three stalls and not be asked to pay a penal rate for the second or third stall. I do not know whether anybody has got a third stall. But I do know that in Kallang many of them have two stalls. For two stalls they have to pay a rate which is extremely high. Sir, I hope that the Ministry would reconsider this matter.

Sir, the penal rate was introduced to discourage hawkers from asking for larger stalls or for more than one stall. It is a pity Members complaining here did not raise these matters when I made a Ministerial Statement last year on the revision of fees. Now the fees have been implemented. Nearly a year has elapsed. But it does not mean to say that once implemented that is the end of the story. We will give representations every consideration except that it would have been better if Members had spoken up at the relevant time.

Sir, I just would like to refer to the point regarding the number of projected new stalls to be built in the next few years, and we were given figures by the Senior Parliamentary Secretary.

Dr Ong, may I remind you that there is an amendment on the Development Estimates regarding hawker centres. Maybe you could speak at that stage because it is now well past tea time.

I am raising this point purely because it is related to the Senior Parliamentary Secretary's answer.

You will have another opportunity to raise your matter.

Thank you, Sir. I will do that.

Mr P. Govindaswamy.

Sir, on the assurance given by the Minister on the hawker centre for Anson, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

I propose to take the Suspension now. Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Order. I suspend the Sitting and shall take the Chair again at 5.45 p.m. Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.19 p.m. until 5.45 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.45 p.m.

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

Head Q (cont) -

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code QB-02 of the Main Estimates. Sir, the bin centres in HDB estates are atrocious. Putrefied food and rubbish exposed to the elements night and day risk the health of all those living in these areas. I am sure the Hon. Minister is concerned with the health of Singaporeans. In quite a few more years, the greater portion of our citizens will be living in HDB flats and health conditions must be carefully monitored. I know the fault does not lie with the Ministry of the Environment but with the HDB as it is responsible for the cleanliness of the bin centres and the areas surrounding HDB flats, the hawker and market stalls and grounds and drains around them. Has the HDB been given stern warnings by the Ministry of the Environment? If these warnings fell on deaf ears, prosecution might be the only answer. What action will the Hon. Minister consider to ensure clean and healthy HDB estates, free from putrefaction and choked drains resulting in acrid stench?

Sir, the HDB builds houses for the people. The Ministry of the Environment staff sees that the place is clean. The Member for Potong Pasir wants my Ministry to prosecute the HDB for, he says, uncleanliness. The situation in HDB flats is this. The refuse bin centre is operated and maintained by the HDB. But the Ministry of the Environment removes refuse from the bin centres daily. The bin centre is supposed to be cleaned and washed by HDB workmen daily. When complaints are received that cleanliness is lacking, officers of my Ministry carry out joint inspections with the estate officer for the area and takes remedial action. To say that the drains and the place are unclean does not mean that it is entirely the fault of the HDB. What about the people living in the flats? The common complaint is the throwing of rubbish from the top floor down to the others. Instead of prosecuting the HDB if warnings are not observed, we would rather persuade, and we work closely with the HDB in an effort to provide a cleaner and brighter home for the people. Sir, garbage stinks and sometimes left in the sun to rot, it stinks even more. But they should clean the place daily. If the Member has any complaints of a particular estate or a block in an estate, we will look into it, An hon. Member: Lorong 8!

I promise the Member that if the indiscriminate dumping of refuse and littering continues, we will have to take tougher action than mere persuasion. That action will be against the litter bugs.

Does the Hon. Minister mean the litter bugs are the HDB? Then because the HDB is responsible for the cleanliness, most certainly it has to ensure that this cleanliness is maintained?

Cleanliness of what? If it is the garbage site, I say yes. The Environment Ministry moves the rubbish, and if the place is unclean, the HDB is at fault. But if the drains are dirty, if the place is littered, surely it is not the HDB. The HDB does its best to clean the drains. If the drains are clean and the place is littered again, surely we should take action against the litter bugs who, in that case, will not be the HDB.

Sir, I believe that the Hon. Minister is going to take action against both the people who litter and the HDB if it does not maintain cleanliness. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment, Amendment by leave, withdrawn. 5.52 p.m.

( In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code QB-03 of the Main Estimates, Sir, I would like the Minister to pay attention to this matter. In Jalan Ulu Sembawang and the housing estates in Naval Base area, the public health environment has been deteriorating in recent months. For instance, wild weeds and lallang have been allowed to grow at random on the roadsides and the drains are choked. Rain water cannot flow freely, so that mosquitoes and flies are breeding there, thus affecting adversely the health of the residents. I remember about a year ago in view of the complaints by the residents, together with public health officers and CCC members of Sembawang Constituency I inspected the various places concerned. I found that in certain housing estates in the Naval Base area around certain roads like Canberra Road, Admiralty Road and Jalan Ulu Sembawang, lallang and wild weeds were growing in abundance. After the inspection, the situation improved. But soon after, the same situation arose. So I would like to urge the Minister to take immediate steps to send inspectors and officers to those areas to take effective measures to improve upon the health situation there for the benefit of the residents.

Sir, my Ministry provides daily cleansing services for public roads and ancillary drains, including those in the Naval Base area. But kampong roads, like Jalan Ulu Sembawang, are not covered by the daily cleansing service, though inspections are made from time to time and, when necessary, cleansing of such private roads or drains is carried out. It may be necessary to review the extension of public cleansing services to private metalled roads such as Jalan Ulu Sembawang. That means more money and you know where I have to go.

( In Mandarin): Sir, the Minister has said that he will consider extending public cleansing service to areas like Jalan Ulu Sembawang to maintain the public health there. If he can do so, it would be of benefit to the residents living in those areas. Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave withdrawn,

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of item 8101 of Subhead Code QB-02 of the Development Estimates. Sir, in moving this amendment which concerns the Refuse Incineration Plant at Toh Tuck Road, I recall the reply of the Minister of State to the Prime Minister's Office, as contained in Hansard Vol 35, col. 1073, which says: The incinerator at Toh Tuck Road is expected to be completed by early 1979 and costs about $85 million. It has taken quite some time already for the building of this refuse incineration plant. The original cost was $75.35 million and revised up to $85.1 million. If the provision for FY 78 of $36 million is included, it would add up to something like $72.7 million. I would like to seek elaboration from the Hon. Minister concerned as to the progress so far in respect of the construction of this refuse incineration plant and whether it will be completed in 1979, and what is its capacity? 6.00 p.m.

The Member for Punggol has given me most of the facts, but I assure him that the incinerator will be completed by the end of this year. It will have a maximum incineration capacity of 1,200 tons of refuse a day. It will have three boilers which will produce steam to generate 11 megawatts electricity. The plant itself will consume 3 Mw power and the balance will be sold to the PUB. The Member is right in saying that the cost is approximately $85 million, part of which has been obtained through a loan ($25 million) from the IBRD. It will have three electrostatic filters and a 150 metre chimney which is already up, costing about $6 million, to ensure that the flue gases meet the stringent standards set by the Anti-Pollution Unit. Perhaps the Member is more concerned about the Tampines dumping ground. At present about 2,000 tons of refuse are disposed of at Tampines and Lim Chu Kang dumping grounds. Even when the incineration plant is in operation, I am sorry to inform the Member, that we will still have to continue dumping refuse in Tampines.

Sir, I have one other observation to make, and that is, to what extent will this incineration plant pollute the air and whether any effective measures to minimise the air pollution have been looked into?

Sir, as I have said, there are three electrostatic filters with a 150 metre chimney, and as the Prime Minister is in charge of the Anti-Pollution Unit, the Member can be sure that the Ministry of the Environment will not pollute the atmosphere.

Sir, I thank the Minister for his kind assurance, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (6), Mr Ho is not here. Dr Ong.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head O be reduced by $10 in respect of item 8101 of Subhead Code QB-05 of the Development Estimates. Sir, earlier on in the debate, under Subhead Code QA-01, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment quoted figures for the projected number of new markets and available hawker stalls for the next five years. He said that more than 7,000 new stalls will be available for the next five years. At the same time he also mentioned that there are still more than 8,000 hawkers in the streets and clearance cases needed to be resettled. This means that just to resettle the 8,000-plus hawkers, we are still short of a thousand stalls. Does that mean, therefore, that new applicants for hawker stalls will have no chance of being allocated a stall? I would be most grateful if he could explain this point, and whether new applicants will have ample opportunity to be considered for stall allocation.

Sir, I beg your indulgence to speak now so that I will not have to move my amendment No. (7)

Yes, Mr Ng.

Sir, I wish to make two points on the Development and Improvement to Market and Hawker Sites. To me, the provision of $1.16 million for FY 78 compares very poorly with the estimated provision of $4.5 million for FY 77. Sir, if I can refresh the memory of the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment, in his reply last year, as contained in Hansard Vol. 36, column 1205, 'and I quote "... if the Member concerned can propose a suitable site we will make a serious study of his proposal." I raised this question of building a hawker centre in the vicinity of Punggol Estate which now has a population of more than 3,000 families. Although there is already a small market-cum-hawker centre, this small market has only about 165 stalls and 30 cooked food stalls. These 30 cooked food stalls are hardly sufficient to cater to the needs of the flat dwellers in the estate as there is a clear trend today for flat dwellers to go to hawker centres for their meals. When I raised this proposal last year, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary requested me to propose a site. I have made that proposal and now look forward to his kind consideration of my proposal.

( In Mandarin): Sir, first of all, I would like to explain the point raised by the Member for Kim Seng. He said that in my reply, I mentioned that there are about 8,000 street hawkers in Singapore and that the next five years we would have only 7,000 new stalls, a number which is inadequate to accommodate the existing 8,000 hawkers. My explanation will be useful to Members in this House. In terms of numbers, of course, we will be shod of 1,000 stalls. But, in actual fact, there are vacancies which are not included in the 7,000 proposed stalls to be built over the next five years. Some of the resettlement cases, will be offered to take up the existing vacancies. That is one explanation. Furthermore, in the case of new licences, they will be allotted according to the zones. From our experience, applicants are not prepared to go to any market where there are vacancies. Most of them prefer to take up stalls in their neighbourhood. So, if a new market is to accommodate the resettled hawkers, then the vacancies available will normally be offered to applicants living in that neighbourhood. So in terms of numbers we are short whereas in actual fact we may not be short, and if there is any shortage it will not be significant. New applicants will therefore have a chance of getting their stalls. Next, let me answer the point raised by the Member for Punggol. He said that last year during the debate on the budget in this House he had proposed a certain site to the Ministry of the Environment to set up a food centre. He said that in that Housing Board estate the shops were selling mainly sundry goods and groceries, so there was a need for cooked food stalls to cater for the residents living there. In terms of planning, the various departments concerned always liaise with one another in order to avoid duplication and waste of resources in the construction of markets and food centres. The Housing and Development Board now has plans to develop Punggol New Town in his constituency. His proposal and recommendation of a food centre have been considered and incorporated in the new plan, that is to say, when the new town is built the food centre will be built within the town itself.

I wish to thank the Senior Parliamentary Secretary for his reply, but he has still refrained from giving the actual number of stalls that will be available for the new applicants. Could I ask him if he could give a figure? Will the new applicants be allotted 1,000, 2,000 or 50% of the new stalls to be constructed?

( In Mandarin): Sir, I do not have the figures in hand but I can just mention in passing that we have made provision for this arrangement, i.e. in the newly constructed market where he is concerned, we will reserve 5% of the stalls for priority allocation for hardship cases.

( In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to supplement the views expressed by the Member for Kim Seng. Following the increase of population in the new housing estates, I think food centres and markets are something we cannot do without, since they have become an integral part of the life of Singapore. So in the next three to five years there will be an increasing demand for hawker centres and markets. I would like to ask the Senior Parliamentary Secretary this question. After the resettlement of street hawkers, will the Government consider plans for the construction of new hawker centres for the public to apply because we still have a lot of people in Singapore who have no other means but to depend on hawking for a livelihood? 6.15 p.m. Sir, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary also mentioned that consideration for hawker licences depends on the family income of the applicant. For instance, a family of four with a total income of $400 will be considered. But, there are cases of widows or old people with young children or children doing national service. In the case of national service, unless the children are cadet officers, as privates they get a very small income of $90 to $100. In considering the ceiling of the family income, therefore, I wonder whether this small income of $90 to $100 from national service, which is just enough for transport and pocket expenses, can be disregarded in the computation of family income. In the case of widows who have young children, I think special consideration should be given on compassionate grounds, and that such small incomes should not be taken into consideration,

Sir, I would like to take up another point. I notice that the original cost of $7.5 million will be totally expended in FY 78. The Senior Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned just now that the Ministry will build some 37 markets. Obviously, Sir, there is an ever-increasing need for markets and hawker centres, bearing in mind that new towns will be developed. I would like to make an earnest request to the Minister concerned that he seeks more financial resources to meet this future need.

( In Mandarin): Sir, first of all, I would like to take this opportunity to answer the points raised by the Member for Mountbatten. He said that the income of national servicemen should be excluded from the total family income. Just now I mentioned that the family income is normally based on the total income of a family of four. If there are more than four members in the family, then of course the ceiling will be raised for the benefit of this large family. This is a more flexible way to calculate. As to whether or not the income of national servicemen should be included, of course, that will depend on the number of members in the family. If the family has six members then we will consider increasing the ceiling from $400 to a higher figure. In the case of widows and orphans, I have also mentioned that special consideration will be given to them. The second point raised by the Member was in the future plan for the construction of markets and food centres, which he says will be in greater demand. I have said earlier that the five-year plan makes provision for about 37 new markets and food centres. Priority of construction will be based on two criteria. One is the requirements of new housing estates. The other is the availability of a suitable site and where there is a congregation of hawkers. These are the two criteria that we will adopt in making a decision on the construction of new hawker centres and markets, The Member for Punggol has queried the inadequacy of the provision in the Development Estimates for the construction of hawker centres and markets. My answer is this. As I said, in the next few years, a lot of markets will be sited in Housing Board estates. Provisions for hawker centres and markets within these estates will be budgeted by the Housing and Development Board and not under the Ministry of the Environment. The figure given here is not very large because the expenses will be met by the Housing Board.

Sir, in view of the very patient reply from the hon. Senior Parliamentary Secretary, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, Amendment by leave, withdrawn. The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lee Yiok Seng -

Mr Lee Yiok Seng is not here. Amendment (9), Mr Ng Kah Ting.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code OD-02 of the Development Estimates. Sir, I must, first of all, compliment the hon. Minister when I notice that the allocation of $16.1 million for FY 77 has almost been used up. For FY 78 there need only be a revote of some $20,000 and the sum to be voted is $16,103 million. Sometime ago it was mentioned that if only we could conserve 10% of our rainfall by properly channelling this rainfall into the drains our water supply would be sufficient. As a result, this scheme of diverting dirty and sullage water into the sewers was implemented. In this respect, Sir, I would like to seek further elaboration from the Hon. Minister concerned as to how much water, with the completion of better drainage systems, etc., has been conserved through the drains and then treated into potable water?

Sir, water is precious. That is why the Chairman of the PUB is always asking us not only to save water but especially not to waste it. We have so much rainfall in Singapore that it would be a waste to see all this water going down our drains and canals into the seas. For this reason, certain catchments in Singapore have been earmarked as water catchments and the drains in these areas are so constructed that the storm water will flow directly into the reservoirs located within these catchments. Or if there are no reservoirs, the drains will channel the water to suitable points from which the water is eventually pumped into the reservoir. One such scheme is the Bukit Timah diversion canal near the Turf Club which can divert the flood waters from Bukit Timah to Ulu Pandan. This has served two purposes. It has alleviated flooding along Bukit Timah to a great extent, so much so we have not had a serious flood along that road since the canal was built. At the same time, one-third of the water along the canal is diverted to the Pandan reservoir. I believe Pandan reservoir is already in operation and supplies a few million gallons of water a day. Another such scheme is in Bedok where the drains have been constructed to channel rain water to suitable points near the Bedok reservoir. The Member may be interested to know that even the drains in the proposed Tampines New Town are being planned so that water can be subsequently pumped into the Bedok reservoir. One other place where a similar scheme with regard to water supply is concerned, is the Ang Mo Kio New Town. We get part of our water from Johore and, as far as it is possible, we intend to develop every source of water supply on the island that we can lay our hands on. We must do it. Water rationing last occurred in Singapore in 1963. I remember that in 1963 we consumed about 65 million gallons of water daily. Today it has gone up by double to about 130 million gallons. This is not merely due to the increase in population, which is under control, but the tremendous industrial expansion that has taken place not only in Jurong but in other parts of Singapore. But I would urge MPs and their constituents not to indiscriminately throw rubbish into drains especially those where the storm water is diverted into the reservoirs.

I must thank the Hon. Minister for his kind reply and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $91,699,400 for Head Q ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates, The sum of $215,205,640 for Head Q ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. 6.30 p.m. Head R -

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1100 of Subhead Code RA-01 of the Main Estimates. Sir, we have heard that some of our science students have experimented to a certain extent the use of solar energy as an alternative source of energy. May I know how successful has this experiment been, and how is this energy to be channelled for domestic use on the island. I wonder whether any tests or studies have been conducted in harnessing wind energy as an alternative source of power. Could the Minister comment? Sir, I have noticed that our contribution to the International Atomic Energy Agency last year was $40,000, whereas the Budget estimates for this year have been increased to $105,000, that is an increase of over a hundred percent. I presume that our activities in connection with this Agency must have expanded. If so, to what extent have we benefited by contributing to this Agency? Could the Minister elaborate?

Sir, since the last energy crisis in 1973, large scale research and development on the use of solar energy has taken place in the United States, the United Kingdom, Japan and other countries. Though there have been studies made in Singapore at our University, I think the widespread use of solar energy here is most likely to be dependent on the success or otherwise of research and development elsewhere. As for wind, a study has been conducted in the University to evaluate the prospects of utilising wind power, but I am afraid the results are rather discouraging. While it is technically feasible on a small scale to use wind power on the off-shore islands, it is not likely to be of economic or practical use on the main island because our winds are not consistent. They blow anywhere, off-shore or in-shore and at any time they please. As for the increase of our contribution to the International Atomic Energy Agency, this is partly due to an increase in the IAEA regular ,budget, from US$37 million to US$45 million in 1978, and partly due to the increase of the UN scale of assessment of Singapore, from 0.04% to 0.08%. That seems to be the level of increase in our development. They consider us no longer a developing country but a developed country. But we have benefited through our participation in IAEA seminars, symposiums, study tours, training courses and workshops and the receipt of their publications. We have even had technical assistance from them in the form of fellowships, experts and equipment. But I think the Member wanted to know mainly why we have to pay more. I have given him the reason.

Sir, may I ask the Minister whether there is any plan to develop nuclear energy? I understand that there is a Nuclear Research Unit in the Ministry of Science and Technology. I just wish to know what has come out of it.

Apparently, Sir, not very much. We are just able to keep abreast of development in the field of nuclear energy and obtain the necessary training from the IAEA for our manpower. Perhaps in the long term we might see more benefits. But for the short term I am very pessimistic.

Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code RB-01 of the Main Estimates. Sir, the metrication programme has been going on for a number of years. I believe this has been quite successful in the building and construction industry. Plans submitted to the Planning Department use metric units. A great percentage of the electrical and electronic industry have metricated. In addition, the consumer public have also been flooded with publicity material disseminating the metric message. I would like to find out from the Minister how successfully has the metric message been carried down to the general public. Have surveys been carried out to assess the housewives' knowledge of our metrication programme, and do housewives now shop in metric? Do they know the difference between a kilogram, a kati or a pound? Do they also realise the distinction between the metre and the yard, or a foot? Because of the lack of clarity between the metric and the weights and measures they were so used to and brought up with, are they being blatantly deceived by retailers? What further metric programmes are being considered to educate the public on metrication to enable them to safeguard their own interests?

Sir, metrication has progressed well but not easily. The programme was initiated in 1971 and the Board's plan was to complete the programme over a period of ten years in three phases. The first phase, the conversion of the public sector, was completed as early as 1973. The second phase, the conversion of the industrial and the manufacturing sectors, has been largely completed. The Board is now working on the final phase, the conversion of the retail trade sector. So far we have been successful and we expect the programme to be completed on schedule. The Board itself carries out monitoring of the reaction of the people towards metrication and their progress in learning the system. A survey on housewives conducted in 1975 has shown that about 50% of housewives were familiar with the system. Subsequent surveys at market places showed that the majority of housewives now accept metrication and are also able to use the basic metric units like the kilogram and metre, though most of them are more familiar with the kati. But it is the majority of the older people, people like me, who have been so used to the old system of yards and feet and pounds, who get a little confused when it comes to kilograms or metres. That is not so bad. I understand what a gallon is. But when you talk about a 'litre' - it is not 'litter', but 'litre' - I get a bit giddy, I understand 'litter' better. But as I have said, metrication will take a long, long time. As for more surveys, a survey was conducted in the middle of last year amongst retailers to determine their ability to sell in metric units. The survey showed that about 88% of the retailers in the markets possessed metric instruments and were able to sell in metric units. In the case of provision shops, the metric capability was over 90%. The Board is now engaged in educating the people through personal contacts at the markets and exhibitions at community centres. Up to-date, 17 constituencies have been covered. I do not know whether they have gone to Potong Pasir, but if the Member is anxious I will arrange for an exhibition as soon as possible.

Sir, despite the fact that the Minister gets giddy when he speaks in metric units, he has most certainly answered my questions explicitly. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code RC-01 of the Main Estimates. Sir, we all know that the Singapore Polytechnic plays a very important role in supplying certain needs to our manpower requirements in the technological field. I would like the Minister concerned to inform this House how many graduated from the Singapore Polytechnic over the last three years and the various courses covered by these graduates, and what are their job prospects? 6.45 p.m. Another point, Sir, that I wish to know from the Minister concerned is the type of courses that will be organised to meet the increasing manpower needs of the more sophisticated type of industries. We have talked about raising and sharpening of skills, There are other institutions like the Industrial Training Board which upgrade artisan skills. But I would expect the Singapore Polytechnic to supply graduates with better technological knowhow on the technical side to help in our industrialisation expansion programme at the turn of the next century. In this respect, to what extent has assessment been made?

Sir, the training programmes for technicians at the Singapore Polytechnic are planned in accordance with the overall manpower requirements of the nation, and also take into consideration the future needs. The annual projection of manpower requirements is made by the Manpower Division of the Ministry of Finance which provides an overall indication of the need for technicians for the coming years. The annual enrolment of students for the various courses conducted at the Polytechnic is therefore based on this projection requirements. The Member asked for an example. In the next 10 years, Singapore will probably have a shortage of about 300 technicians each year. For this type of technicians, the different categories of requirements will be planned by the Singapore Polytechnic, and the necessary requirements in terms of student intake as well as staff intake will be planned accordingly. Sir, I have here a detailed analysis (Cols. 1125 - 1128) of the distribution of the graduates for the last three years, breaking up both full-time and part-time. The actual number of graduates for the 1975-76 session was 1,671 ; the number for the 1976-77 session was 2,332 and the number projected for 1977-78 is 2,435. I suggest handing the list of details to the Member for Punggol because it is quite cumbersome to read it out. If he wants, he can have it and he can query later. It is quite detailed. It is broken down into something like 20 courses, and it also gives an analysis of employment with Government departments, statutory boards, private establishments as well as educational institutions. It is a fairly detailed analysis of the requirements that the Member has mentioned. analysis - Number of Graduates in Employment Relevant to Training, 1975 to 1977, Distribution of Graduates by Nature of Employment, 1975 to 1977 (Cols. 1125 - 1128) As to the plan for the training of industrial technicians, I can say that the Polytechnic train technicians at the intermediate level. The University produces what we call the qualified engineers. Below that, we have the diploma holders and that will cover the graduates of the Singapore Polytechnic as well as those from the Ngee Ann Technical College. Then the next rung of technicians would be those from the Industrial Training Board. So the graduates from the Singapore Polytechnic will therefore fall in the intermediate level of technicians. The courses conducted by the Singapore Polytechnic are dealt with in some depth in the specific area of a particular type of technology and, in fact, emphasis is always on industrial application. There are ample practical sessions provided to supplement the teaching of theory. The general courses provided are in the field of engineering, building, nautical studies, marine engineering, shipbuilding and chemical and process technology. Here again, I have the details of these general courses and if the Member is interested I will submit it to him together with the breakdown of the graduates for the different courses.

6.52 p.m.

Sir, I must thank the Senior Minister of State for National Development for his detailed reply. I think he has missed out one point, i.e. the question of job prospects of these graduates. I also note with considerable interest the figures quoted in respect of enrolment, both part-time and full-time students. The enrolment is on the increase. My question is whether the staffing position is also being met with regard to the ever-increasing intake of students.

Sir, to assure the hon. Member, the staff establishment of the Singapore Polytechnic is almost full. The academic staff establishment is 281. In fact, it is almost full. I have indicated just now that whatever projections that we have for the next few years are normally considered in the budgeting of the establishment required. So to assure the Member, the intake of students is also projected according to the number of graduates that are needed, and therefore the staff are correspondingly budgeted for to cover a particular establishment. The Member has asked about job opportunities for these graduates. For those graduates who pass out from the Polytechnic with a diploma, most of the men will go into national service. After three years at the Polytechnic they go straight into national service. In fact, most of the women graduates get employment within the first six months after graduation quite easily. From the list given to me which gives the breakdown of the graduates for 1975, 1976, 1977, one can safely say that most of the Polytechnic graduates were employed. The most important point is that they are employed in the relevant field that they have studied at the Polytechnic.

Sir, in view of the satisfactory reply of the Senior Minister of State for National Development, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $23,892,460 for Head R ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $14,728,800 for Head R ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates, Head S -

( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head S by reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code SB-01 of the Main Estimates. Sir, generally speaking, in recent years the Police Department has raised its efficiency and the relations between the Police and the people have improved to a great extent. All this can be attributed to the campaigns of the Department in promoting good public relations. I hope that the Police Department can maintain this relationship and continue to provide efficient and courteous service to the people. However, since the Department has a large number of personnel, there is bound to be some black sheep among the good lot. In view of this, the officers in charge should be more vigilant in their supervision and correct the faults as soon as possible so as to enable the Department to provide a continuous efficient service and to be in a position to protect the people, property and lives, and to maintain law and order, Sir, I have several matters to raise with the Minister, I have received reports of a suspicion that in the Marsiling housing estate in Sembawang, some police patrolmen are playing truant. Every night they would park their patrol car in an HDB car park at about 7 or 8 p.m. in that locality and just disappear into thin air, I thought they might have gone on foot patrol. If this is so, they would be discharging their police duties. But, is it so? However, some members of the public told me that they had seen the patrolmen playing mahjongg. They said they had seen them driving away in the patrol car round about 10 p.m. This blatant and open truancy on the part of the policemen is a serious matter and I would ask the Minister to look into it. 7.00 p.m. Secondly, there are frequent complaints of theft in the hawker centres and the market in this Marsiling housing estate, and the hawkers are suffering heavy losses. I hope the Minister will send more police cars to patrol this area to prevent further theft. Of course, I do not want him to send the truant police officers there. Thirdly, I have received yet another complaint to the effect that certain policemen who cannot write their reports in English have found an easy way out by not writing the report at all. Moreover, they realise that if they were to write reports, they may be required to appear in court to give evidence and this would give them even more trouble. So they just end up by not writing the reports. But it seems that police officers who issue summons for traffic offences are good in writing reports. So I would like the Minister to consider whether it is possible to allow police officers who cannot write reports in English to make their report in a language that they are conversant with. In this way their efficiency can be raised. The next representation is that the number of patrol cars in the constituency of Sembawang is not adequate. In cases of emergency, it takes a long time for the Police to make any response to a telephone call, and normally a police car will arrive in about three hours' time. I ask the Minister to consider purchasing more patrol cars so as to maintain better security and public order there. Fifthly, I would like to ask the Minister to state again the Government's policy on curbing long hair. What is the present condition? Is there any change of policy on long hair? As I see it, there seems to be a greater prevalence of long hair everywhere in Singapore. I would like the Minister to tell this House what action has been taken against long hair over the past few years. In the last one year how many civil servants have been warned against sporting long hair? What other action has been taken with regard to long haired tourists?

Sir, first of all, I would like to thank the Member for Sembawang for praising the Police for raising its efficiency in the last few years and also at the same time fostering better public/police relationship. However, the Member for Sembawang has made some complaints about the Police Force. I would like to deal with his complaints, and hope to answer to his satisfaction. He has made a general complaint about a patrol car parked in the Marsiling area. He said that it was parked in suspicious circumstances as he heard that this policeman was playing truant after parking his patrol car there. He was told by the people that the policeman had disappeared to play mahjongg and came back to his car about 10.00 p.m. In other words, he had been away for a number of hours. Before I answer the complaint, may I first ask the Member this. When did he receive such a complaint, and did he make a report to the officer-in-charge of the Division, or has he written to the Ministry about this, so that I could deal with the complaint?

( In Mandarin): Sir, it is not my responsibility. I have now made the complaint to the Minister. That is good enough to help him to initiate some action. The Minister himself should send somebody to look into the matter and to find out the number of the patrol car. I have already given him the time and place. The other details are to be investigated by the Police themselves.

Sir, may I know when did he hear of such a complaint?

( In Mandarin): I can tell him roughly that it was early this year.

Sir, the reason why I asked the Member to give more specific details is that the nature of the complaint is rather far-fetched, as the Police has a system of supervision and control of patrol cars. First, patrol supervisors conduct surprise checks on patrol crew on the ground. When a patrol crew is not working on a case, the crew leader is required from time to time to report his location. He is then asked to proceed to a designated public telephone. When the crew reports over the radio its arrival at the designated telephone, the supervisor will ring that telephone and speak to the crew leader. It is therefore most unlikely for patrol cars not to receive calls from the patrol control room for a stretch of three to four hours. If a car was parked unattended in a car park in the Marsiling area for such a long time in the evening, it was most probably not a patrol car. Let me go on to his other complaint about theft in the Marsiling area. May I inform the Member for Sembawang that there were only four reported cases of theft in this area. One was a bicycle theft and the other three were minor thefts, such as a carton of cigarettes and a few bottles of soft drinks from an eating stall in the market. With regard to action taken, two male youths were arrested on the 10th July last year. In one of the three cases of theft of four bottles of soft drinks, a youth was prosecuted. As far as this year is concerned, from January to March, there was only one reported case of breaking a showcase on the 3rd March this year, in which cigarettes valued at $25 were stolen. Four male youths were arrested and charged in court. For the information of the Member for Sembawang, just to show him that we always do our best to keep his constituency safe, between May 1977 and February 1978, in addition to the usual uniformed police patrols by both the regulars and police national service officers, 18 crime prevention operations, six anti-secret society sweeps and 34 anti-crime operations were carried out in Marsiling estate, which included the market and its vicinity. In these operations 380 persons were checked and 47 persons arrested, including those six thieves I have mentioned earlier. Let me come to his third complaint. There again, the complaint is rather general. But may I say this. In each police station there are officers conversant not only in the official languages but also dialects to put up reports on complaints or to receive reports from members of the public. From time to time, these officers are told during in-service training and briefing sessions that failure to put up reports of complaints or to receive reports will result in disciplinary action against them. It will help me if the Member for Sembawang could indicate which particular officer has defaulted by not wanting to write up the report of a complaint, or was it just another case of generalisation on his part. The other point is his suggestion to make reports in a language other than English. Although complaints to police officers can be made in any language, including the dialects, the report has to be written in English because English is the language of administration. If the officer concerned is not very good in his English, he could always get his brother officers to assist him. With regard to patrol cars, he says that there are insufficient patrol cars in the Sembawang area. May I say that we have 35 cars from the eight Police Land Divisions and 18 cars from the Radio Division on patrol at any one time. Out of this number, two cars cover the Sembawang area.

Only two?

Two out of 35 from the Land Divisions and 18 from the Radio Division. I think that is sufficient. If the Member is not aware, may I say that we have asked the Management Services Department of the Ministry of Finance to make a recent study into the adequacy of patrol cars on patrol at any one time. For his information, in a study of 40 cases the Management Services Department found that the average response time between receipt of a report at Radio Control and the arrival of the police patrol car was about 10 to 12 minutes. I do not know whether it was an exaggeration on the part of the Member for Sembawang that it took three hours for the patrol car to answer his call.

No, not three hours. It was half an hour.

May I ask him whether that instance of half an hour's wait was a recent experience or was it his experience exactly one year ago. I remember quite distinctly that during the budget debate last year he said that he himself telephoned the patrol car and it arrived half an hour later. 7.15 p.m.

( In Mandarin): The last time it was my personal experience. This time it was the experience of my constituent. It is a different case altogether. This means that the patrol car service is still very poor.

Sir, I am rather suspicious about it. He says that this time it was his constituent, without telling me when and where this incident happened. But let me deal with his fourth point. The Member wants to know what action the Government has taken against those who sport long hair. For his information, the Government's policy to discourage males from sporting long hair is still being strictly and vigorously enforced. He wanted to know how many civil servants have been warned and what action has been taken against those who sport long hair. For 1977, a total of 348 Government employees with long hair were spotted and action was taken against them, 325 of them were warned, 20 were fined and three were dismissed. Last year, 59 musicians were advised to cut their hair and 591 students were given warnings and their parents informed. We also dealt with persons with long hair seeking entry into Singapore. 620 persons who sported long hair were refused entry into Singapore last year, and 801 were allowed entry after they had their hair cut.

( In Mandarin): Sir, I am partially satisfied with the answer given by the Minister but I am not satisfied with part of it. I have said that there is efficiency and improvement in the Police Force but there are still certain shortcomings. That is the reason why I am bringing them to his attention with good intentions, so that he could take this opportunity to correct these short-comings. I am just helping him improve the efficiency of the service of the Police. Since the Minister has given some constructive answers, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code SB-01 of the Main Estimates. Sir, this Subhead deals with patrols and policing of housing estates and other areas by mobile police teams. Just now the Minister for Home Affairs and Education has given to the House some indication of the Mobile Police team. I notice that national servicemen in the Special Constabulary and the Vigilante Corps have been used to help patrol and police the housing estates. How effective have they been in helping not only to curb crime but also detect crime in the housing estates? Sir, I notice on page 264 of the Budget, under the Establishment List, that the number of personnel in the Police is 2,386 for FY 78. The provision of some $18.97 million is indeed a very big sum of money. How will these 2,000-odd Police personnel help to patrol and police these housing estates satisfactorily, bearing in mind that more housing estates are being built and therefore the need for more personnel?

Sir, for patrols in the Housing Board estates, we use national servicemen. Police national servicemen are divided into two categories. One is the part-time national servicemen in the Special Constabulary and the Vigilante Corps. The other is the full-time national servicemen. For patrols, under the Neighbourhood Policing Scheme 3,480 part-time national servicemen in the Special Constabulary are involved in patrolling Housing Board estates. In addition, we have, 8,634 part-time national servicemen in the Community Security Force (CSF) of the Vigilante Corps patrolling the Housing Board estates. Therefore, on the average, the number deployed on patrol in HDB estates works out to 348 Special Constables and 575 Vigilante Corps members per night between 7.00 p.m. and 11.00 p.m. As for the full-time national servicemen, they are not utilised exclusively for patrolling the Housing Board estates. There are about 1,150 of them who are available for general police duties in the eight Police Divisions and their actual deployment depends on the crime situation in each Division. A total of 52 Housing Board estates are regularly patrolled by part-time national servicemen in the Special Constabulary and the Vigilante Corps. As to how effective these patrols are, may I quote some figures. On the average, 48 of these 52 estates were patrolled in 1977; the residents enjoyed 29 crime-free nights in a 30-day month. The remaining four estates enjoyed between 26 and 28 crime-free nights per month. On an island-wide basis, both full-time and part-time national servicemen have contributed towards the reduction of crime in Singapore over the last two years. This is particularly the case with serious crimes such as robbery and housebreaking. The number of robberies reported in 1976 dropped to 947 from 1,343 in 1975. This represents a drop of 29.5%. In 1977, robberies declined further to 919 or by 3%. As for housebreaking in 1976 it dropped to 1,712 from 2,025 in 1975, making a reduction of 15.5%. In 1977, housebreaking dropped further to 1,691 or by 1.2%. In 1977, a total of 4,372 cases were handled by full-time Police national servicemen with or without the help of regular Police personnel. 948 persons were arrested and charged in court for various criminal offences. Of these 368 persons were convicted. The number of persons arrested by full-time national servicemen for drug offences was 4,131. In other words, Sir, full-time and part-time national servicemen have therefore been a very effective deterrent against crimes in Singapore. So whatever money that has been spent is well worth it.

Sir, the Minister mentioned that out of 948 persons arrested, 368 persons were convicted, leaving about 480 persons. He also mentioned that the number of persons arrested for drug offences was 4,131. Could the Minister indicate which areas are most drug-prone?

Sir, there are many areas which are drug-prone. The one that comes to my mind straightaway is the Jalan Kolam Ayer Quarters, in Potong Pasir. I answered a Question on this only a few days ago. There are many other areas but I cannot tell him offhand.

In view of the Minister's satisfactory reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code SE-01 of the Main Estimates. Sir, the accident rate in Singapore in the past six months remains as high as ever despite the vigorous road safety campaign organised by the Traffic Police last year and the subsequent enforcement of stiffer penalties for road traffic offences. It was reported in some of our local newspapers recently that hell-riders on motor cycles raced on some of our roads, as if they were racing circuits, in defiance of the law and with such impunity. 7.30 p.m. At road junctions where there are traffic lights, street urchins on weekends weave in and out of cars waiting for the green traffic light signal, trying to sell Mah Piu Poh. All these must suggest that the recent road safety campaign and the enactment of stiffer penalties for traffic offences have no effect on certain groups of Singaporeans. They are not only constantly putting their lives in danger but they are also a great menace to the other road users. I would like to ask the Minister whether the Traffic Police is taking steps to deal more effectively than before with the road menace that I have just mentioned. I would also like to ask the Minister whether he is satisfied with the result of the recent road safety campaign, and to what extent have the objectives of the campaign been achieved. The signboards on pedestrian crossing are often placed too inconspicuously, resulting in pedestrians not being able to see them. Will the Traffic Police consider putting them in more conspicuous positions?

Sir, it is apparent that nowadays as a pedestrian or a motorist, there are so many traffic instructions to abide that if you make a slip, the lawman is there to book you. But the uniformed personnel should not give an impression that they are out only to book offenders. They should attempt to educate the public and with courtesy. Sir, is the Minister aware that some of the traffic summonses have been issued indiscriminately? What remedial action is he taking against those who abuse their privilege of booking offenders? Let me quote a case. A motorist was turning right from Beatty Road to the one-way Serangoon Road, and he had been observing the proper traffic signs. But all of a sudden, a plainclothes man who was also riding a motor cycle drew up to him at the road junction of Lavender Street and Serangoon Road and abused him by calling him kayu, and so on. This motorist who was abused knew that he had not committed any offence but nevertheless followed him a short distance away from the junction and asked him the reason for the abuse. The next moment the plainclothes man demanded the driving licence of the motorist who in turn, questioned as to who he was to demand for his licence. In reply, the plainclothes man said that he was a police officer. The motorist then requested him to show his warrant card. But he refused to show his warrant card and just took down the number of the motorist and went off, Two weeks later, the motorist received a traffic summons pointing out that he had committed an offence for inconsiderate riding and failing to show his driving licence. He was asked to pay a fine of $70. He is a hospital servant. His pay is only $150. If he has to pay $70 for one traffic offence, how can he live? He then went to the Traffic Police Section to explain his case. But his explanation was not accepted and he was told that he could go to court and appeal. How can he appeal? He must engage a lawyer, and he would probably have to spend another $150 in order to go to the court and again be fined. The plainclothes man did a wrong thing. He must first give a warning. However, to avoid trouble instead of going to court, he decided to pay the $70 fine which was indeed a great blow to him, in view of his low income. Sir, the question here is that it would appear that anyone without properly identifying himself could issue a summons indiscriminately to any motorist. In other words, any one can impersonate a police officer without producing a warrant card and summon as they wish. The Minister may say why I did not write to him on this case.

Why?

The Minister's reply would be, "He had committed an offence and he was therefore fined." I am now telling this House that such abuse of power is going on. What is the Minister going to do to stop such uncalled-for summons? Again, it is observed that quite often notices too are being issued to the wrong persons. There was a case where a person was away from the country and his car was never used and yet he was given a notice to get the particulars of the driver for an offence committed during his absence. It was the wrong number. The person was' in the United States. Fortunately he had his passport to prove that he had been abroad and the case was squashed. They can do whatever they like. Why was this person made to waste his precious time to go and explain the unnecessary summons? It appears that the person who issued the wrong notice had not been dealt with for his mistake. But then when the motorists commit an offence, they are ever ready to book them. What is the criterion here? Sir, sometime ago I did bring up the question of courtesy of uniformed personnel who are out to book jaywalkers. Even now, there is still room for improvement, I had also mentioned the confusing pedestrian crossing along Wallich Street in my constituency. In reply, the Minister said that the Traffic Police would keep the matter under review to see how this inconvenience to the motorists could be reduced. After that, every day during the peak hour periods a few uniformed personnel with a tally board in their hands would hang around five-foot ways, just waiting to book all pedestrians who by-pass the pedestrian crossing. In fact, some of the pedestrians did not intentionally by-pass the pedestrian crossing but it was simply because of the traffic flow which induces people coming out from a busy lane to move straight on to cross Wallich Street without noticing the pedestrian footpath which is a distance away. Many people have been booked for jaywalking by the uniformed personnel who are on duty there. They show no discretion in letting off pedestrians who are confused and have unintentionally crossed against the rules. Only lately an improvement was made to that place. A private plot of vacant land used as a small park was converted into a footpath to join the pedestrian footpath at Wallich Street and the other end at Choon Guan Street. Even at the time when the footpath was under construction, a lorry was seen to unload the concrete slabs near the pedestrian path and it was therefore blocking the pedestrian's view of the crossing. During that specific time some pedestrian did not therefore notice the pedestrian crossing and they too were booked by the uniformed personnel for jaywalking. I wonder whether any discretion has been given to these uniformed personnel when booking offenders for jaywalking. It would seem that if they do not issue three or four summonses a day, they would not get any promotion or increment. Is that the reason? Could the Minister give the number of offenders who had been booked just for ignoring the use of the complicated pedestrian crossing at the junction of Wallich Street and Anson Road? Sir, something has to be done to eradicate all these abuses.

Sir, I notice that in the Establishment List under this Subhead, the number of staff has remained constant for FY 77 and FY 78, although we have had several campaigns during this period. The last one was the Safety First campaign held last year after which many motorists and jaywalkers were booked. But the number in the Establishment List has remained constant. I understand from certain quarters that there seems to be a bottleneck in the department processing the summonses, i.e. the clerks who actually make out the summonses. The reason why immediate action was not taken was that the clerks could not cope with all the summonses that are sent to the department. Apparently the work load has increased ten-fold but the number of staff has remained the same. I wonder if the Minister can explain the situation.

Sir, as we see it, the traffic today is in many ways under some semblance of control, with campaigns on road safety. Nevertheless, we still see a high incidence of traffic accidents with great morbidity and mortality, I just wish to say that for any campaign to be effective it should be sustained. The campaign should not be for a short duration and then forgotten. There should be a sustained campaign of education and a continued enforcement of the law. One essential element of this campaign is the Highway Code. The last time I remembered the Highway Code in any detail was when I sat for my Highway Code test. That was some 17 years ago. I believe there are many elderly motorists here who could have forgotten the Highway Code altogether. I am not familiar with any changes or updating of the Highway Code.

You need to be re-tested.

Yes, perhaps so. But the point I am driving at is that besides updating the Highway Code, it should be introduced to the drivers periodically, either by sending it to them or they can be compelled to purchase the new Highway Code when they renew their driving licence. We know that many measures have been introduced locally to try to modulate our traffic to ensure that the roads are safe. Of course, the question of pedestrian crossing is a very recent thing in our minds. I still believe that we have not been able to drive home this message sufficiently. In order to ensure better pedestrian habit, one way would be to install more green man/red man lights at traffic junctions. I think it is worth spending some money to install more of these lights to help pedestrians to cross roads safely. 7.45 p.m. At the same time, the Traffic Police should monitor and ensure that the time span for the green man should be adjusted so that there is no inconvenience to traffic turning either left or right. But we still see traffic congestion and traffic being held back because of this lack of proper adjustment of the pedestrian crossing time. Sometimes the pedestrians are at fault because, instead of running across when it is appropriate, they just stroll along one after another as if it is a delight to see a line of traffic being held back, Sir, there is another problem which I thought is worth mentioning. This is with regard to the green arrow traffic light. We are pretty familiar with the green arrow now. But I notice that at some traffic junctions the green arrow for right filter can, if not modified, become a source of traffic accidents. I am specifically referring to the Holland Road/Farrer Road/Queensway junction where traffic in this area tends to move rather fast. At this junction, the green arrow indicates that vehicles could filter right, Now, all of a sudden it goes off and at the same time the traffic light for the opposite lane at right angles suddenly turns green, thus creating a potentially disastrous situation for a collision. Every time I cross this junction, I shudder to think of the possible consequences. I notice that at some traffic junctions, they have installed a flickering green arrow and perhaps this would be suitable. Or else consideration should be given to add an amber arrow to warn that the light is about to change. Interestingly, Sir, we also observe that near River Valley and Tank Roads, they have now introduced a red arrow. Perhaps the Minister might tell us that red arrow means either crossing at your own risk or not to cross at all!

Red is always danger!

Sir, the last point is with regard to the question of road hogging. We still notice a lot of road hoggers. But in order to define what a road hogger is, one must understand which lane is fast and which lane is slow. We have yet to clearly define this. In the old Highway Code that I was familiar with, the fast lane is the outer lane and the slow lane is the inner lane. Today we have situations where the whole road is actually one-way traffic, like when we come down Kim Seng Road which has four or five lanes. There is a lane for vehicles to filter left as well as a lane for vehicles to filter right. In this case, is the right traffic fast and the left traffic slow, or are the middle lanes fast and outer lanes on both sides slow? Sir, I notice that I have developed the habit of speaking close to 8 o'clock. I shall now give time for the Hon. Minister to kindly reply to these points.

Sir, I have four Members to reply to and I will try to reply as fast as I can. First, the Member for Moulmein. He has stated that in spite of our nation-wide road safety campaign last year, the accident rates in the last six months have remained as high as ever. I would like to correct some misconception about this. The total figure of accidents is not a reliable index of whether the accident rates have gone up or not, because the total figure of accidents include knock-for-knock accidents where no injury or death occur. As Members know, many knock-for-knock accidents are settled on the roadside and they have never reported these accidents. So the only good indication of whether there has been an increase or decrease in the accident rate will be to compare figures of accidents where injury and death have occurred. If we make comparison, I think we will have a more accurate picture. In order to disabuse the Member for Moulmein that the campaign has not been as successful, may I quote some figures? The road safety campaign was held in June 1977. For the eight months after the campaign, i.e. from July 1977 to February 1978, there were 5,535 accidents which resulted in death or injury. For the eight months prior to the campaign, the corresponding figure was 6,294 accidents. Therefore, after the campaign there has been a drop of 759 such accidents or 12%. So there has been a significant decrease in the number of accidents where death and injury occurred after the campaign. The month-long campaign was launched in June last year and this was essentially an educational programme with the specific objective to demonstrate the utter senselessness and dire consequences of serious traffic accidents; and the ways in which all road users could help to minimise road accidents. In other words, I agree with the Member for Kim Seng that it must be a sustained educational campaign. I also agree with the Member for Moulmein that it must be followed by enforcement because, as he puts it, there are always certain groups of people in Singapore who are recalcitrant and no amount of education will drive the message home to these people, The other point is that the theme of the campaign last year was mainly on the Highway Code. I am quite surprised that the Member for Kim Seng was not aware that the theme of the campaign was mainly on the Highway Code because prior to the campaign which was launched in June, the Police had mini campaigns. Prior to that, for every month starting from December 1976 the Police introduced a theme from the rules in the Highway Code, e.g. motorists must give way to pedestrians when turning right; motorists must not road hog, and so on and so forth. The Highway Code was made the theme of the campaign. However, in view of what the Member for Kim Seng has stated, we will continue to repeat those exhortations and guidance. The Member for Moulmein brought up the point about the road sign indicating a pedestrian crossing 50 metres away within which distance pedestrians must use the pedestrian crossing. These 50-metre limit traffic signs are clearly visible to all road users. The PWD is of the view that any sign bigger than this would unnecessarily detract from the general orderliness in our streets and may even cause obstruction. Wherever possible, the PWD has placed the signs in the most conspicuous position. Apart from the warnings provided by these signs, the actual pedestrian crossings, such as zebra crossings, overhead bridges and traffic light signals are conspicuous and pedestrians who remember to look for them should have no difficulty at all in spotting them. As regards "hell drivers", in operations by the Traffic Police against hell drivers and riders conducted between 30th October and 28th November 1977, a total of 20 persons were arrested and subsequently charged in court for rash driving and riding. Another 34 were summoned for dangerous and inconsiderate driving. So far, nine persons have been convicted and penalties in the form of fines ranging from $800 to $1,000 and disqualification from driving of up to seven years were imposed. The Traffic Police will continue to act against hell drivers or racers if and when they re-emerge. Now, the Mah Piu Poh boys who run around road junctions selling newspapers and impeding the free flow of motor vehicles on the road and transgressing the pedestrian crossing rules. The Police have taken action against them from time to time and will continue to do so. May I turn to my Friend, the Member for Anson. He started his speech by saying that nowadays once a road user makes a slip in not observing the law, the lawman is there to book him. May I say to the Member that it is better to book him now so that he can learn to be more careful than to allow him to make a slip next time and be maimed or killed on the road as that would be a much heavier penalty to pay. Mr P. Govindaswamy rose -

Mr Chua, are you prepared to give way?

No, Sir. The Member talked about indiscriminate traffic laws and failure of the men on the ground to exercise tact and courtesy, and he quoted one case which proves to be groundless. The Member complained that a police officer called his complainant kayu. He was offered a composition fine and was told that if he was not satisfied he could have his case tried in court. Instead of doing so, he paid the fine and then gave the Member for Anson the excuse that it was a waste of time to go to court. May I say that by saying so, he is showing disrespect to the court. Alternatively, if he is innocent and he pays a fine, then he must really be a kayu. 8.00 p.m.

Order. Mr Chua, it is now 8 o'clock. Perhaps you could continue on Monday.

Sir, as I have other points to reply to, I will continue on Monday.

Very well. Moment of interruption. Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1978 to 31st March, 1979, and ask leave to sit again on Monday, 20th March, 1978.

So be it.

Resolved, "That Parliament do now adjourn." - [Mr Chua Sian Chin]. Adjourned accordingly at Eight o'clock p.m. analysis - Number of Graduates in Employment Relevant to Training, 1975 to 1977, Distribution of Graduates by Nature of Employment, 1975 to 1977 (Cols. 1125 - 1128)