Hansard, 1982-03-18

asked the Minister for Law whether he will make a statement on the affairs of the chit fund companies which were ordered to be wound up with particular reference to the affairs of the Gemini Chit Fund and say how much has been realised in the winding up to date and how much has been paid out to the contributors to the various funds.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Chit Funds Act came into operation on 14th January, 1972. Since then, a total of 26 chit fund companies have been ordered by the Court to be wound up mainly upon the application of the Minister for Finance. The Official Receiver was appointed liquidator of 22 companies, and the remaining four were administered by private liquidators. Subsequently, however, the liquidators of these four companies made applications to Court to transfer the liquidation to the Official Receiver. The main assets of these companies are monies owing by subscribers who had successfully bid in the chit fund groups before the companies were wound up. The collection of these debts takes time; a debtor paying under a Court instalment order may take several years before he finally pays up the debt. However, in order to assist the creditor-subscribers, interim dividends are declared as and when there are sufficient funds to do so. To-date the subscribers of nine chit fund companies have received a 100% dividend exceeding $2,375,000. Interim dividends totalling about $22,237,000 have been paid to the subscribers of the remaining 17 chit fund companies. Particulars of these companies and other details are given in two Tables (Cols. 1223 - 1224) which are with the Clerk of the House, (marked Appendices I and II). Tables - INFORMATION ON CHIT FUND COMPANIES WHICH HAD PAID OUT 100% DIVIDEND (Cols. 1223 - 1224) On the affairs of Gemini Chit Fund, the total realization to-date is $12,406,135. Two dividend payments totalling $9,769,018 have so far been declared to its 23,469 subscribers.

asked the Minister of Defence how many applications for deferment of and exemption from national service were received in 1981 and how many of these applications were granted and on what grounds.

Mr Speaker, Sir, persons liable for national service, but assessed by Mindef to be medically unfit, are given exemption from all forms of national service. In 1981, 1,425 registrants (meaning those who have registered for national service but have not been enlisted) were exempted. In the same year, of those who have been enlisted, 3,358 servicemen (including reservists) were exempted from further national service on medical grounds. Applications for exemption on medical grounds are granted only if the person is certified by a Mindef Medical Board, consisting of three doctors, to be permanently unfit for national service. However, for those who possess GCE 'A' level qualifications, even if they are medically unfit, they will still be enlisted and will be posted to sedentary jobs instead of undergoing military training. This is to ensure that those who are medically unfit do not have an advantage over those who are fit in respect of entering the university. Many such cases help out in Government Ministries. They work under the supervision of experienced staff. Each application for exemption on grounds other than medical grounds is examined by an Advisory Board consisting of prominent citizens and senior SAF officers. Most applications are made on grounds of financial hardship and every case is thoroughly investigated before the full facts are submitted to the Advisory Board. When the Board finds that a case merits special consideration, it will decide either (i) that financial assistance be provided during the full-time national service period, or (ii) that deferment of enlistment for full-time national service be granted, or (iii) that the applicant be permitted enlistment into the Vigilante Corps instead of the SAF, Police, or Fire Brigade. In 1981, a total of 699 applications on grounds of financial hardship were received. Of these, 537 cases were rejected, 116 were offered financial assistance of up to $300 per month during their full-time national service; 21 had their enlistment deferred, and the remaining 24 were enlisted into the Vigilante Corps. In addition to the deferment of enlistment for full-time national service granted to a few hardship cases, there are various deferment schemes for the following groups of registrants: (a) Full-time students in Government or Government-aided schools, and other recognized educational institutions. (b) Personnel in the essential uniformed services. (c) Trainees in approved technical and vocational apprenticeship training schemes, and (d) those who are temporarily medically unfit for national service. For those who have performed their national service full-time, there is still the question of deferment from in-camp training. Reservists are now being informed six to 12 months in advance of the date of their next in-camp training. They can thus make the appropriate arrangements well ahead of time. Therefore, deferment from in-camp training is allowed only after Mindef is convinced that the circumstances are clearly beyond the control of the reservist and/or his employer. In 1981, only 5% of those called up for in-camp training were given deferment on their application. As the message gets through that reservists are given six to 12 months' prior notice for their in-camp training, there will be little ground to seek deferment. Mindef will therefore be tightening and will be stricter in granting further deferments for in-camp training. By far the greatest proportion of applications for deferment of in-camp training comes from reservists who are officers and NCOs. This is because, generally, they hold more responsible positions in their civilian employment. Unfortunately, granting deferment to such reservists will also cause the greatest upset to the military units in which they serve. For example, if a Company Commander is deferred from in-camp training, all the soldiers who train under him in the Company will suffer as he and his men who have been used to his command will not be able to train together for that one year. This represents obviously a great loss. Reservists and their employers are, therefore, urged to assist the SAF, and to appreciate the situation in which we operate, and to extend to us their fullest cooperation and support in our arrangements for in-camp training.

Mr Speaker, Sir, is the Hon. Minister of State aware that there are occasions where in-camp training was requested twice during the year, a stretch of six weeks at a time, and this has interfered with a reservist's employment. A request was made for a deferment but this was turned down by Mindef.

Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Member can provide me with the details, I will provide him with a very detailed answer on the specific case. But if I may be permitted just to generalize, I suspect that in cases where very short notice has been given, the reservist had in the past another in-camp training deferred and therefore he had to do a make-up in-camp training. Secondly, it is possible that because of very special circumstances another officer had to be deferred at a very late notice and the second officer was then asked to assist, instead of allowing the whole company of national servicemen to operate without their Commanding Officer.

Mr Speaker, Sir, may I seek a clarification from the Minister of State? He has mentioned that hardship is accepted as one of the grounds for an exemption or deferment of national service. May I know the criteria how hardship is defined?

Mr Speaker, Sir, hardship is not one of the grounds for exemption.

asked the Minister of Defence if he is aware of the noise pollution caused by aircraft of the Republic of Singapore Air Force and what measures are being taken to minimise the inconvenience to residents in the vicinity of the Paya Lebar Airport.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of Defence has been conscious of the problems of aircraft noise since it acquired jet trainers for the Air Force in the early Seventies. In the case of Paya Lebar Airport, the problem was recognized long before our RSAF started operations in July last year. The RSAF has implemented various measures to minimize the noise problem and these measures include: (a) operating aircraft at minimum power when flying over densely populated areas; (b) conducting flights whenever possible at heights above 1,500 feet; (c) avoiding built-up areas where possible, and (d) keeping night flying to the minimum and, as far as possible, not beyond 11.00 p.m. Mindef is also looking for other means of reducing noise created by aircraft engine ground runs by installing noise suppression devices. These measures to reduce aircraft noise will be closely monitored and will be improved wherever possible. Owing to land limitations in Singapore, residential areas and airports are located in close proximity. It is, therefore, inevitable that aircraft noise will affect all Singaporeans to a greater or lesser extent. Mindef asks that residents around Paya Lebar Airport give us their understanding and support, knowing the situation as it is in Singapore. In its own very special way, that sound is the audible sign of our security and stability.

asked the Minister for National Development whether the Public Works Department will construct (i) a pedestrian overhead bridge across Jalan Toa Payoh from Rajah Court in view of the increasing number of residents in the vicinity crossing Jalan Toa Payoh daily; and (ii) pedestrian overhead bridges across Balestier Road at points where there is very heavy pedestrian crossing daily by residents and students from the surrounding areas.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Housing and Develop ment Board will be constructing an overhead bridge across Jalan Toa Payoh at Rajah Court. Work will commence in October 1982 and end in March 1983. The Public Works Department is fully aware of the need to provide pedestrian crossing facilities along Balestier Road. There are five sets of traffic lights with green/red man signals and two push-button pedestrian crossing lights along Balestier Road between Thomson Road and Serangoon Road. The PWD will be constructing a pedestrian overhead bridge across Balestier Road at the McNair Road junction to replace the existing push-button pedestrian crossing lights. This will further enhance the safety of pedestrians and improve traffic flow. Work will commence in May 1982 and end in October 1982. A second pedestrian overhead bridge is also planned to be constructed near the junction of Mandalay Road/Balestier Road. Work is expected to start in August 1982 and be completed by the end of the year.

asked the Minister for National Development whether he is aware of complaints that the development charge is too high and whether he will take steps to reduce it.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am aware of the complaints made by developers that the development charge is too high. However, I believe that this is because they are not very clear on how development charge is arrived at or how their interests are protected in the system of levying development charge. Development charge is intended to cream off part of the windfall gains from increases in land values arising from approvals to develop land not in conformity with the Master Plan. It is based on 70% of the increase in land value as determined on a case-by-case basis by the Chief Valuer. This system is fair to all, since land value varies widely from locality to locality and at different points in time. Development charges are as high or as low as property prices at the time of approval of the development project. In the event that developers dispute the quantum of development charge, there is an avenue of appeal to the Minister. The present procedure for the determination of development charge ensures that development is not discouraged. Development charge is determined at the date of the grant of in-principle approval and remains valid for a period of 12 months or until written permission is issued, whichever is earlier. This protects the developer in both a rising as well as a failing property market. In a rising market, with development charge determined on the date of in-principle approval, the developer is protected for up to one year from having to pay higher development charges from rising land values. In a property downturn, the developer can get a new determination of development charge after the expiry of 12 months to benefit from failing land values. Alternatively, he can abort his original planning application before the 12-month period and resubmit for a new in-principle approval upon which development charge will be determined. There are no plans to review the present system of development charges since this is a fair system and reflects the current values of the property market.

Mr Speaker, Sir, may I ask the Minister of State about an appeal to the Minister? Who is the Minister advised by when he sits on this appeal? Does he take an opinion from outside valuers, or is he advised by the Government Valuer who made the valuation in the first instance?

The appeal is considered by three parties. The developer himself is present at the appeal. Then there is he Government Valuer and there is the Valuation Appeals Inspector appointed by the Minister. On the basis of the evidence provided by both the developer and the valuer, the independent Inspector will submit a report to the Minister for National Development who will decide on the case.

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [2nd Allotted Day].

2.50 p.m. Head M (cont.) - Resumption of Debate on Question [17th March, 1982]. "That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MA-01 Object Group 1100 of the Main Estimates." - [Mr Lim Boon Heng]. Question again proposed.

Mr Speaker, before the House adjourned yesterday, I was recounting to the Member for Kebun Baru the progress of cleaning up the Singapore and Kallang Rivers, One notable success in the cleaning up efforts is the reappearance of prawns and crabs in the rivers and the absence of foul stench from the Rochor Canal. Sir, we must remove sources of pollution in order to clean up the rivers and water catchments. Some sources of pollution, such as waste water from households, can be controlled by connecting the premises to sewers. Other sources which cannot be controlled, such as pig farms, street hawkers and squatter pockets, will have to be resettled. The Ministry of the Environment undertook a survey in 1977 to identify all the sources of pollution affecting our rivers and water catchments. A programme was then drawn up to coordinate the efforts of other Ministries to remove the sources of pollution. The main sources of pollution are from pigs and ducks, trade and backyard industries, rundown urban areas, squatter pockets, street hawkers and riverine activities. Under the cleaning up programme, premises have been connected to sawers thereby reducing the number of premises served by nightsoil buckets and over-hanging latrines. Street hawkers have been resited into proper markets and food centres which are provided with anti-pollution facilities. The Ministry is also extending refuse removal service to another 581 premises by December 1981. Except for one, all the pig farms in the Kallang River catchment have been resited or encouraged to change trade. Action is being taken to phase out the last pig farm in the catchment. The progress is in the Annex (Cols. 1225 - 1228) which the Clerk of Parliament will distribute to Members. Annex - PROGRESS OF CLEANING UP PROGRAMME (Cols. 1225 - 1228) Mr Speaker, Sir, the installation of the R2 sewerage system to provide modern sanitation for individual rural premises in Kranji, Pandan, Jurong and western catchments is progressing well. This is evident in Kampong Chantek, Lorong Temechut and Lorong Kebasi areas where they are now much cleaner. A similar programme for the new catchments of Sungei Seletar and Bedok has just started and is targetted for completion in 1984. In the run-down urban areas, the redevelopment programme is being carried out in phases. The areas in Kim Seng Road, Jalan Besar, Sungei Road, Beach Road and Jalan Sultan have already been or are being redeveloped into residential and commercial centres with built-in anti-pollution facilities. However, the progress of the redevelopment of run-down urban areas is expected to slow down owing to difficulties in clearance and resettlement. Meanwhile, all premises in urban areas which are not due for clearance within one year will be required to connect to public sewers. The Port of Singapore Authority is building a wharf and other ancillary facilities at Pasir Panjang for the lighters which now operate along the Singapore River, Kallang Basin and Telok Ayer Basin. These projects are likely to be completed in 1983 or 1984 when the lighters will be relocated. When the sources of pollution have been removed by 1984, there will be a further programme to dredge the rivers and improve the river banks. My Ministry is working closely with the Urban Redevelopment Authority and the PSA on how to improve the appearance of the Singapore River and its immediate environment. For the future, Singapore River will be landscaped with parks and footpaths along the banks. Our citizens will be able to fish in the river in pleasant and relaxing surroundings.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am most thankful to the Minister for his elaborate reply to my rather brief remarks. However, before I withdraw the amendment, I would like to ask the Minister to explain to this House what steps the Ministry is taking to assist those people who have to instal the R2 sewerage system? If the families are unable to bear the expense of constructing the R2 system, will the Ministry provide financial assistance?

Sir, I have an amendment* on this subject. Can I have your permission to speak now so that I need not move that amendment later?

Yes.

The hon. Member for Kebun Baru has touched on the question of the installation of the R2 system. Since I have an amendment on the sewerage scheme in the catchment areas under Subhead MC-05 on Water Pollution Control, entitled "Rural sanitation in Catchment Areas", I shall refer to the R2 system also. The Minister in his reply has provided a Table on the provision of the R2 sewerage systems, listing six catchment areas. I notice that the first column gives the total number of premises required to provide R2 system at start of programme. The second column gives the total number of premises provided with R2 system as at December 1981. The third column gives the balance number of premises to be provided with the R2 system. Under the Development vote, the original project cost is $4.31 million; actual expenditure up to FY 80 was $1.377 million; estimated expenditure for FY 81 was $916,000 and for FY 82 $900,000, leaving a balance of slightly more than $1 million. I take it that this provision would more or less complete this project. 3.00 p.m. But what I wish to bring to the attention of the Hon. Minister is the question why the Ministry of the Environment served AR registered notices (AR stands for Acknowledged Receipt) to many of the residents in Punggol, namely, shops along Punggol Road, kampung houses in Tracks 24 and 26, Lorong Buang Kok and Lorong Renjong, just to name a few, and these notices demand the residents to install the R2 system and to comply within a certain period. The estimated cost of installing this R2 system was projected at $1,370 each. Many of the residents have appealed to me saying that they cannot afford to install the system because they are living in kampung houses.

Hear! Hear!

I hear that even the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development whose constituency is Bukit Panjang may have the same trouble.

Hear! Hear!

I thank him for the "Hear! Hear!". He may also have the same dilemma that I have, namely, the residents have appealed that they cannot afford the high cost of over $1,000. I must say that I have written to the Hon. Minister and, being sympathetic and understanding, he has agreed to allow the installation cost to be paid over a period of five years by way of instalments. But what I wish to point out is that part of Punggol, as I understand it, is not within the catchment area and why should they have to comply with this requirement? Another point I wish to ask of the Hon. Minister is - Why was not a proper survey taken so as to ascertain whether these households really need to install the R2 system? They are mainly served by the bucket system, of course. (I have a question to raise later on on the sewerage system.) Some of these areas which have been served with such notices and to comply with the Ministry of the Environment's requirement, are under clearance. In other words, they will be cleared within a year or two. Therefore, serving them with such notices makes no sense at all. May I know whether the Minister will take steps to have these notices withdrawn? Another problem is that many of these kampung houses are built so close to one another. Some are in the swampy areas. So where is the place to install the R2 system? If a kampung house is in a swampy area, the Hon. Minister can just imagine what happens at high tide. I hope the Hon. Minister will look into this matter.

Sir, there are very few Members of Parliament who still have problems with rural areas. I share the views of the Member for Punggol. In my case there have been cases of my residents having been asked to install sewer connections but they fear that the area could be affected by resettlement. In one particular case, besides being asked to install the R2 system and fearing that the area could be affected by resettlement, the resident found that the Environment Ministry was unable to ensure that there would be nightsoil collection. So this family was caught in a dilemma. When we took up the case with the Ministry, I learned that the Ministry was having staff problems. But in the last few weeks I was told that the problem has been resolved. But the point is this. If the area is due for clearance, I do not think the Government should press for the residents to install sewer connections.

Sir, can I just add to what has been said? I think the same problem is found in Kaki Bukit constituency. Residents have been given notices to clear the area and they are, in fact, waiting to be allocated flats. Here comes the Ministry of the Environment officials asking them to install this R2 system. So I hope the Minister can clarify whether or not there is any coordination between Ministries?

Any more? There being no response -

Sir, I will reply to the Member for Punggol and the Member for Kebun Baru and the rest together. Sir, the provision under this subhead is for subsidizing the construction of R2 sewerage system in Kranji, Pandan, Seletar, Jurong and the western water catchment areas. The R2 is a cheap rural sanitation system suitable for dwellings in rural areas where sewers are not available. The provision of R2 sewerage system in these water catchment areas will also reduce pollution of our reservoirs. A total of 6,300 R2 systems have already been constructed both inside and outside catchment areas. Another 2,700 R2 systems will be constructed by early 1983. The provision of $900,000 for FY 82 will be sufficient for constructing all the R2 systems in catchment areas. Sir, rural premises in non-water catchments are also required to install the R2 system not only to prevent water pollution but also to improve public health by phasing out the nightsoil buckets. The use of nightsoil buckets increases the hazards of infectious diseases. The dwindling workforce of nightsoil workmen will soon not be able to remove all the nightsoil buckets daily. Besides, there have been no new entrants into this occupation. We have therefore no choice but to phase out all the nightsoil buckets in Singapore by 1984. Thus in rural areas where houses are due for clearance within two years, we will not require the occupiers to install the R2 system. Several Members have mentioned the financial hardship that will befall the householders who have been served with notice to install the R2 system. Mr Speaker, Sir, the average cost of constructing the R2 system is about $1,200 to $1,300. This, of course, does not include the cost of installing the sanitary appliances which amount to another $300 to $700, depending on the quality. But for those who face financial hardship, the Government has a scheme to assist them in constructing the R2 system. Families whose combined income is less than $800 per month may take advantage of this scheme by applying to the Sewerage Department. The Sewerage Department will then carry out the work on their behalf and the families can pay back the cost in instalments over a period of five years.

At what rate of interest?

6% per annum interest.

It was increased last month.

In certain cases the Department allows two families to share one R2 system. In swampy areas or areas which are inundated at high tides and where the houses are built on stilts, the R2 system can be constructed on high or raised ground, and this will be just as effective. I have been assured by my officers that this poses no problem to them. However, additional costs will be involved. Sir, the officers of the Sewerage Department do assess the need for R2 system before they serve notices to the residents. Before serving notices, the Sewerage Department will ask the developing agencies to indicate or plan areas which will be developed. In the case of Punggol, this was done before notices to install R2 were served during the second half of 1981. Out of the 270 notices served, there were two cases where HDB subsequently informed the residents that their land would be required for redevelopment. I think one was in Track 6 in Punggol and the other along Punggol Road. As soon as we were informed of this, notices were immediately withdrawn.

Sir, the Minister has given us a very clear answer as to the need for R2 system so that Members of Parliament would now be in a better position to explain to residents of the necessity for construction of these systems. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MA-01 Project 8102 ofthe Development Estimates. Sir, the project is the New Building for the Ministry of the Environment. The total cost is estimated to be $104,300,000. In moving this amendment I merely wish to seek elaboration from the Minister with regard to the provision of $7 million for this new building for his Ministry, since in-principle approval has been given for its construction. As it is indicated that the building will accommodate the various departments of the Ministry of the Environment which are currently dispersed in four locations can the Minister enlighten this House where this building will be sited? (Of course, I am not asking that it be sited in Punggol.) And when will it be completed? Sir, I can just imagine the size of the building since the project costs $104,300,000. 3.15 p.m.

Sir, the Ministry of Finance has given in-principle approval for the construction of a new building for the Ministry of the Environment. The new building will be located at the junction of Scotts Road and Cairnhill Road. It will be a 24-storey building costing about $129 million. The building is expected to be completed by early 1986. The departments of the Ministry are scattered at several places due to inadequate office space at Princess House. The Sewerage and Drainage Departments are renting premises at the World Trade Centre after they have been moved twice since 1972. The lack of a central location for the Ministry is causing undue inconvenience to members of the public who have to travel to the departments located at different places. It also affects the efficiency and productivity of the staff. The new Ministry of Environment building will be able to bring all the departments under the Ministry together. In addition, it will be able to offer an extra 14,779 square metres of office space to other Government departments. The Ministry of Health which is presently renting office space at Cuppage Centre is likely to occupy the extra space in the new Ministry of the Environment building.

Sir, I thank the Minister for his reply and beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

( In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-01 of the Main Estimates. The Ministry of the Environment has in the past few years achieved certain results, whether it be in the field of public health or living environment. I seem to remember that when the Prime Minister officiated at the opening ceremony of the Upper Peirce Reservoir, he said that if within 10 years civil servants could make our rivers and canals so clean and so clear that fish and prawns could live in them, then he would award them with solid gold medals. We all know now that the Singapore River near Parliament House is much clearer and cleaner than before. If any assessment is taken now for award purposes, the civil servants in the Ministry of the Environment should be awarded half a medal. On 18th August last year, the Minister issued a statement on the plan to clean up Singapore River, Kallang Basin and the water catchments by 1987. I hope after 1987 our waterways will not only be clean and clear with fishes swimming in them but green and scenic with plants and greenery along the banks so that our composers may be inspired to compose a song "The Green Singapore River" to rival "The Blue Danube". However, as the saying goes, "It is easier to move mountains than to change human nature". This is very true. We can move and level mountains and reclaim land from the sea. We can clear up rivers and make oases out of deserts. But there are some unhygienic practices which are still deep-rooted in our people, such as spitting and throwing of cigarette buns. These unhygienic practices are commonly seen today. So once again we can see the truth of this old saying. In the hawker centres, and this is what the Member for Whampoa has been very concerned about, the sight of hawkers sticking their thumbs into the soup is still very prevalent. According to the 1980 Report of the Ministry, the number of complaints against hawkers has decreased from 489 in 1977 to 218 in 1979. However, it increased to 236 in 1980. There were also complaints about rats. The number of cases has also increased from 73 in 1977 to 113 in 1980. The problem of rats is becoming increasingly serious. Also, there have been cases of unhygienic food affecting the public, and it mainly occurs in hawker centres, markets as well as restaurants and eating houses. There have been cases of food poisoning caused by unhygienic food, which resulted in vomitting or diarrhoea. The newspapers have also reported cases of unhygienic food being sold in certain supermarkets - cases of alien elements found in the food. I believe many people also have the experience of buying outdated food, such as milk and baby foods, which are harmful to children and babies. I hope that through more positive enforcement of the law and regulations or through education or both, the Ministry will further improve our living environment and foster hygienic habits among our people. In addition, I would like to harp on my old tune by suggesting to the Senior Parliamentary Secretary that coffee shops and small eating shops be allowed to make use of the little space outside their premises to put their tables and chairs. This suggestion was made by several Members in this House before. For example, in 1980, the Members for Jurong and Khe Bong mentioned about it. Last year, the Member for Tiong Bahru reiterated it. Today, two of them have been promoted to higher office. So, it falls on me to once again make a similar request here on behalf of our people. Recently the Member for Rochore made a suggestion that community centres should be allowed to set up "coffee corners" so that the residents can sit around and chit-chat about current affairs. In fact, all along coffee shops and small eating shops have been favourite places for members of the public to hold conversations and chit-chat with fellow members. Their talks range from current affairs to rumours, astronomy to lottery tickets, in fact, anything. If the committee members of the grassroots organizations, such as the Citizens' Consultative Committee and youth bodies, can go to these places and establish close rapport with these people, they will be able to gauge the views of the people on current affairs and their feelings towards Government policies, so that these views and feelings can be conveyed upwards to the Government more effectively. Based on the replies by the Senior Parliamentary Secretary in the past, there are two reasons why he is not willing to accept this suggestion. First, to place chairs and tables outside the coffee shop will cause obstruction to both pedestrian and vehicular traffic. Secondly, it will result in pollution of our environment and the breeding of mosquitoes, insects, cockroaches and rats. As for the first argument, the coffee shops and small eating shops in the old city area might have caused obstruction to traffic during certain hours. But in the new HDB estates, especially in the New Towns, most coffee shops are situated in the corner where there is plenty of open space; and therefore placing chairs and tables outside the coffee shop will not cause obstruction to traffic. As for the second argument, I think there is room for a compromise. The Ministry of the Environment can lay down specific regulations such as the payment of a deposit, compliance with standards of cleanliness, the number of tables and chairs that may be placed outside, and the latest hour when outdoor operations must cease, etc. And if any of these regulations is infringed, the deposit may be forfeited after repeated warnings have been given. I believe there are many shopkeepers who are willing to take up this proposal. To allow the shopkeepers to place chairs and tables outside will first provide a good venue for members of the community to meet and exchange views. Secondly, it will also provide for the need in life of the ordinary people. It will be killing two birds with one stone. I hope this suggestion will receive the serious consideration of the Senior Parliamentary Secretary.

( In Mandarin): Sir, as the Member for Leng Kee has said, this is an old theme; my reply will also be an old reply that I gave in the past. The Ministry of the Environment does not allow eating shops or coffee shops to extend their business beyond their premises to the five-foot way, the road or to other vacant land outside their shops for many reasons. Normally, not less than 25% of the total business area of an eating shop must be used as a kitchen. Otherwise, the eating shop will be congested and the food will be affected, especially in a tropical country like ours. It may lead to decomposition and the breeding of germs, thus posing grave health hazards to the people, resulting in cases such as those described by the Member for Leng Kee - food poisoning caused by an unhygienic environment in the eating shop. If the shopkeeper wishes to extend its area of operations, he must first enlarge the kitchen area and also improve the other facilities. Otherwise his request will not be approved by the authorities. In the past few years our experience has been that if the Ministry of the Environment officials had not been strict in ,their enforcement and had allowed shopkeepers to extend their area of operations to the open space or five-foot way, then after they had closed for the day a lot of litter would be found scattered outside their shops and this rubbish would, of course, breed mosquitoes and insects. And if they were told to clear up the litter, they would just sweep the swill or rubbish into the drain, causing blockage and a stinking smell, and finally all this would have to be cleaned up by our department. I would like to take this opportunity to state our position. In the matter of dealing with public health, the true picture is often different from what the people imagine. Only those who have actual experience of this difficult work would know what it is all about. I would like to take this opportunity to touch on eating shops being unhygienic and the surroundings being in poor condition. The hon. Member said that this is confined to small eating shops in the old city area whereas eating shops in the new housing estates are not so. The fact is that if you go to the coffee shops in the new housing estates, you will notice that the situation is not much different from the old city area. In my own view, I think the main reason is that there are too many stalls in the eating shops, so that little space is available for the customers to sit down to eat or drink. This has led to some shopkeepers extending their business outwards. 3.30 p.m. The Member has also asked whether there could be a compromise, in other words, whether certain regulations, as suggested by him, could be formulated to permit the extension. I have instructed my officers to look into this matter deeper to find out what are the basic regulations that these eating shops should comply for the use of the open space. If they can satisfy the requirements that may be formulated, then they may be allowed to make use of the open space. As regards the five-foot way and the road for operating their business, the chances are slim. I believe my reply is satisfactory to the Member.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Leng Kee has given figures on the increase in the number of rats in Singapore, which he says is a problem with increasing seriousness. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us whether he has received complaints of rats in Parliament House.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I have asked, not only this time but many times in the past, why coffee-shop owners are not allowed to put their tables and chairs outside their premises. What I would like to know from the Senior Parliamentary Secretary is why in some constituencies, particularly the Ministers' constituencies, tables and chairs are allowed to be put outside premises, not only on five-foot ways but also on the roadsides, thus obstructing pedestrians and vehicles. Why is there a discrimination against the hawkers and stall owners in my Constituency and also the constituency of the Member for Leng Kee?

( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, first, I would like to reply to the points raised by the Member for Delta. The statistics were given by the Member for Leng Kee, not me. He has also asked whether I have received complaints of rats in this House. So far, I myself have not seen any rat in Parliament House. As regards the Member for Alexandra, he says that my Ministry takes action only in the constituencies of Members of Parliament and not those of the Ministers. I do not think this is true. If he could give me concrete instances, we will take action to deal with them.

( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to clarify one or two points before I withdraw my amendment. Perhaps the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has misunderstood me. The first point: there is a difference between a city area and a Housing Board estate. In the old built-up areas in the city, the shops have a different kind of environment which might cause obstruction to traffic if tables and chairs are allowed to be put on the five-foot way. In the new Housing Board estates, however, the situation is different. The eating shops are situated in a corner with plenty of open space. So it is not a question of pollution. As regards the point concerning rats, the number quoted has been taken from the statistics of the Annual Report of the Ministry. I do not know whether the figures include rats in Parliament House. The other point is my suggestion of a compromise, and the regulations such as placing of a deposit. His Ministry is now considering it and negotiating with the departments concerned. I would like to know how long would it take his Ministry to arrive at a decision?

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary must surely be aware that in certain older parts of Singapore we find street hawkers and also tables and chairs clogging up the whole street. I would like to know why that situation is allowed to exist. Why is it that in my constituency action is swiftly taken the moment one single table is put outside the premises of the coffee shop?

( In Mandarin): Sir, first, may I answer the Member for Leng Kee? He has asked how long do we take to come to a compromise with eating shop operators. I would say that it may take about one or two months before we can come out with some regulations. He has also mentioned that in some of the newer residential areas there are some open spaces near eating shops to serve the purpose. If the space is on the five-foot way or the road, the possibility is not very great. Many of the residential areas are in the HDB housing estates and under the control of the HDB also. There, eating shops are sited usually in a corner where there is some space for use and may qualify. Sometimes when we take action, some of my staff will tell the Member of Parliament concerned that this extension has been opposed by the Ministry of the Environment. If the Member wants the shopkeepers to be allowed to put some tables out, will he then please make an application? Perhaps after we have stipulated all the regulations, the situation will be clearer. Where there is a bottleneck, I think we can clear it up later on. The Member for Alexandra has said that in certain older areas of the City this situation is allowed to exist. If the Member does not pinpoint any particular area, we would still not be able to know where such a situation exists.

Mr Speaker, Sir, it is his duty to find out where these offences take place, and then to take the necessary action.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has made an observation on the excessive number of stalls in coffee shops. My questions are: first, does he intend to make a review of this situation and, if so, will this also cover coffee shops in the housing estates? Secondly, will this mean a reduction in the number of stalls in the coffee shops? If this is so, would he consider the possibility that the variety of food in the coffee shops will also be reduced? In this regard, would he also consider that certain sections of the community may not be able to take certain types of food for some special reasons. Therefore, the reduction in the variety of food can aggravate the food situation in these areas. Next, I understand that the stalls in the coffee shops pay rentals to the owner of the coffee shops. I wonder what is the rate of rentals. Does his Ministry control the rentals or is it the HDB? With the reduction in the number of stalls in the coffee shops, will the rate of rental per stall be increased? If it is so, will there be a subsequent increase in the price of food sold?

( In Mandarin): Sir, first of all, let me reply to the Member for Alexandra. Of course, taking action is our duty. If, after investigation, we discover some irregularities, then our staff will take action. The Member has made certain allegations. I want him to substantiate his allegation by making specific references to the place, time and, so on; in other words, give me more particulars for me to act upon. The Member for Kampong Kembangan has asked whether we would reduce the number of stalls in the coffee shops. At the moment we are making a study on this matter. When owners of coffee shops and eating shops wish to renew their licences, as I have said, they must be prepared to reserve one-quarter of the total area of the premises for the kitchen where they prepare the food. Otherwise, when they want to renew their licences, we would ask them to make the necessary adjustments. As regards rentals for the eating houses or coffee shops which might cause the price of food in the stalls to be increased, Singapore is an open market. We cannot fix a price on such items of food. Only the stallholders themselves can fix the price. They can decide at what price the food would be acceptable in their areas. But the rentals are not fixed. The stallholders pay rent to the shop owners by private arrangement. Of course, if the rentals of the eating shops are increased, the shop owners will also ask for higher rentals from the stallholders. On the other hand, prices at food centres built with Government subsidy need not necessarily be cheaper than prices in coffee shops out- side. But the main reason is that the hawker stalls are being subsidized. Even when they have poor business, the hawkers can still carry on. If the business is poor, then certain coffee shops will reduce their prices in order to compete for customers in order to survive.

Sir, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has asked me to give specific instances. Now, in Chinatown along Smith Street, Trengganu Street, why are the tables and chairs allowed to be put on the roadside, and why is it that in Alexandra, Leng Kee and Delta they cannot put even one table outside the coffee shop?

( In Mandarin): Sir, I believe this question was posed by other Members in this House in the past for which we gave an appropriate reply. As regards Chinatown area like Smith Street and Trengganu Street, we have issued quite a lot of notices to the offenders. The situation is the same this year. If the business is good, the fine is insignificant to the vendor who is fined. So, they can still carry on with their old ways.

Mr Speaker, Sir, on the question of rats in Parliament House which is of interest to us, I want to know whether the Senior Parliamentary Secretary is aware that our good Friend, the Member for Chai Chee and the Minister of State for Culture, who is in England now, is a rat catcher. Would his department consider employing his services should there be a rat in this Parliament? If this Parliament is so big, I am sure there must be a rat.

Mr Sia, I think that is rather out of order.

Sir, in view of the Senior Parliamentary Secretary's promise to look into my suggestion, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment by leave, withdrawn. 3.45 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-03 Object Group 1310 of the Main Estimates. The Ministry of the Environment has the largest establishment of daily-rated employees in the Government for activities such as sweeping of roads, drains, beaches, sewerage maintenance, nightsoil and refuse disposal services. Singapore has become a clean and beautiful city largely because of the hard work and contribution put in by this group of workers. They work diligently on Sundays and public holidays when most others are enjoying themselves with their families. For the next financial year, some 1,800 daily-rated posts will be deleted, giving an annual saving of $1.67 million. I note that one quarter of the present establishment of over 9,000 daily-rated posts is vacant. Somehow the Ministry has managed to carry this large vacancy without any adverse effect on performance. One reason for this must be the high productivity of the present daily-rated workforce. It is necessary for members of the daily-rated workforce who are hardworking and highly productive to be given proper recognition and adequate rewards. This will no doubt motivate them to give of their best. The working relationship between the daily-rated employees and their supervisors must be closely monitored. The daily-rated employees must be treated with respect. The proposal to mechanize operations is a good move and deserves support. However, in pushing the mechanization proposals we should not forget the welfare of the daily-rated employees. Adequate information on mechanization should be given to them. We must prepare them to adjust to the new work situation. They must be given adequate training to enable them to operate the new machines and equipment efficiently. We must not leave them guessing on what is going to happen to them when the mechanization proposals are introduced. What are the training programmes which will be introduced to upgrade the skills of the daily-rated employees to operate these equipment? In this connection, the older daily-rated employees may find it difficult to follow the training programme. Are there any plans to ensure that they do not suffer as a result of the mechanization programme?

Mr Speaker, Sir, in 1979, the Ministry of the Environment conducted a review on the use of manpower for the various services, for example, refuse collection, public cleansing, etc. Operations were streamlined and new work procedures introduced and more mechanical sweepers were used. As a result, we were able to deploy a reduced workforce to deal with the increased work load. The productivity of the workforce in many of the services had increased. In recognition of the increase in productivity by the workmen, particularly the refuse collection workmen, the Ministry had pushed hard for a salary revision for the various grades of workmen. In 1980, the refuse collection workers were given a 17% increase in their basic wages over and above the NWC awards for improved productivity. I must say our workers have been very cooperative and responded well to the changes in work procedures. In addition, the Ministry also has a scheme whereby deserving and hardworking workers are given monetary awards once every six months. A total of 235 awards are given on each occasion. In view of the difficulties in recruiting workers for cleansing work, my Ministry will continue to explore areas where mechanization can be applied. We shall then be able to pay our employees for the greater skills required. At present, 58 mechanical sweepers are deployed to sweep major arterial roads and highways and other public roads which are accessible to the mechanical sweepers. Sixty-four roads comprising 3,307 sweeping kilometres are covered daily. There is, however, a limit to mechanization. Much of our work still has to be done manually which is the experience even in the developed countries. We have trained our younger workmen for skilled and semi-skilled jobs. In 1980, 30 workmen were trained as greasers to work in various sewerage works. Another 26 workmen will be sponsored for VITB courses under the Skills Development Fund. The Ministry also has a programme to train drivers to operate refuse trucks and mechanical sweepers. The Ministry works very closely with the various daily-rated employees' unions on matters relating to the welfare and working conditions of the workmen. In so far as the mechanization programme is concerned, I am sure both sides have discussed the matter prior to its implementation.

Sir, in view of the extensive mechanization proposals, will the Ministry step up its training programme?

Mr Speaker, Sir, the training programme will certainly be stepped up whenever it is necessary.

Sir, I thank the Minister for his answers. I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-05 Object Group 1210 of the Main Estimates. Many hawkers in food centres are presently operating only part of the day, although the licences issued to them are for the whole day. In order that hawker stalls are fully utilized and to ensure that food is available throughout the day, will the Minister consider issuing separate hawker licences for two sessions a day for the same stall, one in the morning and another in the afternoon? Sir, this move will benefit those hardship applicants who generally need to do hawking to supplement the family income. By granting this group of applicants hawker licences to sell food for half a day, the Minister would greatly help to reduce their financial burden. Sir, if this suggestion is not feasible, would the Minister alternatively consider allowing and encouraging the licensee of the stall to employ more aged people who are medically fit to assist him, so that the licensee can operate the stall for the whole day? In this way, we can also help the aged to be gainfully employed and, at the same time, help to check the increasing social problem of the aged. Another point I would like to mention is whether the Minister is aware of the numerous complaints about the difficulty of getting seats in the food centres on Saturdays and Sundays because of the betting that is taking place in these food centres on these days, resulting in a lot of inconvenience to the customers. I would like to ask the Minister what measures are being taken or will be taken by his Ministry to rectify this situation?

Mr Speaker, Sir, can I also speak now as I have an amendment* on the same topic?

Is it on the same amendment?

Yes, Sir. I share the same concern of my PAP colleagues with regard to the subject of hawkers and hawker stalls. I am aware of the good job done by the Hawkers Department in clearing the streets, car parks and roads of hawkers and resiting them in hawker centres. There are now, I believe, more than 30,000 licensed hawker stalls housed in the Ministry of the Environment food centres or markets, or those managed by the statutory boards like the Housing and Development Board. But I think there are still a large number of hawkers operating in backlanes, side-streets or even temporary food centres. I think operating a hawker stall, particularly a cooked food stall, is a very lucrative business, considering the many requests made by my constituents every week at my Meet-the-People sessions. Let me comment on three aspects of hawker control under the responsibility of the Ministry. First, regarding the issue of hawker licences. I understand that the Government's policy towards hawkers is one of containment and that no new hawker licences will be issued except on the grounds of financial hardship. One of the conditions to be satisfied before an application is considered as a hardship case is that the total family income of the applicant should not exceed $500 per month, particularly for a four-member family. This income ceiling level should be raised, particularly if we take into consideration the present cost of living. If an applicant can give a true breakdown of his family's living expenses and show that despite his total family income which is more than $500, it is still not enough, then he should be classified as a hardship case. I also understand that single persons who are over 40 years old and who are gainfully employed, even though their income is meagre, for example, an odd-job worker, will not be considered for hawker licences. My point is that many residents have applied for cooked food hawker licences because they want to earn something extra to supplement their present income which is not sufficient. May I suggest that the Ministry review the criteria used for classifying an applicant as a hardship case? 4.00 p.m. Secondly, I would like to draw the attention of the Ministry to the resiting of hawkers. I have had many cases of hawkers who have been resited into Kaki Bukit constituency because of resettlement. They have had good business in their former hawker stall sites but they have now been resited into markets which are already noted for poor business. I wonder whether the Ministry, when considering resiting hawkers, can make sure that they are resited into places where they can at least get more or less equal business. I know there are difficulties facing the Ministry, but I think the Ministry should consider sympathetically the requests made by these hawkers who are to be resited, because if their income is affected, it will cause hardship to the whole family. The third point I would like to bring up concerns prices of food being sold at these hawker stalls. Eating at hawker stalls has become a way of life for most Singaporeans. But it is noted that prices of food vary from one food centre to another. May I ask whether there are ways and means - I know this is difficult - by which the Ministry can ensure that the prices put up by hawkers at all these market stalls are reasonable and at least not too exorbitant or probably at the level that the residents can afford.

Dr Ow, would you like to speak on the same subhead?

I am not speaking, Sir.

( In Mandarin): Sir, first, let me reply to what the Member for Ang Mo Kio has asked. He has requested that hawker licences for two sessions for the same hawker stall be given to the hawkers. I would say that this practice is already in force at the moment to enable the members of their family of the licensee to run the stall. But if a stall is rented to two separate persons, we have learned from our experience that this creates a lot of problems. Generally hawkers who live in village areas need a lot of space to store their goods and trading implements. (At the moment over 70% of our population are living in HDB housing estates.) If we allow two sessions, then the morning session hawker may have to bring home all his trading implements. As it is, the present HDB hawker stall is not able to accommodate all such paraphernalia. This is the first problem. Another problem is that this practice will give rise to disputes about time. For instance, the morning session and the second session hawkers may argue about the division of time. One would ask the other to clear up quickly or to clean up the place before leaving, etc. Therefore, we think it is best to allot such licences to members of the same family in order to avoid such quarrels. He also mentioned about allowing hawker stalls to employ aged people. At the moment we allow each stall to employ three assistants who are acquainted to the stallholder. In the past there have been quarrels among stallholders over the number of assistants because the space for each stall is limited. If a stall should employ many assistants, then quarrels between the assistants as well as between the stallholders will arise. So to avoid such disputes we allow only a maximum of three assistants to each stall. As regards extending the time, the Member should realize that even our labour laws stipulate that every worker is allowed to work for a maximum of eight hours per day. So the maximum number of hours of work per week is not more than 44. In fact, a stallholder will need certain time to prepare the food possibly at home, in addition to the normal eight hours working at the stall. So there is a certain limit to human physical endurance and ability. We have studied these problems before and we have come to the present arrangement based on our experience. The Member also mentioned about the stalls being occupied by people who bet on horses on Saturdays and Sundays resulting in customers not getting seats for themselves. You will agree that betting or gambling is a bad practice. Yet there are people who are fond of it. But this problem is not peculiar to the hawker stalls only. At other public places and eating stalls in coffee houses, the same problem exists, particularly on race days. I think this is a matter for the police and I hope they will pay attention to this problem and will take necessary action to curb this practice of betting and gambling on horses at hawker stalls. In answer to the Member for Kaki Bukit on application for stall licence for reasons of hardship, I would say we define "hardship" as a family receiving an income of less than $500. Sometimes we have to review the circumstances of the applicant and sometimes we are flexible. In the situation which he mentioned, that is, because of inflation the monetary value has been decreased, we may consider this point in our definition of family income and raise the ceiling a bit. He also mentioned about the great number of applications for food stalls. At the moment we are short of food stalls. There are now about 2,000-odd back-lane hawkers trading in open spaces who need to be resited in food centres or markets as and when vacancies occur. If these backlane hawkers are not too particular about their trade, such as selling fruits, drinks or similar type of food, they can take up vacancies in the older centres quite soon, because usually empty stalls are available there. But because of their peculiar situation, they want a certain amount of space or they want to trade at certain locations. Of course, this makes it difficult for us to meet their needs. Another problem is about the location of hawkers. They want to move to a place near to their homes. We have always made arrangements with maximum convenience to them so that they can trade near their place of residence. But whether or not they can get the same volume of business in their new site is something which is difficult for us to resolve because the basic income of a hawker depends on many factors. For example, if a hawker is in the cooked food business, much depends on his price and his attitude towards his customers, and there are also other related factors which will determine whether or not his business will be good. If a hawker experiences poor business and asks our Department to help, we can only go so far as to allot a location nearer to his home or choice where possible. This is something that we can do to help. If the hawker's request for help depends on personal factors, we cannot help him. As regards fixing of prices and standardization of prices, we cannot do this because Singapore is an open market. If we want to control prices, then we have to control every kind of goods and not just hawker food. Whatever the hawker sells, it will first have to go through the importers, the wholesalers and dealers before he can get his supplies. If we control the prices of a hawker who is doing petty business and yet we do not exercise any control over the prices of the larger concerns, then we are not being fair. Since ours is a free market the prices will have to find their own levels. Only when a hawker does not provide good food or demands a high price, then if someone or some organization comes out and complain it may affect his business. Just a few days ago I read in the Sin Chew Jit Poh an article by a reader about the prices charged by some hawkers. He reasoned that today Singaporeans do not mind paying more pro- vided they could get better quality food, There are such people. So this is a matter also for the customers to decide. 4.15 p.m. The other factor concerning prices depends also on the quality and quantity of food. We cannot tell the hawkers what is the kind of food or how nourishing it should be, or what price they should charge. This we cannot do. If the food lacks nourishment, of course, this will affect the hawker's business. But this is something for the hawker himself to tackle. In our open economy we will leave all this to the people concerned. If he wants to have good business, it will depend mainly on the hawker himself. I think this is the most reasonable and effective way to go about it.

( In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to touch upon the answers given by the Senior Parliamentary Secretary. In the new food centres, if the hawker could make some proper arrangement with members of his family, then will the Ministry issue to him the so-called vocational licence? He has mentioned that one person cannot work for too long. Because of this, I made the suggestion that the working hours should be divided into morning session and afternoon session, whereby two separate vocational licences can be issued for the same stall for the two sessions. When I mentioned about the people who were betting on horses and occupying seats in the hawker centres, what I mean is that since the hawker stalls are in a public establishment and are subsidized by way of paying cheap rentals, then they are supposed to render some service. So if these gamblers occupy the seats on Saturdays and Sundays, then the customers in the vicinity who need to be served by the hawkers would not be able to get seats and service. If an HDB flat is found to be used for gambling, the HDB will repossess it under its regulations. We should therefore not leave it to the police to do something about it. Since it is a public place, we should not allow a hawker centre to be occupied by horse-betting gamblers. So the Hawkers Department as well as the HDB, whoever is in charge of the place, should have the right to take the necessary action to deal with this problem.

Sir, I would like to touch on the point regarding control of prices levied by hawkers. I understand that the army and also private companies which run canteens are able to decide on the prices of the food items sold, the quantity and so on. In the case of food centres under the control of the Ministry of the Environment, surely the same can be done when it issues the licences, because the hawkers pay the same rental for a stall either in a food centre in one housing estate or in another place.

( In Mandarin): Sir, let me first answer the Member for Ang Mo Kio. He said that if there is a member or a relative of the family who can help the hawker, then he should be issued with a vocational licence to trade. This question will need special consideration. We will have to study it carefully. Perhaps this may help us in the formulation of regulations for the hawker stall concerned. We will consider his suggestion seriously. On the matter of hawkers who allow gamblers to occupy the seats on Saturdays and Sundays, I believe it is not just the stallholders who indulge in it but also their customers. I wonder if the example mentioned by him occurred in an HDB-controlled hawker centre. If so, I do not know whether the HDB has taken any action against them. If it is a hawker centre under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of the Environment, and the Hawkers Department is satisfied that such an activity is taking place, then despite it being a police matter, we will certainly take immediate action to cancel the licence of the hawker stall concerned if there is evidence to support it and if a court has found him guilty of the offence. As regards the Member for Kaki Bukit's comment about control of food prices in canteens run by army camps and private companies, as far as I know, food prices in certain factories have been fixed and put under control because the factories give subsidies to the stallholders so that the food can be cheaper and their workers need not go out of the factory. This is done for the sake of efficiency. But the number of workers or people in the organization or factory is very small and the stalls are also limited in number. So it can be easily controlled. But there is a greater number of hawkers under our control and we find it difficult to exercise control over food prices. In the Armed Forces, since it is a disciplined organization it will be easier for them to exercise control over prices of food items. I also believe that food prices depend on rentals and since they are given cheaper rentals the hawkers would be able to sell food items at cheaper prices. As I have said, Singapore is a free market. People of all trades are allowed to sell their goods at their own prices. If we control the prices of food sold by hawkers while the prices of other items are not subject to control, then I would not agree to this kind of logic.

( In Mandarin): Sir, let me mention once again about the question of betting. My constituency is an HDB housing estate. The hawker centre is under the management of HDB. In the first place, the Ministry of the Environment allotted stalls to the hawkers in the hawker centre in the HDB estate. If these stallholders who live in HDB flats can sell their goods at cheaper prices, then our cost of living could be lower and it will benefit everyone. What I mean to say is that although the licence is given to the hawkers the right or control over the stalls still remains in the hands of the HDB or the Hawkers Department under the Ministry of the Environment. As I said, when the HDB finds that any occupier misuses his flat by carrying out illegal activities, then the HDB can recover the flat. Likewise, the Hawkers Department can also exercise similar power and right over public places like hawker centres which are built at public expense and are meant for the benefit of the public. We should not shift the buck from one department to another department, say, to the HDB or to the Police. Since I have received some complaints, I am bringing them up here to see if the matter can be resolved by the Hawkers Department which is an ideal central organization to deal with such matters. The question is how do people liaise with these horse bettors. Of course, they must have certain telephones or even secret codes when they bet on horses. So we can try to control the use of telephones. When we issue a licence to a hawker, we have, of course, the right to say that he is not allowed to install a certain number of telephones, and so on. If the Hawkers Department can exercise such control, then perhaps we can do something about it. This can be done with the advice and guidance of the community leaders and then, where necessary, we can consider withdrawing the licence.

( In Mandarin): Sir, talking about exercising control, we do not want to play tai chi or shadow-boxing. When the hawkers were allowed to trade along the streets, they got a licence from us, and when they moved into the stalls controlled by the HDB they were also given a licence. And when they moved into an HDB hawker centre upon allocation, they are issued with a licence and their position is like that of a tenant under a contract or agreement with the HDB. It is not too difficult to cancel the leasing agreement with them. On the question of installing telephones for betting purposes, if we say that the telephone is evidence of having committed a certain illegal act or crime, then it is not very tenable, because many people have telephones. We cannot say that all those people who have telephones are engaged in horse betting. I think it is not a logical argument. Also it will be difficult to implement such policies. If we want to implement certain policies or measures, we must have facts and evidence to act upon. Do we close down the Turf Club so that there will be no horse racing and therefore the people cannot bet on horses? Although this is the most effective way, it is not possible. Some people take horse betting as a form of recreation. The question lies in what is legal horse betting and what is not legal horse betting. That is the only difference. Coming back to the question of horse betting in hawker centres, we cannot say that we are cancelling their licence because of this activity. There is as yet no such regulation. So we only can act when there is a police action. Then in pursuance of such police action, when a hawker has been convicted for illegal activities, then we can cancel his licence issued to him. When this happens, then maybe the hawker will give better service to his customers and not misuse his stall. I shall convey this to the relevant department in the HDB.

In view of the explanation given by the Senior Parliamentary Secretary, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-07 Object Group 1210 of the Main Estimates. Sir, I note that the Ministry of the Environment will be spending more on Vector Control in the coming financial year. Does this mean that we are now having more problems with vectors, particularly mosquitoes? Mosquito nuisance is a frequent complaint from our residents. Can the Minister inform the House whether the incidence of mosquito breeding has increased, and whether his Ministry has new programmes to deal with the problem?

Sir, vector control is a labour-intensive activity with limited scope for mechanization. Manpower costs account for 90% of the expenditure for this activity. The increase in cost for this activity is due to increases in wages for manpower from about $9.4 million last year to $10.7 million this year, or an increase of about 14%. We have reduced the manpower in this activity. Otherwise the increase in manpower costs would have been greater. 4.30 p.m. Mr Speaker, Sir, the number of daily-rated employees was reduced from 1,470 to 939. At the same time, the number of monthly-rated employees increased from 204 to 266 to enhance supervision of the daily-rated employees. The additional 62 officers were redeployed from other departments in the Ministry following reorganization. We have also reduced the use of anti-malarial oil. The consumption has been reduced from a monthly average of about 64,000 litres in 1975 to about 27,000 litres in 1981. We were able to reduce manpower and the use of anti-malarial oil without affecting the standard of vector control because we have been eliminating or controlling the primary sources of mosquito breeding. The need for recurrent oiling is, therefore, reduced. The primary sources of breeding grounds are usually in sunken drains, vacant land and construction sites. Where possible, these breeding grounds will be removed. The ground puddles on vacant land will be filled and sunken drains will be repaired. The Public Works Department has been very cooperative and since 1979 they have repaired an average of 41,000 metres of sunken drains each year. The programme is still going on. A tighter surveillance is maintained on construction sites to prevent mosquito breeding. Mosquito breeding in homes, however, still remains a problem. We will continue to mount an intensive public health education campaign to inform our public how to prevent breeding of mosquitoes at home. This public education programme is carried out with the assistance of schools and grassroots organizations in various constituencies. Overall vector control has progressed and improved over the years. Although there are still complaints about mosquitoes, the number of complaints has, in fact, reduced from 1,453 in 1979 to 1,418 in 1980 and further reduced to 1,204 in 1981. The success in our vector control programme has resulted in a reduction of mosquito-borne diseases, such as dengue haemorrhagic fever or malaria. In fact, there has been no major outbreak of dengue haemorrhagic fever and malaria in recent years. This is a credit to Singapore as we are situated in a region that is endemic to vector-borne diseases. Recently, the World Health Organization sent officers down to Singapore to evaluate whether Singapore is malaria-free. We are awaiting the decision of the WHO.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-08 of the Main Estimates. Sir, in the Memorandum on the Budget, at page 23, mention is made of a drop in the overall manpower in the Ministry of the Environment which is able "to delete a total number of 115 monthly-rated posts or 5% of the current establishment." While this results in a saving of $1.18 million, I am concerned about the reduction of staff for the Quarantine Services. At page 180 of the Estimates, it is stated under Quarantine Services that for Medical establishment, two posts are abolished; General Nursing, 10 posts are abolished, and for Public Health Inspectorate, two posts are abolished. Will this reduction not affect efficiency, particularly at the Airport, where large numbers of tourists and other persons arrive throughout the year? What about those who come in by ship? Will Singapore not be exposed to the introduction of infectious diseases? I am fully aware, Sir, that health certificates for small pox and cholera are no longer required, but I am talking of other infectious diseases. The question is whether a reduction in the number of staff in the Quarantine Services will not lead to a greater exposure of Singapore to infectious diseases.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the reduction in staff for the Quarantine Services is in respect of Changi Airport. The Quarantine staff at our seaport are not affected. The best safeguard against the introduction and transmission of infectious diseases is to ensure that diseases cannot take root in Singapore. Over the last two decades, we have strengthened the home defences by building up a strong public health infrastructure, by providing environmental sanitation, educating our people on the preventive aspects of infectious diseases and minimizing breeding grounds for vectors which transmit such infectious diseases. We have a high standard of environmental sanitation. Our water supply is clean and reliable. We have an efficient and effective waste disposal system. With these measures, we have been able to minimize the recurrence and spread of many infectious and vector-borne, food-borne and water-borne diseases such as malaria, typhoid and cholera. With the improvement in the overall environmental standards, a review of the quarantine procedures at the Airport was carried out last year. It was found that it was unnecessary for passengers entering Singapore to declare any health papers except for those from South America and Africa, who must be vaccinated against yellow fever. Consequently, first-line health checks at the Airport could be carried out by Immigration officers. As a result, 18 posts of the Quarantine staff at the Airport were deleted. Faster clearance of passengers entering Singapore has now been achieved without any compromise in our port health standards.

Sir, I am grateful to the Hon. Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MC-01 Object Group 1210 of the Main Estimates. Sir, water supply is a lifeline of any country. Singapore has done admirably well to supply to her people clean piped water. As Singapore is only about 600 square kilometres in area, virtually the whole island is a catchment area. Because of this requirement, every effort is taken by our Government to prevent pollution of the raw water flowing into our reservoirs. This policy has the general support of all Singaporeans. Bukit Batok constituency includes large pieces of rural land. Those of my constituents who live in Jurong and Choa Chu Kang areas have done quite a bit to help in keeping our water clean for the common good of the whole of Singapore. The Government, as a whole, must also look after their welfare, wherever possible. For quite some time now, a few hundred of my constituents living along Jalan Bandar area, off Choa Chu Kang Road, are faced with an insoluble problem. They have been making bean cakes and similar items of food in their zinc-roof houses for a few decades. As that area has no proper sewerage system, they have been summoned many times and ordered to cease operation by the Ministry of the Environment. They wish to obey the orders very much. But they face the dilemma of going hungry or facing repeated summons and fines. I have advised them to move to areas where there is a sewerage system, but they could not find any place which is within their means to move to. They have tried to change their trade but did not succeed. Since it is the announced policy of the Government to provide sewerage for the whole island, may I ask the Minister for the Environment to give priority in constructing sewerage system for that area so that they could be allowed to continue with their trade?

Mr Ng Kah Ting, would you like to join in the debate under this particular subhead?

Yes, Sir. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak so that I need not move my other amendments.* For FY 82, about $211 million will be spent on the Sewerage programme under the Main and Development Estimates. Of course, the good work done by the Sewerage Department in providing modern sanitation is appreciated. But I must say that more could be done. For example, certain parts of Punggol have yet to have a sewerage system. I would like to ask the Hon. Minister that whilst about 82% of the population are served with modern sanitation, what is the number of households or families this 82% represents? How does our sewerage system compare with other countries? What are the measures taken to reclaim waste water for use by industries and households, and what measures have been taken to control water pollution except for the report earlier on this afternoon, and whether the Minister can elaborate further on that? Lastly, what plans are there to trap as much water as possible since Singapore enjoys good rainfall each year? 4.45 p.m.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are only 17 bean cake manufacturers in Jalan Bandar and these are located in the Kranji water catchment. The manufacture of bean cake requires large quantities of water which have to be disposed of as waste water. At present, the 17 bean cake manufacturers are discharging the waste water into water courses, which pollutes the Kranji Reservoir. We need to protect our reservoirs from pollution so that our citizens can have clean piped water for consumption. On the other hand, the nearest sewer available is in Jurong East New Town, To extend this sewer to the bean cake manufacturers would cost $3 to $5 million. It is therefore uneconomical to extend the sewer to these 17 bean cake manufacturers at such a huge cost. The rural sanitation system, called the R2, cannot cope with such a large volume of highly polluted waste water. It is therefore not suitable for this cottage manufacturing industry. Mr Speaker, Sir, the Ministry has been sympathetic to the plight of the bean cake manufacturers and has given various periods of extension to enable them to find alternative sites. After we first served notice in January 1978, the 17 manufacturers were given extensions of 12 months, then six months and another six months up to January 1980, to move out of the area. Following appeals in June 1980, the Ministry deferred enforcement action on these bean cake manufacturers until December 1981. The bean cake manufacturers therefore have been given more than ample time, four years altogether, to find alternative sites. I am sure the Member for Bukit Batok will agree with me that for the benefit of the larger population in Singapore, these 17 bean cake manufacturers should therefore resettle to a sewered area designed for food manufacturing. In this respect, perhaps the Member for Bukit Batok can seek the assistance of the Minister for National Development to find such a place. As for the Member for Punggol, from FY 77 to FY 80, the Government spent about $584 million on sewerage development projects to provide modern sanitation to our people. We have a total of six major sewage treatment works, 1,500 small sewage treatment plants, 1,550 kilometres of sewers and 122 pumping stations. Daily, about half a million cubic metres of waste water is treated by these installations. To-date, about 440,000 households or 88% of the total households in Singapore are enjoying modern sanitation. Besides serving households, a comprehensive sewerage network is also provided for industries, trade and commercial premises. Therefore, in terms of population equivalent served by modern sanitation, Singapore records a very high 82% compared with 79% for West Germany, 74% for the USA and 30% for Japan. Singapore is an urbanized society. It is necessary for us to have an effective system for the immediate removal of sewage and waste water which is a constant source of pollution and infection. Without such an advanced sanitation system, it would be difficult to control any outbreak of water-borne diseases in our urbanized and crowded environment. As a result of our extensive sewerage system, we have successfully prevented outbreaks of water-borne diseases such as cholera, typhoid and dysentery. The high level of sanitation is also necessary to prevent pollution in our water catchments, the major part of which is unprotected. Mr Speaker, Sir, it is our policy to extend the sewerage system to serve the entire population of Singapore wherever feasible and within economic reach. However, in the rural areas it is uneconomical to extend sewers to premises which are scattered over a large area. Punggol is a rural area. The northern part of Punggol has been developed for pig farming. The widely scattered households living in the area will install a simple rural sewerage system known as R2 designed by our Sewerage Department. The Housing and Development Board is developing the southern part of Punggol as part of the Hougang New Town. This area will be sewered. When the Hougang New Town project is completed in the next few years, the Member for Punggol will have no cause to raise this matter in this House again. Mr Speaker, Sir, we are trying to conserve all our water resources by removing all sources of pollution from protected and unprotected water catchment areas. Only non-pollutive light industries and limited residential development are allowed in catchment areas. We also try to reclaim waste water for use by industries and households. The Jurong Industrial Water Works reclaims some 20,000 cubic metres of waste water daily from the Ulu Pandan Sewage Treatment Works. The reclaimed water is used by 39 industries in Jurong and 5,658 units of flats for toilet flushing.

Mr Speaker, Sir, thank you for allowing me to speak. I would like to join the hon. Member for Bukit Batok in appealing on behalf of bean cake manufacturers, because I happen to have a few in my constituency also. I would like to ask the Hon. Minister, in view of the fact that these people have been asked to give up their livelihood, their traditional business, for the sake of the rest of Singapore so that we can have better water, whether he would be kind enough to assist in negotiating with the Ministry of National Development to give priority to these people in the allocation of either HDB or JTC premises?

Mr Speaker, Sir, I have in fact taken up the matter with the Ministry of National Development. However, the efforts so far have not been successful. Nevertheless, in view of the appeal of the Member for Nee Soon, I shall try again.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Hon. Minister has not replied to my last question, i.e. the measures taken to trap water in view of the reasonably good rainfall that we enjoy. I was thinking of the drainage system. In this respect, the then Minister for the Environment disclosed in this House that if we can trap, say, 10% of the heavy rainfall, then we will have an abundant water supply in Singapore.

Sir, I thought I have replied to that question in my reply just now. The first thing to do is to control pollution of our catchment areas so that all the water flowing into our catchment areas will not be polluted.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng has spoken on his amendment No. (11). The sum of $167,281,410 for Head M ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $259,595,000 for Head M ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates,

I propose to take the Suspension now. Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at 5.30 p.m. Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.58 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.30 p.m.

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

Head S - The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement:- Mr Tang See Chim: (1) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead SB-01 of the Main Estimates. (2) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead SB-02 of the Main Estimates. Mr Ng Kah Ting: (3) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead SB-03 of the Development Estimates.

Amendments No. (1) and (2) have been withdrawn. Mr Ng, amendment No. (3).

Sir, I am not moving.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead SC-02 of the Main Estimates. Sir, in moving this amendment, I would like to express some concern in this House over two matters relating to trade marks in Singapore. The first involves the registration of trade marks and I would like to relate my own experiences concerning the registration of trade marks. I have been involved in making applications through my solicitors for registering trade marks, and I find that the process of getting a trade mark registered and approved takes a rather long time. From the time an application is submitted to the Registry of Trade Marks, it takes about a year before a reply is forthcoming from the Registrar as to whether there is any objection to the trade mark concerned. Then it has to be gazetted and, by the time it is finally approved, it takes all in all about two years. I find this is rather long because it then hampers the manufacturers who need formal approval of the trade marks in order that they may carry out their marketing activities. I have been informed that part of the reason for this delay is because in the Registry of Trade Marks there are only two legal officers and there is a backlog of work. The job is not made easier for lawyers who have to go through the intricacies of making searches at the Registry because a lot of the documents are not properly indexed. Sir, if we are to encourage our manufacturers to shift away from purely contract work and to market their products under their own brand names, I think we will have to do something to expedite the process of registering trade marks. My question is whether we could not have more legal officers in the Registry to expedite the process and can we not, to some extent, computerize some of the information in the Registry? The other matter I wish to raise under this amendment concerns the counterfeiting of trade marks. Singapore has gained a reputation as a manufacturing centre but at the same time it must not gain notoriety as a centre for fakes or imitation goods. Sir, in recent years there have been a few cases of people caught making imitation goods, i.e. they produced goods similar to those of well-known brands and they labelled these goods with the names of these well-known brands. When they are caught and brought to court, the sentences are very light. This is because under the Trade Marks Act (Chapter 206 of the Revised Edition), the penalty for counterfeiting is an imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year or to a fine not exceeding $2,000 or to both. The Hon. Minister can correct me if I am wrong, but I think in most of the recent cases the culprits concerned have got off with only very light sentences. If we think of the amount of money they must have raked in by passing off the imitation goods as genuine items, one is inclined to believe that the light sentence or the small fine imposed on them makes the whole venture quite a worthwhile proposition. So I think we have to tighten our laws to protect our manufacturers as well as our investors. My question to the Hon. Minister is whether he will consider amending the existing laws so as to enhance the penalties under the Trade Marks Act.

Sir, can I first deal with the Member's second point about counterfeiting and the penalties that are imposed? At the moment I cannot say whether these penalties should be enhanced. There have been a few cases. Perhaps they were treated leniently; perhaps correctly too. I have no details of the cases but we are always open to suggestions. The Member has suggested that the penalty for counterfeiting should be increased. I can assure him that we will give it consideration. This depends, of course, on the number of cases and whether they have increased recently. On the Member's first point about delays in trade mark registration, I understand that a trade mark, if nothing goes wrong and there are no objections, can be registered in about 16 to 17 months. This is quite some time, but there are difficulties in the procedures. First, the Registrar upon receiving an application must look at and examine the mark to see whether it is a registrable trade mark under section 10 (1) of the Act which provides that a mark must comply with certain features. It must be a distinct mark. That having been done, he must make a search. There are thousands of trade marks registered in the Registry. There are 34 classes, two parts (Part A and Part B). On receipt of an application, the Registry has to go through thousands of these registered marks and also those that are pending to find out or ascertain whether there are similar or identical trade marks. This takes quite a bit of time, sometimes five to six months. That having been done, the mark is then registered in the Government Gazette. I believe the printers take some time to print. Thus some more delay. Then the mark is allowed to rest there for two months so that anyone who wants to object can object. Thereafter the mark proceeds to registration. Recently there has been an increase in the number of applications. I have the figures here. From about 3,000 applications in 1972 it went up to 5,876 in 1981. This is due to our industrial and commercial development. Presently, the Registrar receives an average of 490 applications a month. As for staff, the Member is right. I understand that although there has been an increase in the number of staff by the addition of five more clerks, two more typists and two more record keepers since 1972, that is 10 years ago, there has been no corresponding increase in the number of senior staff. Since 1974 there have been only two legal officers and three executive officers, with a high turnover rate of executive officers. We will see what we can do to increase the staff. As for computerization, we have raised this matter but I am afraid the Computer Services Department and the Management Services Department are of the opinion that it is not feasible to computerize the present manual procedure of searching word marks, surnames and geographical names. However, the matter is still being pursued. There have been some measures already taken to improve efficiency in the Registry. I understand that two Word Processors will be installed for the coming financial year. Further ways and means to improve procedures and reduce the time will be looked into, but I am not very optimistic about reducing the time for trade mark registration.

Sir, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $37,151,350 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $38,138,000 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. Head K -

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head K be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead KB-01 of the Main Estimates*. Sir, it has often been asserted that our reservists form the very backbone of our defence capability. They form the bulk of our trained servicemen. Besides combat readiness for operational duties, an essential factor that enhances the performance of these reservists is the continued esprit de corps among the members. There should also be rapport, understanding, mutual trust, and confidence as well as camaraderie among each reservist unit. These basic tenets of unity are instilled in them during the course of their full-time National Service training. My query now is what further steps are being taken to ensure that this spirit of devotion and dedication is sustained and enhanced while the men are in the Reservist Units. I believe that there should be occasions for this group of devoted servicemen to meet one another not only during in-camp training but also on other informal occasions where besides the reservists themselves, members of their families could also be present. Thus the bond of comradeship can be further strengthened.

Sir, I share the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Pasir Panjang. Sir, in national defence the Singapore Armed Forces has a critical role to play to ensure the security of our Republic. This point cannot be over-emphasized. In this respect I will come straight to the point. A total provision of some $1.66 billion have been set aside for both the recurrent and development expenditure for the coming financial year. This total provision represents a mere increase of 13.5% over FY 81. At this rate, it is lower than the annual growth rate of 16.6% over the previous years, i.e. FY 78-81. Sir, we have no standing army and so we have to rely solely on our citizens to form the backbone of our defence. Nevertheless we must be realistic to the hard fact that there is a need for modernization in our Armed Forces, vis-a-vis the acquisition of more sophisticated weaponry. The Ministry of Defence is about 15 years old. I am just wondering if this sum of $1.66 billion is adequate to meet the objectives of the Armed Forces Programme. For example, Sir, I see under the development estimates an appropriation of $150 million. This, Sir, appears to be on the low side. I am quite sure that maybe some of the weaponry or equipment that our Armed Forces have may be obsolete or can even be classified as vintage. Therefore, I hope the Hon. Minister of Defence will assure the House that the provision for both the Main and Development Estimates for the Armed Forces Programme is adequate to ensure the security of Singapore.

Sir, I wish to join my colleagues in expressing our concern whether the Singapore Armed Forces is reliable enough to ensure the security of our country. A large part of our national resources has been devoted towards building up our Armed Forces. This is particularly to ensure that our Republic will be left in peace to pursue objectives for the good of our people. We cannot afford a large standing army. Towards this end, therefore, we have developed a unique system of national service by which thousands of our young citizens are trained as soldiers each year. Our citizens must be trained. We must instil in their hearts and minds that they must not look upon the defence of Singapore as a two or three-year affair. In this respect I would like to raise a few questions on how the Singapore Armed Forces train our national servicemen, and also what kind of conditions and service are provided for to ensure that our young people have a liking to continue serving in the Army and are ready to go for reservist training or in-camp training whenever they are called upon to do so. 5.45 p.m. From my experiences in dealing with parents whose children have been sent for national service training, I notice that there is always a reluctance on the part of national servicemen and also on the part of parents to continue going for national service training or to accept the call to go for training for 2 1/2 years. Many reasons have been given for this reluctance despite the fact that we have tried to explain the rationale that their children have an obligation to go for national service training and help in the defence of the country. I had the opportunity yesterday to visit Bedok Camp and held a discussion with the officer in charge. I also had a discussion with a few soldiers on their training in their camp. They said that they are well treated in the camp. They are given three meals a day and sometimes they are given night snacks whenever they go out for training. They are even allowed to go home but they must come back to the camp before 11.30 p.m. Personally, for the 2 1/2 years while they are in the camp, they are supposed to be trained to be disciplined soldiers so that they can really fight when they are called upon to do so. But what they are not quite satisfied with is the $90 allowance that they are given. To them $90 is not enough, although they know that this is just a training allowance. In fact, they are there for training. But then they have to pay for transport, and although they are given three meals a day they have to spend money during the tea break or coffee break at the canteen. They also have to spend on cigarettes, and they also have to go out. They said that during week ends they have to date their girl-friends. So they find that $90 is not sufficient. I wonder whether the Ministry of Defence would consider reviewing the $90 allowance, particularly for the ordinary soldier. Of course, there are soldiers who are given vocational allowance if they are working as drivers, clerks and so on. Parents have also mentioned that their children still depend on them for pocket allowance. They suggested that the Ministry should consider increasing the allowance so that they will not have to carry the burden of looking after them when they go home during weekends. Another area of concern that I would like to mention is this. Why do our young citizens not look upon service in the Army with pride? They do not look upon it as their responsibility. Personally if I am called up for national service, I would like to come forward. I do not know whether there is a scheme for people who are more than 40 years old to come forward. What I am very concerned about is whether our soldiers have that strong feeling to defend the country. Probably they should be convinced of the rationale that it is their duty to defend the country. I believe it is not only the ability to fight that really makes a person a soldier but it is the will and the belief that he has in himself. I wonder whether, in training our soldiers, besides making them physically fit or fighting fit, there is a systematic training of the mind to instil in them a conviction that they must defend the country. Probably there should be some kind of political orientation. Maybe you need a political commissar to train our soldiers or our officers particularly. I wonder whether the Singapore Armed Forces has that kind of training to instil in the minds of our young soldiers that they have an obligation to defend their country. For the time being, I rest on these two questions first.

Sir, I share some of the sentiments of my colleague, although my experiences with the parents in Telok Blangah are slightly different. Singaporeans are a lucky people because we have the benefit of a good Government. As can be seen from the facts presented by the Minister for Trade and Industry recently, we never had it so good. People nowadays are better off because, amongst other things, they are prepared to work ,harder, given the stable conditions for them to progress and prosper. Although our rate of inflation is low when compared to the rates in the industrialized countries and our neighbouring countries, it is still there. That is why the NWC adjustments are welcomed by the workers. Sir, I am cheered to note that the Government has reviewed the salaries of senior civil servants and has promised to do the same for those in Divisions I to IV as soon as possible. I am further grateful that even the allowance for pensioners was reviewed recently. This is very much welcomed as the Government is constantly reviewing all situations to ensure that undue hardship would not befall on any of its citizens. However, I am amazed, given the efficiency of our Government machinery, why one particular area of allowances has missed the gunsight of those sharp-shooting civil servants. Maybe they do not realize that national servicemen too have to sur- vive on the basic human needs like any of us. Maybe they felt that the national servicemen must experience undue difficulty when undergoing national service. Sir, I am speaking for all those parents in Telok Blangah who have come to see me about national service allowance for their children undergoing national service. I am pleased, however, to note that these parents, as any other parents in Singapore, are no longer reluctant to send their children for national service. They have accepted this as a duty to the country. This is healthy. However, they are very concerned, especially when they have one son who could not even support himself let alone supplement the family's income on his national service allowance. These national servicemen, I understand, find great difficulty in supporting themselves in the light of prevailing conditions in Singapore with our current cost of living, especially when they are given such meagre allowances, and therefore they have to dip into the family kitty to support themselves. This situation is further aggravated because national servicemen are no longer given bus fare concessions by the Singapore Bus Service. Sir, even the Ministry of Social Affairs has been regularly reviewing the subsistence allowances for the social welfare cases. Only a few days ago, this House was informed that these subsistence allowances will be increased in line with the increase in the cost of current day living. May I, therefore, suggest that it is time the Minister of Defence reviewed the $90 per month allowance for a private soldier, which was set some 10 years ago. When the quantum of this allowance was fixed over ten years ago, there must have been certain parameters and conditions evaluated. The question is: surely these parameters and conditions must have changed because Singapore has changed tremendously in the last 10 years. Since the basis of the original calculation for the allowances has changed, I suggest that to stop inflicting undue hardship on these national servicemen and their families, the allowances should be accordingly reviewed as soon as possible.

Sir, I would like to thank the various Members for their interest in the Defence budget. A number of points have been raised and I will take them in the order they were raised. The Member for Pasir Panjang talks about esprit de corps and the importance of camaraderie in our national service. Mindef could not agree more on that particular issue. Indeed we strongly believe that esprit de corps and camaraderie represents a critical part of the strength of any army. Records have shown that an army with people who know each other well, where the individual soldiers are friends with each other, inevitably fights better than armies where people are put together fairly randomly. To this end, the SAF has adopted a basis for teamwork and for close cooperation. We practise a mono-intake system in which soldiers belonging to the same active battalion are called into the army at the same time. They train together for two years and then they go ROD together. We have, in fact, taken this one step further by grouping units on the basis of population centres so that the soldiers of the units will come from one general area, for example, Ang Mo Kio or Toa Payoh. This makes it easier for the soldiers to develop close ties with each other, with their comrades in the same platoon, who may also be neighbours in the same block or just across the street. Concerning activities at a social level, we are also actively pursuing this. At the commander's level there are many activities where the reserve formations can come together. These functions bring the officers together with the NCOs and their men into activities which could either be social or professional or both. Examples of these activities would be road shows, mass gatherings and anniversary functions. Families are often invited and they do come along to such functions. The Member for Punggol very rightly noted that there had been a decrease in the Defence expenditure as a percentage of the total budget. The figures that he has given are indeed correct. Let me give more figures to establish the trend that has been taking place. For FY 78, the figure was 18.1% of the total budget, 1979, it was 16.8%, 1980, it was 16.6%, 1981, 15.6%, and 1982, 13.7% . Indeed the Member has got his priorities right when he expressed concern that we may not be spending enough to assure the security of Singapore, particularly in these days of high inflation and fuel costs. This is particularly important to bear in mind as the sophisticated weapon systems that the Member has mentioned are generally imported from industrialized countries where the rate of Inflation is a lot higher than that in Singapore. His concern contrasts very sharply with some less-thinking people who believe that the Government should cut down its spending on defence. [Interruption] And use the money to subsidize housing, transportation, utilities and other public services. 6.00 p.m. The defence of a country is a serious matter. I can do no better than to quote Sun Tze in his opening verse in his book, The Art of War. A translation of it reads: 'The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.' Sir, this is wisdom that has withstood the test of time some 2,500 years. We ignore this ancient wisdom at our peril. Sir, because of the importance of security and defence in Singapore, I would like to elaborate further as some of the points would also impinge on matters raised by other Members. Singapore is a very small country. We can be a threat to no one. Indeed, we threaten no one. However much we may decide to spend on defence, it would be insignificant compared to the larger countries better endowed with natural resources and with much larger populations. Yet, without security and political stability, we cannot expect to survive, much less to prosper and to improve our living standards. However, it is exactly because of our very small size that we have to make strenuous efforts to build up a defence capability that is sufficient to deter potential adversaries from mauling us. In the past 16 years, our defence capability has achieved a balance. Without this capability, we would not have seen the present state of stability and security. If there had been a power vacuum immediately after the British withdrawal in 1971, there would have been no stability as it exists now. Indeed, there may not have been a Singapore at all. Our economic progress is completely dependent on political stability and security provided by defence. Without an adequate defence, all that we have built in Singapore would be worthless, for the more we have the more we invite marauders. Sir, because of our small population, we have to be capital-intensive in our defence. We cannot have, nor can we afford to have, a large standing army. So we build our defence force upon national servicemen rather than regulars. Modern hardware is sophisticated and it is also very costly both to buy as well as to service and to maintain. A careful balance has, therefore, to be struck between reducing manpower requirements and increased sophistication of hardware. Mindef will continue to maintain this balance. Sir, here I would disagree with the Member for Punggol when he said that our weapons are obsolete.

May be.

No, they are not. Sir, our weapons are becoming obsolete, naturally, with advances in science and technology. Yet we cannot keep on buying more and more of the up-to-date hardware. Where upgrading is adequate and economical, we choose upgrading. Otherwise we shall have to make very careful studies before we replace them with better hardware. Sir, I can give the House the assurance that Mindef will not permit the Defence budget to be too restrictive to permit Mindef to buy and equip the SAF properly. Mindef will most certainly make a strong case to this House to provide more for Defence should the need arise. Sir, the nub of our security is to maintain a defence capability which is credible and yet not provocative to anyone. Our defence capability must be real, not illusory. It must be a clear and viable deterrent against aggression. The Member for Kaki Bukit together with the Member for Telok Blangah brought up the question of allowance for national servicemen and indicated that it is inadequate. I would like to clarify some points in order to ensure that there is no misunderstanding as to the purpose of the allowance for national service. Two points should be noted with regard to the allowance to national servicemen. First, national service is obligatory service to the nation. It obviously involves a personal sacrifice. The allowance given to national servicemen is only intended as a contribution towards defraying some of the incidental personal expenditure. It is not to compensate for services rendered, as opposed to the salaries given to the regulars in the SAF, who have chosen to make a career in the SAF and are paid salaries competitive to those in the open market. Secondly, the allowance of $90 is paid only to recruits during the initial three-month period of basic military training. Upon completion of their basic military training, a national serviceman is entitled to various amounts of additional allowances which depend on his rank, as well as the vocation to which he is assigned. For example, a Combat Other Rank would draw up to $270. A Service Other Rank would draw up to $295. A Technical Other Rank would draw an allowance of up to $415. The allowance is obviously a function of the level of skill and the amount of effort that the national serviceman exerts himself in order to achieve promotion. Sir, I would like to mention that national servicemen who indeed face financial hardship are well considered by Mindef for financial assistance. Their applications are considered by an Advisory Board. They can be given a loan, if they are single, of up to $150 a month. If they are married, they can be given a grant of up to $150 a month. Generally, we do not see any hardship at all as a result of such loans and grants. Earlier on during Question Time, I gave some figures indicating that there were approximately 700 applicants for exemption and only a number slightly higher than 100 were cases of financial hardship. These cases were all helped one way or another. I do not think there are extreme cases of hardship where we had not been able to assist in one way or another. The Member for Kaki Bukit offered to serve in the SAF. At the moment there are no schemes in the SAF for people over 40 years coming in as a recruit to do basic military training. But I am sure he can better serve the country by talking to members of his constituency and explaining to them some of the policies of Mindef in order that we would be able to reduce to a minimum the misunderstanding surrounding the question of allowances and other matters. He also talked about possible courses to enlighten our people about events and activities in our region. This, indeed, is being carried out in order to broaden the understanding and political awareness of our national servicemen. I believe I have covered all the points raised by Members.

Sir, I found it most illogical. Simple arithmetic would show that since $90 was the sum arrived at ten years ago based on some calculation, then if we apply the same calculations today, but taking into account our inflation rate and the purchasing power of the dollar, surely the amount must be adjusted. If the other ministries have seen the plight of the pensioners and adjusted the allowances for them and also the subsistence allowance for social welfare assistance cases, I am sure the Ministry of Defence, with two Ministers, could easily see this need for adjustment. I just cannot understand it.

Sir, I believe the Member was probably not listening when I referred emphatically to the fact that the allowance of $90 is an allowance for the recruits during the period of basic military training. It is not a salary and, therefore, the question of increased compensation as a result of inflation does not enter into it. The principle is different.

Sir, the argument that I put forth is that pensions are not salaries. The subsistence allowance is an allowance. For instance, even the allowances for Members of Parliament have been increased. So, why can we not consider an increase in the allowance of $90 for the first three months?

Mr Speaker, Sir, this problem has been cropping up year in and year out. We have heard it ad nauseam for the very simple reason that there is a lack of appreciation as between employment and compensation and education and the cost of education. I would like to say that, in the case of national service, it is an extension of education. By right, therefore, if the cost of education should increase, then not only should the allowance not be increased but the parents' contribution to the national defence should increase with inflation. This is because not only is the parent getting more money but we are paying more to maintain the children in the camps since the cost of food has gone up, the cost of uniforms has gone up and the cost of equipment has gone up. I would, therefore, ask Members of this House to bear with me and with the Ministry of Defence and to remember that national service is a sacrifice that we call upon every able-bodied citizen, supported by his parents, to contribute to national defence. And, therefore, the question of increasing the allowance does not come in. As a parent who has seen two sons through national service, I would like to say that I am very happy to be able to make sure that they get the right type of training. I have been, and I will still continue, if I have got more children, to pay more to make sure that they get better training and that they do their part in the defence of this country. 6.00 p.m. Members can be sure that the allowance is not only inadequate, it will continue to be inadequate. And as spare boots and extra uniforms become more costly, some parents may have to pay more if they want to pamper their children in the same way as some 18-year old children are pampered - that they are not able to wash their uniforms in time for the next training, and therefore the parents must go round to Sungei Road to buy a few extra spare sets.

No more Sungei Road!

Maybe a replacement of Sungei Road. If anyone has got a son who is 18 years old, and I have two, he will know. In fact, he has to spend more than just $90 and he is not getting an increase.

Mr Speaker, Sir, may I just intervene? If the argument of the Minister of Defence is taken to its logical conclusion, it would mean that parents must pay the Ministry of Defence to ensure that their sons will be taken into national service. I think this really sounds a bit absurd. I wonder whether the Minister would consider paying at least a living rate, especially for somebody who has a job, who receives good pay and gets drafted into national service. He has to make a sacrifice, and I think the least that the Ministry of Defence can do is to ensure that he is paid something equitable.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I think I must clarify this confusion. I thought the $90 allowance for the first three months of national service is only for pocket money because national servicemen are provided three meals a day. Therefore, they do not need any allowance for food. I thought the $90 is only for pocket money.

Sir, I understand that the allowance is inadequate. Agreed. But why do we have to make it more and more inadequate as time goes by? Last year, I spoke in this House and asked the Minister for Communications to continue giving bus fare concession to servicemen in full uniform. It was turned down. Today with inflation and without the bus fare concession, the Minister is saying that the allowance will continue to be inadequate. What I am saying is: why do we have to make it more inadequate? That is the point. The other thing is this. The Ministry arrived at this figure 10 years ago. They must have put their calculations in the computer and came out with this figure of $90. If they can put their calculations in the computer again, I am sure the figure that comes out will be $90 plus X dollars. That is all. Can the Minister not consider that?

Mr Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the explanation given by the Minister himself regarding the allowance of $90. There is a need for parents to make sacrifices. But then, on the other hand, the Minister of State mentioned that the $90 is meant for incidental expenses. From the very beginning, why did the Ministry introduce this $90? Probably they should not have given the $90, so that the question of raising it would not arise. I agree with the Member for Telok Blangah. They must have some criteria by which they decided to pay $90 for incidental expenses. But now costs have gone up. So logically the allowance must be increased.

Sir, I am grateful to my colleagues for drawing all the logical conclusions for me. As I have said, the obligation is on the part of every able-bodied citizen to be trained to defend the country. The country is providing all the money to train him. Our rate is fixed. If there are a few cases of financial or economic difficulties, as my Minister of State has explained, there will be ways and means whereby we can assist them. To a parent who can afford it, the $90 is not very much. But to pay something more to 20,000 people is quite a considerable sum. If one looks at it that way, it can upset the amount of funds that are voted for Defence. By paying more allowance for more than 20,000 individuals each year, and since we maintain 40,000, it is quite a considerable sum. But if there are cases where there is financial need, special consideration will be given to them so that we can alleviate that need. I hope Members will be able to understand that defence is a function of what the State can afford. Coming to the Member for Chua Chu Kang, the answer is very simple. If we are able to afford it, the simple way is to have a standing army. But I can assure the House that for the type of defence that we need, we cannot afford either the manpower to be diverted to a standing army or the funds necessary to maintain the standing army. It is as simple as that. Everyone of us, as parent or as a young man, has a burden to bear in the defence of this country. Our job in the Ministry of Defence is to make sure that we have that capability at the kind of cost both actual and opportunity cost that the State can bear.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in order to help both sides in the discussion, perhaps the Minister can tell this House how many times would a soldier be expected to return home during the three months of in-camp training? Then we will get some idea of the bus fares and other incidentals that might be incurred.

Sir, in the initial period, we do not allow the soldier to go home for the first month. After the first month, he is allowed to go home once a week. In this case, the $90 is more than adequate for bus fares. But the parents protested - they have not seen their children for so long and they do not know what has happened to their children. So the period of one month was reduced to two weeks and, I think, there is now a move to reduce it to one week. Many parents, in fact, would prefer their children to go home every day. And they are meeting the problem by giving them more bus fares.

Sir, many Members have raised the question of hardship cases. I think I ought to disabuse this red herring. There are no hardship cases which Mindef has not assisted.

Sir, I am sorry I cannot accept this argument. If the Minister will just bear with me, I recall this data on standard of living indicators. It shows that our per capita GNP has gone up - doubled. Everything has gone up. Why can they not put the data into the original calculations and come out with a new figure? If the Ministry could give $90 previously with bus fare concessions, why can they not recalculate or recompute it again? I see no reason why they cannot do that. Can the Minister please review this matter? Because if he says that it costs money, then why do we have to increase the allowances for the social welfare cases? That costs money too. Why do we have to increase the allowances for the pensioners? That costs money too. But I thought we had a balanced budget for many years that I can think of, and we are proud to have a balanced budget. Our revenue is always more than our recurrent expenditure. Surely, paying an extra sum of money for 20,000 people per month will not make Singapore go broke.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Member for Telok Blangah is really chasing the tail of an argument, and we come back to exactly the same position if we were to pay $100, $110 and so on. Sir, I think the whole question of obligation and personal sacrifice to the nation has not been noted by Members in their argument for increased allowance for national servicemen. This is a national service army where young men at the age of 18 are called upon to serve the nation without exception, without a choice. Sir, their parents are enjoying the fruits of the security provided by young men of 18 years who have served their two or 2 1/2 years in days past. These parents know full well that without our national service army, they would not be enjoying the good jobs and the security that they sometimes take for granted.

I am grateful, Sir, for the assurance given by the Minister of State of Defence and strongly supported by the Minister himself. I am quite confident of the capabilities of our Armed Forces. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head K be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead KB-02 Object Group 3110 of the Main Estimates. In fact, there is no provision at all for this Subhead Group and I was tempted to ask of the Minister of Defence this question. On 20th March last year in this House, during the deliberations on the provisions of the Ministry of Defence, I asked the Hon. Minister why the grant of $37,740 was reduced to $11,000. And this is contained in Hansard of 20th March, 1981, Vol, 40, No. 11, col. 975. This year the amount of $11,000 has disappeared. This is the case, Sir, and I am just wondering whether the Singapore Armed Forces Reservists' Association (SAFRA) would be able to continue to enjoy some form of grants. I notice that the Hon. Minister is shaking his head. The question is that SAFRA club-houses have been built in some constituencies with large concentrations of national servicemen reservists in areas like Toa Payoh, Bukit Merah -

Brickworks.

Yes, Brickworks, Ang Mo Kio. My question is really this. Is it because last year I raised the question as to why it was reduced that the result this year is the total removal of the amount of $11,000? 6.30 p.m.

Sir, let me assure the Member for Punggol that there will not be any curtailment of activities and facilities for SAFRA Clubhouses and other facilities, notwithstanding the reduction of grant from $11,000 to zero. In the financial year 1980-81, SAFRA through a series of fund-raising projects have been able to achieve a position of self-financing. Indeed they have a surplus of approximately $900,000. We would like to encourage SAFRA with many of these fund-raising projects. We also provide facilities which are also revenue-generating and we believe that the same healthy financial position will continue into the 1982-83 financial year. Let me quickly assure the Member for Punggol that should there be a need for a grant to be made to SAFRA, Mindef will ensure that the grant is made. This is because we put heavy emphasis on the activities of SAFRA. We talked earlier, Sir, of the importance of encouraging camaraderie, esprit de corps, cohesion of units and all the other intangible aspects of a good army. We would leave no stone unturned in ensuring that such is achieved. Mindef is in the process of building its second clubhouse in Brickworks. This should be ready, and hopefully, it will be open in April 1982. We are also enhancing facilities available currently at Toa Payoh Clubhouse to make it more attractive for our reservists. Plans are also in hand to have a third SAFRA clubhouse at Bedok. Capital expenditure of all these is being borne by Mindef. The financial investment required to undertake such projects would be beyond the means of SAFRA itself, although it is currently able to self-finance its daily expenses. Sir, let me emphasize yet again that the reservists are important elements of our national service and our national defence. SAFRA through its facilities and activities can play, and indeed has played, a significant role in this.

Sir, I am grateful to the Minister of State of Defence for his reply, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head K be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead KB-03 of the Main Estimates. Sir, the Outward Bound School run by the Ministry of Defence is unique in that it is the only institution in the Republic that provides opportunities for a combination of adventure and leadership training. It is laudable that Mindef is also providing this rare service to the Ministry of Education and civic organizations, for I believe that the school is a good place for character building for our youths. All these, of course, entail manpower - skilled and experienced. My concern is about such trained personnel in the School. Do we have sufficient trained instructors in the School and, if so, what are the opportunities available for these instructors, who conduct courses throughout the year, not only to upgrade their skills but also to introduce new activities? Are there any plans to improve the existing facilities and to expand the school?

Sir, I thank the Member for Pasir Panjang for his concern. Let me assure him that there are indeed enough instructors for all the activities at the Outward Bound School. Sir, out of the 16 instructors currently present in the Outward Bound School, nine of them are SAF personnel. But that is not all. During the peak periods when courses are being conducted, the SAF provides as many as up to 18 Physical Training (PT) instructors who have undergone standard courses and are therefore able to assist the Outward Bound School instructors themselves. Over and above the provision of PT instructors and other instructors, SAF also provides 55 out of the 62 administrators and logistics staff for the day-to-day administration. Concerning the point as to whether there are new courses being conducted, the answer to that is yes. Courses are constantly being reviewed by the Management Committee which has representatives from the Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Education and the Ministry of the Environment, However, because of limitation of land on Pulau Ubin itself, the school has now developed more activities that concern the sea, such as canoeing and cutter expeditions. The School also conducts regularly a five-day adventure training course. This was introduced in 1979 to provide exposure to outdoor life for our young pre-national service enlistees. Instructors are always encouraged to upgrade their skills and ability. Regarding increase in the number of courses, the Member for Pasir Panjang may like to note the following figures. In 1979 there was a total of four courses for the adventure training course for adventure training. This took in approximately 1,120 students. In 1980 the number of courses was increased to 12 with approximately 2,700 students participating. Last year we had 25 courses, with approximately 4,600 students participating. We expect in the year 1982 to have approximately 28 adventure courses with 6,000 students participating. So if we take into account the physical fitness of national servicemen, the physical fitness of reservists and also the fitness of our young school children, we cannot but come to the conclusion that we have a healthy and physically fit male population. I am sure some of the habits of physical fitness must have rubbed on to the female population in Singapore also, judging from the many who jog and play games regularly. It has been said that there are none so blind as those that will not see. With respect to the rugged society in Singapore, I think it is most apt.

Sir, I would like to get clarification again on the opportunities available for the instructors to upgrade their performance and the possibility of introducing new activities.

Sir, I have replied to those two points. The instructors are encouraged to participate in new upgraded courses as long as and whenever the courses are available and relevant to the needs of the Outward Bound School. As for the number of new courses introduced, I have indicated the adventure training courses as well as the canoeing and cutter expeditions.

Sir, a further clarification. Am I to understand that the courses for the instructors are available locally or overseas?

Sir, Mindef has a variety of courses for different types of activities for the Physical Training instructors. These, I believe, could be made available if there are instructors indicating an interest. Obviously if the need arises and there are appropriate overseas courses, Mindef will only be too happy to send some of the keen instructors who will be able to benefit from such courses overseas.

I am grateful to the Minister of State of Defence for the answers given, and I would like to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $1,549,970,000 for Head K ordered to stand part of the main Estimates. The sum of $150,000,000 for Head K ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

6.43 p.m. Head Q -

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead QA-01 Object Group 1100 of the Main Estimates, Sir, the purpose of moving this amendment is to ask the Minister what is the policy on the issue of a licence for firearms. Quite a few cases of firearms licences have been withdrawn since last year, and the revocation of these licences was not due to any infringements of the rules or regulations. The licensees were simply asked to surrender their firearms without reason. I would be most grateful if the Minister could enlighten this House the reason for withdrawing their firearms licences.

Sir, the issue of licences to possess firearms is under strict control. This is to prevent the proliferation of guns which may be used for criminal purposes. The Member for Khe Bong has asked what is the policy behind the issue of licences. Licences to possess firearms are issued by the Police for three categories of uses: (1) for sports, i.e. target practice at authorized ranges; (2) self-protection of applicant and of immediate members of the family; (3) protection of life and property by Government departments and statutory boards and banks. 6.45 p.m. The policy on the issue of firearms licences for self-protection, Sir, is that the applicant's life or the lives of the immediate family must be in imminent danger. The criteria for use of licences for sporting purposes are as follows: (a) The applicant must be a member of the Singapore Rifle Association or the Singapore Gun Club. (b) The firearms must be used only at the authorized ranges and it must be stored at the armoury at the ranges, and the applicant must maintain a keen interest in the sport and practice regularly. The licence to possess a firearm is valid for one year. Whether the licence is renewed will depend on whether the circumstances justify the licensee's possession of the firearms. Under the Arms and Explosives Act, the Police need not give reasons for cancelling licences. Normally licences are not renewed for the following reasons: (i) The lives of the licensee or his immediate family are no longer in imminent danger; (ii) He has reached 60 years of age; (iii) He has breached conditions of his licence; (iv) He has shown a decline in interest in shooting as a sport by failing to maintain a good attendance record at the ranges. In the last two years there were four cases of cancellation. Three of the cases were because the licensee had reached 60 years of age. The fourth case was because there was no longer an imminent danger to the licensee's life. There are no cases of a licence being revoked before its expiry date. I hope my explanation of the policy is clear.

Sir, in view of the Minister's very satisfactory reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead QA-01 Object Group 2610 of the Main Estimates. Sir, in moving this amendment, I merely have a small question to ask the Minister for Home Affairs. It concerns items (2) and (3) of the Object Group, i.e. Conferences and Expenses in connection with visits of advisers, experts, consultants, etc. Could the Minister elaborate on these two items of expenditure?

Sir, this item is a provision for advisers, experts and consultants. In October 1981, I led a delegation comprising senior officials from the Ministry and the Police Force to visit Japan to study: (1) The system of reacting to natural and civil disasters in connection with the post-formulation of our Civil Defence lan-

Sir, I thank the Minister for his kind reply. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead QB-02 of the Development Estimates. Sir, may I seek your indulgence to range my remarks concerning police stations because the provision for the building of police stations is not provided elsewhere in the Development Estimates. Last year, this House debated at great length on the need to build police divisional headquarters. Just now, in answer to my question, the Hon. Minister disclosed that he himself has led a study team to Japan to see how the Japanese police system is organized. We also know that Singapore has also sent officials to America to study the American system, that is, the Federal Bureau of Investigation. My question is: Why is there no provision for police divisional headquarters? As the population shifts, due to the building of satellite towns like Ang Mo Kio, Toa Payoh, Hougang, Yishun, etc., there must be this need and, I recall, Sir, that in his reply last year the Minister mentioned that there were two schools of thought on this question of policing. I am more concerned with the ground level which involves the common people, the constituents, or anybody who has to lodge a complaint or who has to seek police help could go to the police station. Sir, we all know that the Paya Lebar Police Station, which comes under the 'F' Division, has been in existence for a long time. As I just mentioned earlier on, the shift of population to these large satellite towns that the HDB has built is surely a pressing problem which must occupy part of the attention of the Minister for Home Affairs. There must be people who would want to go to the police station for one reason or another. Therefore, may I ask whether his idea of having more police stations in these satellite towns has been dropped. And if the idea has been dropped, may the House be informed why?

Sir, it is true that last year in this House there was considerable interest shown on the question of police work and police headquarters stations. I am very grateful to the Member for Punggol to have brought this matter up again to enable me to give -

To refresh your memory.

Not just to refresh my memory but to give a report of the progress we have made since then. I am glad to say that much progress has been made since then. The Singapore Police Force is being modernized and revamped to gear itself for the challenges of not only today but of the 1980s and beyond. New strategies are being conceived and the emphasis is on community relations in policing work. This point was brought up by the Member for Punggol. We also emphasize that point. Cooperation between the police and the public is crucial towards fulfilling the role of the police as guardians of law and order and the protection of lives and property. Our society has rapidly become highly urbanized. As you know, 70% of our population live in highrise flats. In the past, people live in the same kampung or in our Chinatown district. They knew one another and were able to assist one another for mutual protection against intruders and criminals. I think you still see some of these in Punggol.

Yes. 7.00 p.m.

They had a sense of solidarity and provided assistance to one another when required. This camaraderie provided protection against crime. This is lost when people, as a result of living in highrise flats, become impersonalized. Through the RCs and Neighbourhood Watch groups, we are now trying to recreate a sense of community in these housing estates. In this new social environment we have to fundamentally reorientate our policing system and strategy so as to achieve police and public cooperation in every neighbourhood. This has to be settled first before we come to consider how many headquarters stations, substations or police posts we need to build and what manpower we require. Police stations are just infrastructure facilities. They are the necessary support of the policing function. It is, therefore, necessary to have, first, teams of experts to study our situation and advise us as to what the new policing system and strategy should be. For this, we have appointed two teams of experts, a Japanese police team and a British police team. We have appointed the Japanese team because, as I have said, the Japanese policing system has managed to keep their crime rate down whilst in other industrialized countries, including the United States, the crime rate has been going up. This has been largely due to their excellent community relations through their koban system or the system of police posts. The road accident rates of the Japanese was half in the ten years between 1970 and 1980 despite a 22 '-times increase in the number of vehicles on the roads. The Japanese police officer is generally held in high esteem by the public and has a high social status. Thus, the Japanese team has been asked to study and recommend to us how the Japanese koban system could be implemented in Singapore so as to achieve, first, closer contact between the police and the public; secondly, better rapport with the community through grassroots organizations, such as the RCs, CCCs, etc. and thirdly, greater confidence in the Police Force amongst the public. I am glad to say that we have just received the report. In summary, they recommended a new policing system based on the koban system of police force but adapted to the Singapore situation. They have recommended the establishment of 91 police posts with at least one police post in every constituency. The bigger constituencies will have more than one police post. For the proper supervision of these posts, they have recommended an immediate increase from eight to 10 headquarters stations. I hope that will gladden the hearts of Members. However, for the effective supervision of these posts there should be 15 headquarters stations. They have also made recommendations on manpower establishment and training programme that emphasizes interaction with members of the public. We are now studying the report. As for the British team, we have asked them to study other professional aspects of police work. We have turned to them for assistance because they have a criminal justice system similar to our own, and there are certain other aspects of police work which we can learn from them, such as communications network, modernization of present radio network and other mechanical devices, including modern investigative techniques, particularly in highly specialized areas such as computer crime and so on. They will complete their studies and submit their report in April. If we accept the recommendations of the Japanese study team, it would mean that not only will many of our satellite towns have police posts, but some of the bigger ones will have a police headquarters station.

Sir, I am grateful to the Hon. Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Mr J.B. Jeyaretnam (Anson) rose -

Do you want to disclose any pecuniary interest?

Sorry, Sir?

Do you want to make any disclosure of your interest beforehand?

No. I do not know what the purport of your question is.

I am entitled to say what I think is correct.

May I know what is the purport?

I do not have to explain to you.

Am I not allowed to speak here?

Yes, I am giving you a chance to speak.

Sir, we have heard from the Minister that we are now swinging over to the Japanese method in policing our country. We have heard a lot about importing Japanese labour relations. Now it would appear that we are going to import the Japanese methods of policing into our police system. I see that the sum total of the Japanese recommendations would appear to be the establishment of outposts in different parts of the island. I remember that there was a time when we had a lot of outposts in various parts of Singapore. There were small police outposts for the people living in a particular area to report any offence or take their grievances and see the local policemen, as it were. We scrapped all that. Now the Japanese have recommended it and it would appear that we are going back to it. I would like to know how much has been spent on getting this advice from Japan. Secondly, the Minister spoke about community relations. Of course, one of the essential things for the proper policing of any country is that there should be good community relations between the police and the public. May I know from the Minister what plans the Ministry has to foster this community spirit between the police and public? Finally, again community relations must depend upon morale in the Singapore Police Force, not only morale of the officers in the top ranks but largely morale in the ordinary policeman who patrols our streets and who goes out on duties in his motor-car or otherwise. What plans has the Ministry got about continuing dia- logues with the men and women down below in the hierarchy of the Police Force to monitor their grievances and to see what improvement can be made in respect of their complaints?

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, before the Hon. Minister gives his reply, I do recall the abolition of the police posts. I stand to be corrected. But I do not think I am far wrong. Yes, there were police posts, but they were during the colonial days and when we, the PAP, came to power, the entire police structure was revamped and reorganized. With the increasing facilities and easier communication through the telephone and radio patrol cars, there was no need for police posts to be sited in various parts of Singapore, so that the manpower could be better deployed on the beat, in the patrol cars and at the police stations to serve the community better. I know it as a fact for I have been in this House since 1963. I am glad that Paya Lebar Police Station, which serves about 13 constituencies, in 'F' Division, is doing a good job. For the record, that is why even the police post in Jalan Kayu was taken away for that matter, and sited in Toa Payoh. I think that, in part, answers the question of the Member for Anson.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I answer the Member for Anson? The Member for Anson wants to know why we have asked the Japanese team to come and give us expert advice on the koban system. I have already stated quite categorically that the reason why we have asked for their advice is that in all industrialized countries in the world, there was a rising crime rate, but Japan is the only country or one of the few countries that has a falling crime rate. Do we want a rising crime rate, or do we want a failing crime rate? If we have a rising crime rate, then the majority of people will be insecure. There will be more criminals. It is not good for business or for the majority of the people, except lawyers. The other point I want to make is that he appears to be very suspicious and he seems not to agree that we should have more police posts throughout the island of Singapore. At the same time, he has asked how do we propose to foster policecommunity relationship.

I was not suspicious. I said we were reverting back.

I am not interested in reverting back. We are not reverting back. This is a new situation. The Member for Anson may have misunderstood the whole thing. But I am glad when he says he is not suspicious. 7.15 p.m. Let us get this straight. The point is this. There is a contradiction here. If we do not have more police posts, then we have less presence of the police in all the neighbourhoods of the housing estates. If we do not have the presence of the police in all the housing estates which the people welcome, then how can we have a close relationship between the police and the residents of housing estates? The Member for Anson may not want the police to be around in the housing estates but I believe the majority of MPs - Some hon. Members: All!

- representing housing estates, including myself, want the presence of the police because they are the guardians of our human rights, the right of the citizen to be free and not to be abused by criminals. And if the criminals get into trouble, they get lawyers to defend them. The Member asked another question. How much have we paid to the Japanese experts to come here? Maybe he has some suspicion that we have squandered public funds. May I tell him that we have not paid a cent. An hon. Member: Goodwill!

It is goodwill. They sent the study team and it was financed by the Japanese Government, which we are thankful for. The Member asked about the morale of the police officers. He appears to be championing the low-ranking police officers. I think their morale is quite high. [Interruption.] Is the Member saying that I should take a census? I do meet them, but I do not meet them as some lawyers do when they have got into trouble. Of course, when they have got into trouble and see their lawyers, then they give a different picture of the morale of the police force. But I do meet the vast majority of them. Their morale is high. If the Member for Anson says otherwise, then let him take a census as he is so fond of suggesting it. As regards the report, once we have considered it and it is released, I think it will raise their morale even higher because, as I have said, in Japan the police officer, even the ordinary constable, is highly respected. They are given a high social status. Does the Member disagree with my adopting that system and giving them respect? Does he agree with the suggestion that we give them higher social status? Mr Jeyaretnam rose -

For the record, you have not given notice of amendment.

I have not.

Nevertheless, I am giving you the opportunity to speak.

Thank you very much. I am indebted to you. I am afraid there has been a misunderstanding. Perhaps it was deliberate by the Minister -

Sir, on a point of order, The Member has made a serious imputation and if he knows the Standing Orders, he should not impute or make such imputations. Will he withdraw that?

I am saying that there has been a complete misunderstanding of the points that I have made. It is not that I am against police posts. All I am saying is that we had this once before and now, as I understand it, the sum total of all this advice we have received is that we must go back to our police posts. Please, let us not have complete misunderstanding of everything I say in this House.

Sir, now it is a debate on who has misunderstood whom. We can carry on with it till the cows come home. May I say that we are not going back to the old police posts. An hon. Member: Modern police posts!

These are modern police posts. As I have said, we cannot go back to the past. We now have a different social and economic situation. We have high-rise buildings. 70% of the population live in high-rise buildings. So we cannot go back even if we want to because the old kampongs and old Chinatown district have disappeared. Is that not a simple thing to understand?

Sir, can I just ask a question, if you will permit me?

Yes.

Sir, can I ask the Member for Anson to describe to the House his concept of the police post that he knew of before, including the policemen?

Does the hon. Member for Anson wish to reply?

I do not understand the question.

Sir, I am speaking plain simple English. If the Member is confused, I will repeat my question. Can I ask the Member for Anson to describe or to give us his concept of what the police post was like before and also to describe the policeman he saw before, the uniform, the beret and so on?

I am asked to describe the concept of the police force I saw before. Before when? The concept of the police force that one saw years ago? The concept of the police force that one would desire for one's country - and the concept of the police force that I would desire for this country - is a police force that has the respect of its citizens, the trust of its citizens; where there is mutual understanding and rapport between the police and the public. And if we can build that, then we have got a wonderful police force. For that, we have got to do a number of things. First of all, we have got to raise the morale of the police force as well.

Mr Deputy, Sir, if I heard my colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Labour, correctly, he wanted the Member for Anson to describe the police post he saw at that time, not the police force.

Sir, I am not at all confused. I know what I am talking. In any case, I think the hon. Member for Anson has finished and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead 0D-01 of the Main Estimates.* The Home Affairs Ministry is to be congratulated for its innovative efforts in crime prevention. Recently, we read in the newspapers that the Ministry has introduced a pilot scheme to get the police to go on bicycle patrols around private housing estates. This scheme appears to be attractive since it allows for greater police visibility in housing estates. This police visibility is of great importance in most housing estates as this will definitely prevent many crimes being committed, especially now that we have withdrawn the Vigilante Corps from police patrols. Sir, I would like the Minister to give this House a progress report on this scheme. If the findings of this scheme are positive, would the Minister consider extending this scheme to other housing estates like Chong Boon?

Sir, I share the concern of the Member for Chong Boon with regard to crime prevention. On the basis of the answer to my question at last year's Budget debate on the Ministry of Home Affairs, I understand that the policing and patrolling policy of the police force is being reviewed daily or even weekly by the 0C Division and 0C Crime in response to the rising or lowering of crime rates. If the crime rate is going up in one area, then patrols from other areas where the crime rate has gone down will be diverted to that area. I also understand that the team policing strategy is mobile enough for police cars to be diverted to one area if the need arises because they are in constant communication or contact through the walkie-talkie with the police divisional headquarters. I am doubtful if this strategy of patrolling and policing is sufficient to meet the problems of crime in Housing and Development Board estates. It appears to me that the police attention is mainly to deal with crimes after they have been committed. Is it not the role of the police to prevent crime? At every monthly meeting of my constituency's Citizens' Consultative Committee, I always receive reports of crime such as theft of motor vehicles, theft of bicycles, snatch thefts, housebreaking, etc. which usually happen in the early hours of the morning when people are still asleep and in the afternoons when most residents are away at work. I agree with the Member for Chong Boon that there is a need in every housing estate to make the people feel that there is always a police presence even though no crimes are committed. I met many residents who always mention that the police are there only when crimes have been committed. May I ask the Minister whether there are measures being considered on how to promote an environment in an HDB estate where people feel secure that the police are always present and therefore this will be a deterrent measure preventing people from committing crimes.

Sir, I support the views of the Member for Chong Boon. Apart from helping our police to improve their physical fitness, this visible presence of the police on bicycles will be most welcome by residents of my constituency, particularly now that we have more than our fair share of serious armed robberies.

Sir, I cannot agree more with the three Members on what they have stated about wanting the presence of the police. I think I have answered part of the question in the debate on the Subhead moved by the Member for Punggol. The solution which we are considering at the moment is to have more police posts along the lines of the koban system. If we implement that system, then all the neighbourhoods will not only see the police presence but also be more secure, no matter what the Member for Anson says. 7.30 p.m. Now when we have police posts, as is now being proposed, the police officers that would be deployed to the post would be deployed on foot. Being deployed on foot, they will have closer contact with the residents. At the moment as they are deployed in team policing cars, there is less opportunity for such contact. They will also visit households regularly within the area of the police post, to strike up friendship and cooperation between the residents and the police officers who are operating the police post. With regard to the bicycle patrols of which the Member for Chong Boon is enamoured and also by the Member for Thomson from a medical point of view, the idea is that they will be fit and, of course, when you are fit it will contribute to higher morale. In October 1981, the Police introduced bicycle patrols as a pilot project in five private housing estates. The estates were Golden Hill, Seletar Hills, Sembawang Hills, Sennett Estate, Kamuning Estate. The objectives of the bicycle patrols were: (1) to show a visible police presence and foster better rapport with residents; (2) to provide simple advice on crime prevention to the residents in these estates. On an average day, 18 men are deployed on bicycle patrols in three shifts, with three 2-man teams per shift. Officers on bicycle patrols are hand-picked for their initiative and ability to relate to the community. Each selected officer is kept on bicycle patrol for at least six months for him to get to know the residents and be known to them. It is too early for me to draw firm conclusions about the scheme's impact on preventable crimes. However, the preliminary indications are that the crime rates have gone down in the five housing estates since the introduction of bicycle patrols. I am sure there are less bicycle thieves around! [Laughter] Most significant is the indication from residents of their satisfaction with the scheme. They have expressed the view that bicycle patrols encourage personal contact between residents and policemen. Many residents have taken the initiative to talk to the policemen on bicycle patrols. Some have also asked for crime prevention advice and literature which are provided with minimum delay. Whether the scheme can be extended to other estates depends on the physical construction of the estate. As I said, they were started on five private housing estates with bungalow or semi-detached houses. In most HDB high rise estates, foot patrols may be more useful than bicycle patrols, as it may be troublesome for the policemen to park their bicycles every time they visit an upper floor flat. An hon. Member: More bicycle thieves!

I do not have to mention bicycle thieves again! [Laughter].

Sir, I am fully in support of the objectives of the bicycle patrols, but I am just wondering whether instead of bicycles the Ministry of Home Affairs will consider scooters. This is because I feel that the bicycle is incongruous with our modern city which we are trying to create. An hon. Member: Save energy!

Save energy, but it may be at the expense of efficiency because in this particular instance, can you imagine a policeman on a bicycle and one mile away somebody is shouting "Help! Help!". How long does it take him to go there? With a scooter, it is faster and more efficient. Besides, if we want to boost the policeman's morale, I think we should not make him cycle too much. I disagree with the Member for Thomson that it is good for morale. It is good for physical fitness but not necessarily good for morale. There are other means and other times to keep fit. I am thinking purely of greater efficiency.

Sir, bicycle patrols is only one category of patrols. We also have patrols on scooters, patrols on cars and patrols on foot. So each category of patrols has a certain specific job to do. We do not go from one extreme to another. If we go from one extreme to another, then we will not be doing justice to the situation as it offers itself. For a fast response to a distress call, then we have cars. Even scooters may be too late. So we have, as I said, various categories of patrols. Why do I say that we must not just look at one aspect of the types of patrols? Because if the policeman moves too fast, he cannot meet people. So the bicycle sometimes is an in-between. It enables him to travel some distance and at the same time meet people. The main objective of foot patrols and bicycle patrols is not to respond to emergency calls but to cultivate close community-police relationship, whereas the scooters and the cars are for the purpose of a quick response to any emergency calls.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am grateful to the Minister for such a detailed explanation, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead QE-01 Object Group 1210 of the Main Estimates*. Sir, first of all, I would like to say that I am appreciative of the good work done by the Traffic Police in enforcing road safety and many educational programmes carried out by them. However, many of us are also aware that a good number of Traffic Police are stretching the authority vested on them. It is a known fact that the Traffic Police can park their vehicles anywhere on the road. They have been seen weaving, speeding or else hiding behind bushes to pounce on the unsuspecting motorist. Sir, I am not questioning the authority of the Traffic Police. I know that enforcement must be done so that our roads can be safe, because there are motorists who hope to get away with violation of the traffic rules. But I feel that the Traffic Police, being the law enforcement officers, should take the lead in educating other road users by their good example of road safety. If our Traffic Police were to break traffic rules and regulations in the course of their duty, then who are we to blame if the motorists take upon themselves to do likewise? Sir, another point I would like to bring up is the high-powered cylinder capacity motor-cycles that are presently being used by many traffic policemen. We have for the past few years organized campaigns to save energy and the various Government departments have been trying their best to reduce costs by less consumption of energy. I wonder if the Minister can enlighten the House on the cylinder capacity of these motor-cycles and the reason for their continued use. Surely the policewomen who are using the lower cylinder capacity scooters are performing just as efficiently as those on high-powered motor-cycles. Does the Minister have any plans to change these high-powered motor-cycles to lower cylinder capacity scooters or motor-cycles in order to save costs and energy?

Sir, whenever I am outside Singapore, very often I hear complimentary remarks about our traffic system. They praise our traffic planners for their foresight and the Traffic Police for their efficiency and sometimes for their politeness. But the reverse often confronts me at my Meet-the People sessions. Very often those constituents who were booked by the Traffic Police would complain of bad traffic arrangement or sometimes even unfair treatment. I think this is due to difference in expectation. Our Government has done a lot to improve our traffic system. It is one of the best in this part of the world but there is still room for improvement. For example, our traffic lanes are not sufficiently regulated. Bukit Timah Road is a three-lane wide road with a speed limit of 70 kilometres per hour. Very often a motorist is forced to travel at not more than 50 kph because the left lane is occupied by an SBS bus, the centre lane by a law-abiding light truck but the right lane is occupied by a slow-moving vehicle preparing to make a U-turn into Dunearn Road. It is not very clear which of the three lanes is meant for fast vehicles travelling at maximum permitted speed - the centre or the right lane. I suggest that the Traffic Department designates different lanes for different maximum and minimum speeds except for overtaking. Goods vehicles irrespective of their size or tonnage are registered with a maximum speed of 50 kph. This means that they are not allowed to exceed this speed at all times. Very often we see unladen light goods vehicles blocking a few cars in the centre lane of the road. May I suggest that unladen light goods vehicles be allowed to move at maximum road speed instead of vehicle speed. This will improve considerably the flow of traffic on our roads where the maximum speed exceeds 50 kph. 7.45 p.m.

Sir, in answer to the Member for Ang Mo Kio, may I say that the Mobile Squad comprises a total of 187 officers out of a Police Force strength of 6,318. Since 1st January, 1980, there have been only five complaints against six officers for errant driving. Out of this, no fault was disclosed in two cases. A warning was issued in one case and investigations are still in progress in the remaining three cases. The alleged misdeeds involved speeding, indiscriminate parking and technical violations. For the same period, traffic violation reports were made against only three Mobile Squad officers and all were given offers of composition. In other words, there is no preferential treatment as far as bookings are concerned between Mobile Squad Traffic Police officers and ordinary members of the public. The Mobile Squad of the Traffic Police is a specialist unit. It emphasizes professionalism. High standards are set and expected. Only regular officers having a minimum of two years' experience are recruited into the squad. Officers who are selected for the Mobile Squad must undergo a course at the Police Driving School. Those who are not in possession of Class 2 licences attend a course for two months' duration where defensive driving techniques are emphasized. This is a full-time course and participants attend lessons for 7 1/2 hours each day. The course is centred around practical riding skills. Officers who already possess Class 2 licences undergo a conversion course of up to six weeks' duration. Having completed the course at the Police Driving School, the officers then undergo a one-week induction course at the Traffic Police. This comprises lectures on traffic enforcement patrols and patrol as well as practical skills, talks and film shows on safe driving are featured. Only after this induction course the new officers are assigned to more seasoned officers for a period of on-the-job training. Only after this exhaustive process are officers actually deployed on the road for normal duties. The officers are always reminded that, as guardians of the law, it is their paramount responsibility to set a good example for other drivers. We have taken great care to train and instil in them road courtesy. With regard to the cylinder capacity of motor-cycles used by the Traffic Police or policewomen, the Mobile Squad has a total of 174 motor-cycles and 27 scooters. The breakdown of motor-cycles is as follows: Engine Capacity Number 80 cc 2 450 cc 11 500 cc 79 550 cc 67 650 cc 11 750 cc 1 1,000 cc 1 1,100 cc 2 We have only four high-powered ones. But we must have them because we have hell drivers. We must save them from hell. Different situations require different enforcement strategies. The duties of Mobile Squad officers are somewhat diversified. The four high-powered motorcycles of 750 cc and above are used, as I said, to catch hell drivers and to track down speedsters. You cannot use a smaller machine to catch a speedster. The larger machines are more stable on the road and capable of higher speeds. Effective law enforcement demands that the resources of the law are at least as sophisticated as those of the law-breakers. The medium-powered motor-cycles are ideal for normal patrol duties. Similar machines are used by the Traffic Enforcement Unit of the Japanese National Police Agency. The women police officers use scooters because patrols are confined to CBD where the return of offences committed does not require the police to engage in speedy pursuits because in the CBD you cannot go very fast. In line with the national energy conservation campaign, the fuel consumption of all machines is closely monitored, and whenever it is found unsatisfactory the machine is immediately sent for inspection at the Force Transport Branch. May I answer the Member for Bukit Batok. It is the general rule that the right-hand lane is for faster-moving traffic. However - this is important - roads in built-up areas where there are many intersections, traffic moving on those roads is usually slow-moving. Therefore, the problem of which is the fast lane should not arise. The right-hand lane in many intersections is usually for traffic intending to make a right turn. At every road junction there are arrows painted on the road to guide motorists on which lane to use. There are usually three sets of arrows at 30-metre intervals, with the first set at 100 metres from the junction. Motorists should use the lane with arrows pointing to the direction in which they wish to travel and avoid using the wrong lane. That is the most important: not to use the wrong lane. On fast major roads and expressways, the right-most lane should be used only when overtaking. As far as possible, motorists should keep to the left. The Traffic Police has laid down the guidelines for traffic turning right on such roads. Directional signboards are erected 30 metres from road junctions. Motorists should move carefully to the right lane i they wish to turn right at the junction. They should then filter into the turning lane and slow down within this lane which is about 100 metres long. As the turning lane is separate from the main road, vehicles slowing down in this lane would not obstruct fast moving traffic. Nevertheless, Traffic Police officers often give the benefit of the doubt to the motorist who slows down on the right-hand lane near a junction. However, if he persists on driving in the overtaking lane for long distances, he will be booked. With regard to goods vehicles, laden and unladen, they have to have a speed limit of 40 kph. It is a popular misconception that it is dangerous for goods vehicles to speed only if they are loaded. Loaded vehicles have greater momentum and take longer to come to a complete halt. There is also the danger of the load becoming unbalanced or falling off. However, there are also dangers associated with fast-moving goods vehicles which are not loaded. Because they are lighter than their intended operational weight, their road-holding is reduced, making them more difficult to control. Indeed unladen goods vehicles may be more dangerous than securely-loaded goods vehicles at high speeds. The problem of obstruction would not arise if slow-moving vehicles keep to the left instead of hogging the road. Mr Tan Soo Khoon rose -

We have only five minutes to the moment of interruption. Please be brief.

Sir, permit me to make a little comment. I was rather intrigued by the discussion earlier on regarding Traffic policemen and road courtesy on the part of the Traffic policemen themselves. I would like to relate what I saw the other day while I was driving along the Pan-Island Expressway. I noticed a Traffic policeman making a U-turn on the PanIsland Expressway by going over the road-divider that divides the PIE. Obviously he was trying to catch hold of somebody speeding on a vehicle coming along the opposite direction and, in his zeal and enthusiasm to catch the offender, he himself committed an offence too. In so doing, he posed a hazard not only to himself but to other road users. I think the Minister should take note of this. It is very serious, and the message should be got through to Traffic policemen that they too should abide by the law and the rules governing road safety.

Sir, I have already stated that they must not violate the rules which they are to enforce, otherwise they would be showing a bad example.

Sir, we can see that the majority of motor-cycles on the roads are less than 250 cc. If the Minister thinks that the Traffic Police who are using motor-cycles of more than 500 cc which consume more oil and energy could be classified as medium-sized motor-cycles, then I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

There is only one minute to go before the moment of interruption. Do I have the agreement of Members that we resume tomorrow? Hon. Members: Yes. Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1982 to 31st March, 1983, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

So be it.

Resolved, "That Parliament do now adjourn." - [Mr Chua Sian Chin]. Adjourned accordingly at Eight o'clock p.m. Tables - INFORMATION ON CHIT FUND COMPANIES WHICH HAD PAID OUT 100% DIVIDEND (Cols. 1223 - 1224) Annex - PROGRESS OF CLEANING UP PROGRAMME (Cols. 1225 - 1228)