Hansard, 1998-03-18

asked the Minister for Home Affairs what attempts were made to find out how the late Minister for National Development Teh Cheang Wan obtained his supply of the drug with which he took his own life.

Sir, the late Mr Teh Cheang Wan died of an overdose of Amytal, a barbiturate. The Police, in the course of their investigations, interviewed the doctors who had attended to the deceased's health problems, and the pharmacist who had dispensed drugs to him previously. None of them said that they had prescribed or sold Amytal to him. Checks with the Ministry of Health revealed that it had stopped using the drug Amytal about a year before Mr Teh Cheang Wan's death. Mr Teh's wife and daughter also could not tell the police how and where he had obtained the drug.

Sir, may I ask the Minister whether the stocks of all the suppliers of this drug were checked against their records?

Sir, I do not see that as a meaningful exercise and I do not think the Police did this, because they could go round checking all the pharmacies and what does it prove?

Is the Minister not aware that under the Poisons Act, a strict record has to be kept by all those who stock this poison, showing the amount of stock in their possession, how much was released and to whom? May this House know whether a thorough check was carried out on all suppliers?

Sir, this drug could be obtained anywhere in the world. It could have been obtained from outside Singapore. And if the Police were to be led, as Mr Jeyaretnam suggests, on a wild goose chase in checking all the drugstores, then it is really a waste of Police resources, unless Mr Jeyaretnam has information to show that indeed somebody actually prescribed him and gave him the drug that led to his suicide. Is he suggesting that?

Are we to understand from the Minister that no check was made on all the suppliers? May we also have an answer whether Mr Teh Cheang Wan returned to Singapore from abroad shortly before his death?

Sir, I am really puzzled by the sudden interest of Mr Jeyaretnam on this subject of how Mr Teh Cheang Wan got his drug more than 11 years ago. The Police had done all they could to determine how he got the drug by asking his doctors, his pharmacist and the people whom he could have obtained the drugs from. Unless the Member is able to give us some lead as to where the late Mr Teh got his drug, I am afraid that we will be on a wild goose chase, as Mr Chiam had led the House and the Commission of Inquiry on a wild goose chase many years ago. I do not know why Mr Jeyaretnam is interested in this question. I think nobody, other than the person who gave Mr Teh that drug or Mr Teh himself, would know where the drug came from. And even if that person who gave him the drug were to own up and say, "I am the one who gave", I do not think that can be corroborated because Mr Teh is already dead. So the only person who can really tell where Mr Teh got his drug from is Mr Teh. Maybe for those who are really interested in finding out where he got his drug from, I think that can be done one day when we leave this world. And if their path crosses that of Mr Teh Cheang Wan, ask him the question. Then their curiosity will be satisfied.

May I have another supplementary question, Sir?

All right, one last question.

All right, Sir. Thank you very much. Let us have an unequivocal answer. Are we to understand that the Government made no check on all the suppliers and the Government was not interested in finding out?

I think the question has been answered already. Mr Wong.

Sir, I think Mr Jeyaretnam is really making it sound like there is something sinister and is insinuating that the Government is on a cover up for Mr Teh Cheang Wan. I think he would not have forgotten that many years ago when he made such a suggestion with his ill conceived remarks, he paid $260,000 for those remarks. Here, I have given him answers free of charge and he is still not satisfied.

asked the Minister for the Environment whether Singapore's water supply remains safe for human consumption and its coastal water safe for swimming and water sports following the recent chemical fire in Tuas.

Sir, the recent fire in Tuas poses no danger at all to the safety of our water supply. The factory that was destroyed by fire on 7th March 1998 is located outside PUB's water catchment area. Water that was used to fight the fire was also discharged outside the water catchment area into the sea at the Northern Tuas Basin. The basin and the surrounding area are not used for swimming and other recreational activities. Nonetheless, as a precaution, we alerted the factories in the vicinity immediately to warn their workers not to use the water in the basin. We also issued a press statement on 7th March 1998 to advise members of the public to keep out of the area. By 9th March, the quality of the water in the Northern Tuas Basin had returned to normal. Sir, to protect our water resources, my Ministry requires industries that use or store hazardous chemicals to be sited in designated areas such as Tuas and the Jurong industrial estates, which are outside water catchment areas.

Sir, in view of the high concentration of chemical industries in that part of the island, I just like to ask whether there are special provisions to ensure that a major catastrophe would not contaminate our water around that area.

Sir, even though these are designated sites, we have very stringent requirements in place. For example, at the building plan stage, my Ministry would have already checked and ensured that there are adequate measures such as containment facilities, leak detection and warning devices, emergency plans in case something happens. All these are ready at the planning stage, even before the building plans are approved. This is to ensure that in the case of any accident, we are able to limit the damage to the environment and the health threats to not just the general population, but to people working in the immediate vicinity as well.

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [6th Allotted Day].

Head U - Resumption of Debate on Question [17th March, 1998], That the total sum to be allocated for Head U of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100. - [Mr Lew Syn Pau]. Question again proposed.

(In Mandarin): Sir, the Government does not allow single persons to buy flats directly from HDB. This is very unfair. Although two single citizens above the age of 35 can buy flats directly from the HDB, to have two unrelated persons buying a flat and living together harmoniously is a difficult task to accomplish. Even though they jointly apply for a new flat, they would not be able to get the same kind of subsidy granted by the Government to other citizens. If the argument against allowing a single person to buy a new flat is that it may be wasteful for him to live in a big flat all by himself, perhaps the HDB can restrict single persons to buying only 2-room or smaller flats. I would appeal to the Minister to allow single persons to individually buy a flat directly from HDB, and to give them the same kind of subsidy enjoyed by other citizens.

Sir, I join Dr Ker in making the same plea, because, presently, singles do not enjoy subsidised public housing unless they are aged 35 and above. They would then qualify for new flats under the Joint Singles Scheme. Singles do not find the current situation equitable and feel that they are discriminated against in the distribution of subsidies to Singaporeans. In a Straits Times' survey on 26th September 1997 on the attitudes of Singaporeans to public housing, 76% of the respondents believe that the Government should provide subsidies to singles to help them own HDB flats. Based on the 1995 general household survey, the number of single residents in the age group between 30 and 49 has increased from 69,000 or 3% of the population in 1980 to 184,000 or 6% of the population in 1995. In other words, in 15 years, it has doubled. As an aside, I would like to humbly point out that the Nominated MP, Madam Claire Chiang, in an earlier speech in this House, I believe, in the motion on tripartism moved by NMP Mr Cyrille Tan, said and I quote, "The 1990 Census Report reported that single parent family households comprise 60,999 households with widowed parents and 17,585 households with divorced parents, representing approximately 10% of all family-based households." Again, to put statistics into perspective, I would like to humbly point out that according to the Census Report of 1990, the number of heads of households who were widowed and divorced totalled 78,584 or 11.9% of total households. Out of these, 60,999 heads of households were widowed or about 9.2% of total households were thus single parent family households with widowed parents, as stated by Madam Chiang in her speech. In the same Census Report, there were 17,585 heads of households or 2.7% of total households who are divorced and not households with divorced parents, to quote Mdm Chiang. 12.45 pm Anyhow, Sir, I join Mdm Chiang and Dr Ker to make this plea to Government to review this policy for singles as many Singaporeans who are affected find themselves disadvantaged.

Sir, first let me thank Members for raising several issues on public housing policies. Let me take first Mr Zainul Abidin's request for a report of the effectiveness of last year's policy review. The public housing situation is now stabilized. As at end February 1998, there were 128,800 applicants on the waiting list. Of these, 60,800 are first-timers and 68,000 are upgraders. Compared to February last year, we had 141,000 applicants. So the situation today is better than last year. The new applications received by HDB are now more sustainable. HDB now receives about 1,000 to 1,500 applications per month. This trend, if sustained, will bring the annual demand for new HDB flats to a more realistic level of about 20,000 per year compared with the 67,000 that we received in 1996. The number of applications under the fiance-fiancee scheme has also dropped to a more realistic figure of 500 a month, about half the monthly figures that we received in 1996. There were also more first time applicants than upgraders recently. This should be the case as first-timer applicants should be and are given higher priority in owning their first flats. The revised policies have led to an overall reduction in the waiting time for new HDB flats. First-timer applicants for 4-room and 5-room flats in the north and west zones will now be able to book a flat in approximately 2 years, those in the north-east zone within 3 years, and those in the Punggol 21 queue slightly over 3 years. Upgrader applicants in all zones will have to wait longer for their flats, about 3 1/2 years for the north and west zones, about 4 years for the north-east zone, and more than 5 years for the Punggol 21 estate. Applicants are allowed to transfer their applications to another flat type or zone and their applications will be set back by three months on the queue. The revised resale levy imposed in 1997 has also discouraged frivolous demand from upgraders whose existing flats are already able to meet their existing needs. Prior to May 1997, there were about 300 new applications received per month from upgraders who were already existing lessees or ex-lessees of 5-room flats or bigger. This number has now dropped to an average of 22 per month. The vast majority of upgrader applications now are applicants from 4-room or smaller flats. These applicants are our target group for upgrading to a second flat. So the measures have achieved what we set out to do. HDB is building 35,000 flats in 1998, 27,000 for first-timers and 8,000 for upgraders. The waiting time for first-timers has shortened. We have weeded out the more frivolous demand. I would therefore say the overall impact of the 1997 revision in the policies has been positive. Let me now turn to the resale market for HDB flats as a backdrop to our subsequent discussion. Resale prices of HDB flats showed huge increases from 1993 to 1996. In May 1996, the Government introduced measures to curb speculation in the private residential property market. With the correction in prices for the private residential properties it is inevitable that HDB resale prices will also follow suit, especially for the top-end of the HDB resale market. A correction of prices at the top-end of the market will subsequently filter down to the smaller HDB flats. The 1997 HDB policy changes also curbed the speculative demand for HDB flats brought about by easy credit policy for HDB mortgage loans. This correction in the HDB resale prices is not unwelcomed, considering the huge increase in prices from 1993 to 1996. The correction has made resale flats more affordable. Upgraders who need extra living space or who want a flat fast can now consider buying flats from the resale market. For first-timers, they are assisted by a $40,000 CPF housing grant or $50,000 grant if they live near their parents. More and more first-timers are taking up the CPF housing grant to buy a resale flat. Let me now turn to pricing and affordability. Several Members have expressed concern that in the current economic downturn some HDB flat owners may not be able to afford HDB flats or they may face difficulties paying for the mortgage loans. I would like to reaffirm the Government's commitment to provide affordable public housing to Singapore citizens, especially first-timers and families in the lower income groups. As I have said several times, the Government's commitment is to price new HDB flats such that 90% of Singaporean households will be able to afford at least a 3-room flat and 70% at least a 4-room flat. This policy has not changed. In general, HDB flats are priced such that purchasers are able to pay their monthly loan instalments within the 30% limit of their monthly CPF contributions which can be used to pay for their housing. The cash outlay that flat applicants have to take out from their disposable income is minimal. HDB records show that in 1997 the average monthly loan instalment constituted around 25% to 30% of the gross household income of the purchasers. Also, 80% of purchasers were able to service their monthly household loans entirely from their CPF contributions. This proportion is very high considering that some purchasers are self-employed with no CPF contributions. A further proof that HDB flats are affordable is evident in the very low loan default rate. Last year, HDB recovered only 5 flats out of 430,000 flat owners with outstanding mortgage loans, arising from the purchasers' inability to service their monthly loan payments. To make sure that HDB flats remain affordable to Singaporeans even in the current economic conditions, we will monitor the affordability indicators very closely. Mr Zainul Abidin has raised concern about Government helping low income families own their flats. I can assure Members that MND would keep its eye on the ball and make sure that low income families continue to be able to afford HDB flats. In 1994, we announced four policies to allow them to do so: (i) the sale of rental flats to sitting tenants at a discount; (ii) sale of 3-room flats purchased by HDB from the open market and then sold to applicants, also at a discount; (iii) sale of smaller 4-room HDB flats; and (iv) priority allocation of 3- and 4-room flats to HDB rental flat tenants. These policies have been very successful and later on I will announce an extension of this programme. Mr Ong Kian Min asked about applicants or buyers who may have lost their jobs in the current economic turmoil and how HDB can help them service their loans. HDB has several measures to allow home buyers to reschedule their mortgage loans. First of all, we allow them to pay the mortgage loan arrears by instalments within a reasonable period. Secondly, we allow them to reschedule their loans up to the maximum repayment period that they are eligible for. Thirdly, we also allow those in hardship to defer payments of the loan instalments for an initial period of six months, and with a further extension of six months if their temporary difficulties continue. Fourthly, we can also convert their loan scheme to an easy repayment scheme. Under this scheme, the monthly instalment for the first five years is at 75% of the normal instalment amount. It is then recomputed from the 6th year onwards to the end of the repayment period, based on the outstanding loan on the 6th year. Finally, we also encourage the inclusion of a working family member as a joint owner so that the CPF monies of the new lessee can be used to pay for the arrears. Sir, I want to assure Mr Ong Kian Min that HDB would resort to recovering the flat due to loan default only as a last resort. Mr Ong also asked about applicants who may want to change to a smaller flat because of their difficulties. If applicants are unable to afford the flats they have booked because of financial difficulties, they can apply to HDB to cancel their applications or change their applications to smaller flats. On a case-by-case basis, depending on their circumstances, HDB will consider waiving the penalty fees for the cancellation and also the 3-month setback for the change of flat type. Mr Kenneth Chen has asked whether more first-timers are now applying for 5-room flats rather than smaller units and whether we should have some criteria to make sure they can afford to do so. As you all know, HDB has already implemented policies such as credit assessment to ensure that applicants buy flats within their affordability. The amount of loan HDB grants also depends on their age and household income and is capped such that the monthly instalments do not exceed 40% of the buyer's gross monthly income. With these conditions in place, there is therefore no need to impose further criteria for applicants of 5-room flats. We hope, and we encourage, all Singaporeans to buy within their means. Let me now turn to the issue of housing subsidies. The reason why HDB flats are affordable is because they are heavily subsidized. This question of public housing subsidy is a long-standing debate. It started in 1984 between Mr Chiam and the late Mr Teh Cheang Wan and continued in 1988-1989 between Mr Chiam and Mr S Dhanabalan. I assume Mr Chiam now understands housing policies and therefore we do not hear very much about this from him. But now we get a new "Chiam". Mr Low Thia Khiang wants to raise this debate. The most direct and the clearest manifestation of housing subsidy is the CPF housing grant of $40,000 for first-timer couples to buy a resale flat. This is the most direct subsidy. Furthermore, if the first-timer couple buys a resale flat within 2 km from their parent's flat they enjoy a higher grant of $50,000. In FY96, 4,692 first-timer families made use of this grant. A total of $203 million was disbursed. In FY97, based on current projection, the disbursement of CPF housing grant is estimated to go up to $223 million. This is the most direct form of housing subsidy. The extension of this CPF grant concept is the 3-room buy-back scheme. Here, HDB buys 3-room flats from the open market, pays the going market price and then sells the flats to applicants on the 3-room flat waiting list at a discount of up to $50,000. That is again a very direct form of housing subsidy. Since the scheme started in 1994, HDB has bought more than 7,500 3-room flats. The subsidy involved in this scheme amounts to about $375 million over the three years. Let me now turn to new HDB flats. There are 128,000 applicants on the queue. Why is that so? Because the subsidy is greater for those waiting for new flats than the $40,000 or $50,000 CPF grant. If the subsidy is less, then why wait so long in the queue? The Government's approach to pricing of HDB flats and housing subsidy is very clear. I have explained this many times. Let me reiterate the principles. 1.00 pm First, we will subsidise the smaller flats more than the bigger flats. Second, we will subsidise the less popular areas more than the popular areas. Mr Low Thia Khiang said that HDB made a development profit in the Sengkang contracts. This is no great revelation. I supplied those figures last month. For the bigger flats, especially the design-and-build flats in Sengkang, HDB made a development profit. In the Woodlands and Jurong West contracts, however, HDB made a development loss. Overall, HDB made a development loss of $280 million in 1997. If there is no subsidy, then why do we still have 40,000 applicants in the North-east queue waiting for flats in Sengkang Town? The reason is very simple. Because the average market subsidy of a new flat in Sengkang Town in 1997 was $103,000. Mr Low Thia Khiang gave these numbers, which were supplied in February. I hope he would take these numbers and publicise them in The Hammer. Publicise these numbers widely, tell all the Workers' Party supporters that the Government made a development profit in Sengkang and that therefore they should withdraw from the North-east queue. We have 40,000 applicants in the North-east queue. I assume the Workers' Party can command 10-20% of support from Singaporeans. So I shall look forward to perhaps 4,000 to 8,000 of Workers' Party supporters listening to Mr Low Thia Khiang, knowing that the Government made a profit and, therefore, withdraw from the North-east queue. If that happens, I will buy Mr Low a very good lunch. An hon. Member: Dinner.

Dinner! Would Mr J. B. Jeyaretnam object to him having dinner with a PAP member? If Mr Low wants to publicise these numbers further, I can help him even further. There are 1,400 constituents in Hougang Constituency who are on the North-east queue. HDB can provide a direct mailing list to these 1,400 applicants, tell them that Mr Low says that Sengkang flats are not subsidised, that the Government made a development profit and, therefore, they should withdraw from the queue. Singaporeans are not stupid! They know whether there is a subsidy in HDB flats or not. Mr S. Dhanabalan took some pains to explain the concept of market subsidy to Mr Chiam. I hope Mr Chiam now understands the meaning of a market subsidy. The concept of market subsidy is nothing new. It is practised in Hong Kong. It is a very complicated system in Hong Kong. Let me just explain the gist of it. In Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Housing Authority sells a flat to the Hong Kong resident at a price. When they sell the flat, they estimate what is the market price of the flat that they are selling and, therefore, what is the price that they are selling, the discount of the flat that they are selling, compared to the market price. So if they sell a flat at, say, 35% discount of the market price - the market price is compared to the private property in Hong Kong - that 35% discount is levied when the Hong Kong residents sell their flats 10 years later. So when the Hong Kong Housing Authority sells you a flat, they tell you that this price is at 35% discount of the market price. You are not allowed to sell your flat until 10 years later. When you sell your flat 10 years later, they levy 35% on the market price. In Singapore, we do not do such a thing. We allow you to sell your first flat and you do not pay a levy. You only pay a levy if you re-enter for a second flat. We also allow you to sell after five years, not after 10 years. And when we talk about market subsidy in Singapore, we are comparing the price of HDB flats to the resale HDB price, not to the private property as in Hong Kong. So what does this all add up to? In the latest HDB's audited accounts for FY96, the deficit for sale of flats amounted to $1 billion. This comprises the development losses that HDB incurred from the sale of new HDB flats as well as the market discount for the sale of 3-room flats to low-income families. For FY97, the accounts are not audited yet, but HDB expects to incur a deficit of about $600 million for its sale of flats activity. As I said earlier, HDB incurred a development loss of about $280 million in 1997. HDB incurred $100 million in the buy-back of 3-room flats, and there is another $200 million of subsidies in CPF grants. All these numbers have been published in HDB's accounts since 1985. There is no great revelation in what Mr Low said yesterday. In fact, as I have offered, we will be happy if he publicises these figures and encourages the people to withdraw from the Sengkang queue. Let me now turn to CPF grant for the singles. This is an appeal made several times by MPs in this House. I am happy to announce that, with effect from 1st June 1998, the Government will extend the CPF Housing Grant Scheme to single citizens to help them purchase HDB resale flats. Single citizens who purchase a resale flat under this scheme will get a grant of $15,000. Joint singles who purchase a resale flat under the Joint Singles Scheme will get a grant of $30,000. Why $15,000? We feel that the singles should not have the same amount of grant as the first-timer couple. In fact, the grant should be less than half, and therefore we have pegged it at $15,000. Let me also say that with effect from 1st June 1998, singles can only purchase HDB flats from the resale market, either under the Singles Scheme or the Joint Singles Scheme. They can no longer purchase a flat directly from HDB. So those who are on the queue now, under the Joint Singles Scheme, to purchase flats directly from HDB, we will keep that queue. But from today, HDB will not take anymore applications under the Joint Singles Scheme for direct HDB flats. Why is that so? Because with this grant, we would like singles to now purchase flats from the resale market and not add to HDB queue. In addition, we have been noticing a trend of singles incorporating single elderly in the Joint Singles application. We think this is an abuse of the system because a single would bring in another elderly single, a grandaunt or a relative, but there is no intention at all that the two would stay together. They would get a new flat and the single would then stay in that flat on her own. So we are stopping the Scheme as of today. Let me now turn to upgrading. The Main Upgrading Programme was introduced in 1990. Since then, we have announced 12 batches, comprising 73,000 flats. The IUP now involves more than 100,000 flats. In other words, almost one in every three HDB flats has undergone or is undergoing some form of upgrading, either under the MUP or IUP. This is a very massive programme. It is a key programme to share the wealth with Singaporeans. With this current economic slowdown, there is a need to review the MUP and IUP schedules. As we have announced, the MUP schedule will be slowed down from 15 precincts last year to 10 precincts this year. When the economy recovers, we will then bring the programme back to its original scale. Similarly, the IUP programme will be scaled down to between 16 and 20 precincts this year. I thank Mr Ong Kian Min for his support of this slowdown, but not the reasons for his support. Mr Ong supported the slowdown because he said that the cost-sharing is a burden to the HDB lessees who participate in this programme. I can assure Members that this is not so. First of all, lessees who participate in the MUP programme do not have to pay their portion of the cost-sharing in a one-off payment. They can take a loan. If they cannot afford the loan, we can keep in view the loan until they sell the flat. So it is not true that participating in the MUP is a financial burden. Mr Lew Syn Pau asked whether we could reschedule or reorganise the MUP programme so that it would not take so long. HDB has worked out this arrangement in the best way of saving cost and a smooth flow of work. But I leave it to individual MPs and their architects and consultants. If they want to call a tender with a different way of organising their MUP programme, they are free to do so. The only requirement is - do not bust the budget. Dr Teo Ho Pin asked for upgrading of 1-room and 2-room flats. He gave the impression that the MUP programme is targeted at 3-room flats and above and that the 1- and 2-room flats have been left out of the programme. That is not so. Under the MUP and the IUP programmes, the 1- and 2-room flats which form part of the precinct will similarly be upgraded. And if they are rental flats, the HDB pays for all the costs. So far, 10,000 of such 1- and 2-room flats have been selected for the MUP. Another 3,800 have been selected for the IUP. Upon completion of the MUP, some of the 2-room flats will be sold to the sitting tenants at a discount. In addition to this, HDB has a programme to upgrade 1-room flats, to improve the living conditions of the elderly living in these 1-room flats. I have explained this several times. Since 1993, we have upgraded 1-room rental blocks and, together with the VWOs, we will then provide services to the elderly. This programme has been very successful. The project is now being implemented for 25 1-room rental blocks, comprising 7,800 units. So the elderly living in these units will benefit. Let me also take this opportunity to announce that HDB will undertake an Ad Hoc Upgrading Programme for 2-room rental blocks. As I have said earlier, when the 2-room rental blocks are upgraded under the MUP, we will sell them to the sitting tenants at a discount, after the upgrading is completed. HDB has identified 54 blocks of rental flats that are suitable for sale to sitting tenants. So far, 18 of these 54 blocks have been included for upgrading under the MUP. Another 22 blocks are within the MUP age band and will be grouped with the neighbouring blocks for MUP upgrading over the next few years. We therefore have the remaining 14 blocks which fall outside the MUP age band. Under normal circumstances, it will be several years before we can upgrade these units and sell them to sitting tenants. So we are taking this opportunity to undertake an Ad Hoc Programme to upgrade these 14 blocks in four batches, starting from the third quarter this year and the whole programme should be finished by the year 2002. When we have upgraded the units, we will then sell them to the sitting tenants. So this is one of the extensions of the programme to allow low income families to buy flats even during this economic downturn. Let me now turn to the IUP programme. Several Members have raised this issue about lift upgrading. Let me just say that even within the budget of $6,000 per unit, some town councils were able to implement lift upgrading. Nevertheless, last year, we increased the budget to $7,000 so as to facilitate lift upgrading during the MUP. In response to the appeals made by Members in this House, the Government will now raise the budget for IUP to $8,000 per unit for the next batch of IUP, provided you undertake lift upgrading. If you do not undertake lift upgrading, then the budget is cut back to $5,000. Then Members will be able to implement what they have been saying all along. Dr Teo asked about lifts in private housing estates. Under the Land Titles (Strata) Act, the management corporation is allowed to collect service and conservancy charges and set aside a portion of these charges as sinking fund for the upgrading of lifts. If the sinking fund is not sufficient, the management corporation can pass a resolution at the general meeting to levy the cost of lift replacement from the owners of the private housing estate. Therefore, we encourage the owners and the management corporations to plan in advance for such cyclical upgrading works. I believe I have answered most of the queries raised. I would be prepared to respond if I have left out anything.

Can I confirm with the Minister that (1) there is no Government subsidy for the new HDB flats in Sengkang? (2) Does the Government make development profits from the sale of these flats in Sengkang? Another clarification is: would the selling price of new HDB flats, let us say, in the north zone, be increased if more applicants apply for flats in the zone?

Can I clarify also? I would like to ask the Minister why the HDB has never published the development cost or the cost of building each flat. Will the HDB be willing to publish the cost of building each flat?

It looks like I need another session of economics 101. The concept of market subsidy ---

I am talking about subsidy, not market subsidy.

I am telling you the concept of market subsidy is what the commodity will be priced in the market and what you are paying for it. Singaporeans are not that stupid. Singaporeans will gain no pleasure at all if HDB, instead of making a development loss of $280 million, makes a development loss of $2,800 million because of inefficiency. Singaporeans are not interested in what HDB makes or loses. When they buy a flat, they are interested in the value of the flat in the market and what they are paying for it. And that is the market subsidy. And as I have explained, the market subsidy for a Sengkang flat is $103,000. That is why we have more than 40,000 applicants in the queue. For development contracts in Sengkang, in some contracts, we made a development gain, in some contracts, we made a development loss. In a design-and-build contract, we price them higher because they cost more and there are extra design features. There is a bigger development gain. Overall, for 1997, HDB made a total development loss of $280 million. And as I have said, the Government's intention is to subsidise the smaller flats and the less popular estates more. As for the development cost per unit, maybe I need another tutorial on arithmetic 101. HDB publishes in its annual accounts the development cost of the flats it sells. It also publishes the number of units it sells. If you take the two, you get the development cost per unit. That is not a very meaningful figure because the development cost per unit, if you get an average figure like that, it averages the development cost of a 4-room flat to an Executive flat from mature estates to new town. So I do not see the gain in HDB publishing the development cost per unit. But if you want that number, just take the two figures in the Annual Report and divide it.

I do not think this is economics 101. It is a question of subsidy of HDB flats which is a big issue and in fact very complicated. First of all, the land cost. The Government acquires land compulsorily, not at market price but at a price fixed by the Government. In the early days, it was 1976 price, then 1985 price. Now we have got the January 1991 price. All these prices are lower than the market value. So the Government has already made money on the land for a start. It spends money on clearance cost. Then it tenders out for development of HDB flats. Of course, the Government has to take away some land for roads and other power plants. But taking all that into account, I believe the Government prices the land for sale of each unit at market value and not the acquired value. So the Government has already made money on the land. As regards the contracts, I wish the accounts of HDB could give the detailed contract prices of each development. We have got structural and piling cost. We have got finance cost and electricity, sewerage cost. I wish they could give all these in detail. We can add them all up and see how much the Government has spent and the number of units. Then we would know the true value of the flat. We will take the selling price and I will tell you that there is no subsidy. The Government makes on the sale of HDB flats.

I am sorry I give Mr Chiam more credit than it is due. Apparently, the years of exchange with Mr Teh and Mr S. Dhanabalan have made no imprint at all. All these numbers are in the HDB's accounts and they are all added up for you. We do not have to give you all the individual accounts for you to aggregate. These are all in the accounts audited by the Auditor-General and published in the HDB's Annual Report. It shows the development cost. It shows the selling prices and it shows the development loss or gain for the whole year as well as per unit. So all these numbers have been published since 1985. Mr Chiam is back to his old hobbyhorse about land prices. As Mr S. Dhanabalan explained to him way back in 1988, since 1988 HDB has been buying land from the Government at a price set by the Chief Valuer and sold by the Land Office. That price is determined by the Chief Valuer. That price is a fraction of the private market land price. It is not meaningful to talk about land prices based on old acquisition cost. I have raised this example many times. I will raise it again. If you price a unit based on historical cost, it makes nonsense of the pricing. For example, we are building flats in Gillman Camp. This is an old armed forces land. Therefore, the price is free of charge. We are going to reclaim land in Punggol. It is going to cost us a lot of money. So the price would be very high. If we go by his accounting, we will price the central area at Gillman flats much cheaper than Punggol flats. Why? Because the land historically is priced at zero cost to the Government and therefore we should sell them at a much lower price than Punggol flats. If that is how Mr Chiam will run the government, then I think he better gets his arithmetics and economics right.

Clarification, Sir. Is it correct that, based on my calculation, HDB makes a gross profit of more than $44 million from selling of those flats that I cited in my speech in Sengkang? I think it is better to get these things clear here. I am talking about Government subsidy. I am not talking about market subsidy. For instance, Carrefour sells some goods which are below market price. Then you can call it market subsidy, if you want to. I am talking about Government subsidy. Would the Minister enlighten this House what is his definition of "subsidy" and whether those flats in Sengkang that I cited in my speech yesterday under the various contracts are subsidised by the Government?

Since 1988, Mr S. Dhanabalan has been trying to explain to Members the meaning of "subsidy". "Subsidy" means what the commodity can fetch on the market and what you are paying for it. That is a subsidy.

Government subsidy?

Call it what you like, that is what Singaporeans benefit from buying an HDB flat directly from us. Mr Low has his point. You can go round. In fact, I encourage him to publicise those numbers that he has and draw the conclusions from there to both the Workers' Party as well as to all his constituents in Hougang. In fact, I will help him with the direct mailing list. Tell them that this is his calculations, that in the Sengkang flats, the number which I gave him, Government made X dollars of development gain and therefore HDB flats are not subsidised. Therefore, as their leader and elected representative, he will advise them to quickly withdraw from the North-East queue because HDB flats are not subsidised. Please do that.

Clarification, Sir. I do not know where the Minister has got the definition of "subsidy" from. Maybe it is a mixed definition. What I understand from the Oxford Universal Dictionary, the definition of "subsidy" is a grant or contribution of money. But in this particular case, I stated that for the Sengkang flats, the Government makes a profit. It does not contribute any money in the development of the new flats. And I asked him just now whether the selling price of flats in the north zone will increase if there are more applicants.

As I have explained in my speech earlier, the Government's pricing policy goes on certain principles. First, we will price 3-room flats such that 90% of first-time households would be able to afford it. We buy these flats from the market and we subsidise it to the level that 90% of Singaporeans can afford a 3-room flat. Today, that direct grant is $50,000 per flat. Similarly, when you buy a new flat from Government, you are enjoying a market subsidy, what you pay for the flat and what the flat is worth in the open market, and that subsidy is $103,000 in Sengkang. If you say that this is inequitable, I agree with you. In which case, we should raise the prices of flats in Sengkang.

Sir, I do not think the Minister has answered my questions. I have raised two questions. First, what is the Minister's definition of "subsidy", and not market subsidy? I am talking about subsidy. Second, will the selling price of the new HDB flats in the north zone be increased further if, let us say, they are more popular, as the Minister's answer is that the price is based on popularity?

Subsidy, as I have explained many times, is the difference between what you pay in the market and what you are paying today. That is subsidy. For the north zone flats, the principle which I enunciated is that the Government will subsidise the less popular areas more than the more popular areas. Why? Because we have a building programme and we want to encourage Singaporeans to buy into the building programme. Today, we have more than 40,000 applicants in the Sengkang queue. Why? Because it is a very popular town. Because the subsidy there is much higher. Otherwise, why would people apply for Sengkang Town? [Mr Low Thia Khiang interrupted.] Precisely. And the more you raise about this issue, the more the prices in Sengkang will go up. 1.30 pm

Sir, thank you for giving me this chance to ask the Minister a question. I think we have heard enough of subsidies. I am just asking a very practical question. I think most of us at our meet-the-people sessions would have come across this. These upgraders who are receiving keys to the new flats face this problem of not being able to sell their present flat. Would the Minister allow them to take up the new flats after they have sold their present flat? Of course, we must make some provisos. In other words, if the owner has made several attempts to sell his flat, and we can check this from advertisements in the newspaper whether he has really made an attempt to sell his flat, and he gets no response from the advertisements, would HDB be able to buy back those flats at HDB's assessed value?

HDB will generally allow a lessee more time to dispose of his first flat, after he has taken possession of his second flat, based on evidence that he has tried to sell off the flat but he could not find a buyer. HDB will normally extend the time for him to dispose of the flat. The answer to his second question is no, HDB will not be the buyer of last resort. We leave it to the individual to dispose of his flat in the open market.

Sir, according to the latest available statistics, divorces granted under the Women's Charter have been increasing substantially, the number more than doubling in the space of 10 years. Muslim divorces also saw a steady increase. The Department of Statistics reported that the divorce rate tends to be higher among younger married persons. The majority of divorcees were aged between 30 and 39 years in divorces granted in 1996. In divorce proceedings, the distribution of matrimonial property is usually an issue. If the matrimonial home is an HDB flat, the issue is whether it be offered for sale or retained by one of the spouses. Several problems have occurred concerning this matter. First, if they purchased an HDB flat as the matrimonial home, they would be treated as upgraders when they sell their flat following their divorce. This means that they will be barred from applying another HDB flat for 10 years. A couple who bought a flat in 1989 and who sold it in 1995 will have to wait until 1999 before they are eligible to apply for a new flat. Meanwhile, the displaced divorcee will have to stay with relatives, friends or rent another flat. Second, the spouse who is given the opportunity to keep the flat will have to be eligible under one of the schemes, execute another mortgage and pay the other party a sum that reflects his contribution. This may be a mission impossible for the lower income groups. In a case that I recently dealt with, a young mother, who has custody of her two children, has been asked to take a new mortgage of $50,000 where she is expected to pay $300 per month over 29 years, and to provide over $110,000 cash to discharge the existing sum owed. She only earns around $800-$900 a month. It is impossible for her to come out with such a large sum. So, for this category of persons, it appears that the rules do not work at all. Renting a flat is also a problem, because the divorcee might not fall within the $800 level. I think that level is set too low. A more realistic figure, bearing in mind that the spouse may have to take care of children, may be around $1,500. Mind you, Sir, this does not even mean that they will definitely get a flat. The queues are long and the divorcees are not regarded as a special class. Frankly, my concern is for the children of broken marriages. Nothing could be more traumatic for them than to see their parents separating. On top of that, they find that they are no longer at the home, suffer severe financial hardship and may have to rely on the goodwill of relatives and the like. Sir, the plight of divorcees who are unable, after they are divorced, to come up with funds to cover the cost of ownership is a very real one. Perhaps a more flexible rental policy can be implemented to allow them to live as a family unit as best as they can. We should, at the end of the day, also think of the children who must have been through a great deal of mental anguish. Let us not make it more difficult for them. The Minister has just now demonstrated an incredible ability to come out with fair and just solutions. And I hope that in this case, he will also do so for this group of unfortunate people.

Sir, my topic is on HDB car parks. With the introduction of electronic road pricing, the car population will grow more rapidly as more COEs will be issued. This will lead to a greater demand for car park places, especially in HDB estates. I understand that HDB has been building multi-storey car parks for both new estates and those undergoing Main Upgrading Programmes (MUP). Although these car park provisions will meet the new demand, not much has been done to increase the car parking places in semi-mature estates. Presently, some semi-mature estates such as Bukit Panjang are facing problems of inadequate car parking places. Thus, I would like to urge the Minister to consider the following suggestions: (a) Build more multi-storey car parks in semi-mature estates immediately to overcome the shortage of car parks. Available state land or HDB land in semi-mature estates should be utilised either temporarily or permanently as car parks. (b) Incorporate the construction of multi-storey car parks into the Interim Upgrading Programme (IUP). The Government should increase the grant for IUP so that multi-storey car parks can be built together with the provision of landscaped gardens, covered linkways, and other facilities in the open spaces. This will reduce wastage when the Main Upgrading Programme is implemented for these estates. (c) HDB should standardise the fees for both multi-storey car parks and open space car parks to $50 monthly. This would facilitate the grouping of car parks for season parking and encourage residents to use multi-storey car parks. (d) Convert all open space car parks for season parking only between 10 pm and 7 am. Overnight parking for visitors should be restricted to multi-storey car parks or less utilised open space car parks. (e) Relocate trees that are occupying car park lots In conclusion, I hope the Ministry can take immediate steps to resolve the shortage of car park lots in semi-mature estates before the full impact of the ERP is felt.

(In Mandarin): Sir, with the aging of the flats in the older estates and the frequent resale of flats, there are many incidences of leaking ceiling caused by renovation works. Under the present HDB policy, residents who have leaking ceilings will have to bear the repair cost, because the ceiling is a party structure belonging jointly to the adjoining flats. Therefore, the owners of these two units are jointly liable for the repair cost. Normally, when the Area Office receives a complaint, they will send their officials to investigate the matter within three days. The Area Office will write to the two parties involved within nine days so that they could proceed with the repair works. The Area Office would also recommend contractors to the residents who have difficulty in getting the appropriate contractor. Normally, repairing a leaking toilet would cost about $1,200. This means that each unit will have to bear $600. Normally, the people living upstairs are reluctant to pay for the cost of repair and this will cause delay in the repairs. The Area Office will then have to inform the legal officers in the HDB head office and normally this will be done one month after receiving the complaint. After the first letter is issued and if no action is taken by the resident living upstairs, a reminder will be sent. So the whole process would take about 73 days or about two and a half months after the complaint before work can commence. Very often the people living upstairs will say that they have no money as an excuse and keep on delaying. Taking more than three months to resolve a leaking ceiling in the toilet is indeed a cause of great regret. Sir, we are a multi-racial society. If the people living upstairs and downstairs are of different races they may have a misunderstanding caused by the language differences. This will certainly be very bad to our efforts to promote racial harmony and enhance social cohesion. I feel that the Area Office could resolve such matters as leaking toilet ceiling easily, because as soon as the Area Office has received the complaint and investigated, and found that the complaint is substantiated, they could call up the two parties involved and tell them the cost of repair and how much they have to pay. So it could be resolved in three to five days' time. I hope the Minister would pay more attention to this matter because this is happening more and more often now.

Sir, the Transitional Rental Housing Scheme (TRHS) was introduced in October 1991 with the aim of providing interim housing to young couples who are waiting for the completion of their home ownership flats. In October 1995, the HDB introduced improvements to the TRHS to make it easier for first-time applicants to get interim housing. As a result, the demand for TRHS flats more than doubled from 1,200 applications in July 1995 to an average of 2,800 in every quarterly exercise subsequently. In the July 1997 quarterly exercise, 2,840 applications were received for the 500 units. HDB introduced various new measures in October 1997 with the provision of 1-room flats and the buying back of 2- and 3-room flats from the open market. HDB increased the number of flats offered under each TRHS quarterly exercise by 20%, from the current 500-600 units from the October 1997 exercise. Sir, I applaud HDB for this effort. However, what I would like to ask the Minister is about the waiting time for the TRHS applicants. As he has mentioned just now, the queuing time for Registration of Flats Scheme (RFS) has been reduced drastically, from about five years to even two years for some areas. I would like to ask the Minister whether there are similar guidelines to reduce the waiting time for TRHS applicants, because for many of them who need interim housing, there is a more urgent need to get this housing because of the size of the family and for various other reasons, as we hear from our meet-the-people session cases. Therefore, it is more urgent for them to get this housing. I would like to ask the Minister whether HDB has a similar target to shorten waiting time for TRHS applicants. 1.45 pm

(In Mandarin): Sir, with regard to the Government's announcement to freeze JTC's and HDB's rentals for industrial and commercial properties, I would like to convey the gratitude on behalf of the industrial and commercial sector in Singapore. This shows that the Government is beginning to attach importance to the problem of exorbitant rentals faced by the industrial and commercial sector. However, I regret to say that the Government has yet to thoroughly resolve this problem, to embody the spirit of common sharing of joy and sorrow among the tripartite parties of labour, management and Government. Sir, over the years, the small and medium-sized enterprises have been loyal tenants of HDB. In response to HDB raising its rental year by year, they have been taking it in their stride and appear to be rather helpless. Once they do not accept the rental increases they will have to get ready to move out or to wind up the business which they have painstakingly built up. They will have to suffer great business and financial losses. Why has HDB been turning a blind eye to the hardship of the tenants? Is it because they are not interested in the well-being of the tenants? When adjusting the rentals, HDB seems to give people the impression that it is very calculative and very "kiasu". In the final analysis, it must be closely linked to the budget objectives set by HDB. From HDB's budget, we can see that in leasing out the industrial and commercial properties, HDB's main objective is to make a profit and the rentals are pegged to the highest rate in the market. According to the workload and performance indicators set down in the budget, the rate of return of commercial properties has actually been raised from 8.2% in 1993 to 11.7% in 1997, and the rate of return of industrial properties has increased from 13.7% in 1993 to 19.7% in 1997. Although this year HDB has adjusted the estimated rate of return down to 10.9% for commercial properties, it is still higher than the 10.7% in 1996. As for industrial properties, although the estimated rate of return has been adjusted downwards to 3 percentage points lower than the 18.8% in 1996, it is still maintained at a high of 15.7%. Apparently, faced with a situation of not being able to "have the cake and eat it", HDB will necessarily overlook the business cost and competitiveness of its tenants when it fixes its rentals. As a gigantic landlord, HDB, in fixing the supply of industrial and commercial properties and their rentals, is capable of influencing the rentals and business cost of the entire market. In this difficult time, if HDB still insists on maintaining a high profit, then it will not only be unrealistic but also will force many SMEs to stop their business, thereby aggravating the adverse conditions of our economy. I must emphasize that the industrial and commercial rentals in the neighbouring countries are already very cheap as compared to Singapore, in the light of the substantial devaluation of their currencies. It will be extremely difficult for Singapore to compete with them. As such, I would like to appeal to the Government to review the objectives and policies of HDB in terms of rental revision to ensure that it will not overlook the overall competitive edge of our country while trying to make a surplus. Furthermore, rentals of private properties have already come down. HDB's rentals should also be adjusted correspondingly to be closer to the market price and should not remain at the high level. As regards the 15% rebate on property tax for commercial and industrial properties, as announced by the Government, I consider it as negligible as compared to the very high rentals. Sir, in order to help lighten the rental burden of the business community so that more funds could be channelled to improving the productivity of different business operations, and at the same time to maintain our competitive edge, vis-a-vis our neighbours, I urge the Government to make a resolute decision to take appropriate measures to further lower HDB's factory and shop rentals. At the same time, I hope that related agencies, like JTC and PSA will also take corresponding measures to lower the rentals of their industrial land, factories and warehouses so as to help the business community to keep the operation cost at a reasonable level, and to maintain our competitive edge over our neighbouring countries.

Sir, just like the HDB residential estates, the old HDB industrial estates also need major upgrading or redevelopment in order to better utilize the land, many of which are on prime locations. Redevelopment will also lead to more well designed industrial premises with more modern and efficient features and facilities. It would enhance the productivity of lessees and tenants, many of whom are small and medium-sized enterprises. Although the redevelopment of HDB industrial estates has been announced last year, I am not sure if every affected tenant or lessee has been informed. I would like to ask the Minister whether HDB will inform those affected as early as possible so that they can plan for their relocation. I would also like to know the response of those who have been informed so far. With the economic downturn, I would like to ask the Minister what further measures HDB would take to help their tenants and lessees tide over this difficult period.

Sir, HDB industrial estates were mostly developed in the 70s and 80s to cater for small and medium-sized factories which were then affected by land clearance and resettlement. With continued economic growth over the last two decades, the business volumes of these factories have grown and factory space is now grossly inadequate in supporting this expansion. For example, the roads are very narrow and therefore constantly jammed by heavy vehicles. With the loading and unloading of goods, sometimes occupying one side of the road, bottlenecks have resulted, affecting the flow of traffic. Furthermore, there is an acute shortage of parking space for container trucks. Defu industrial estate which is located in Paya Lebar constituency is a case in point. The Ministry of National Development is aware of the above problems and in February 1997 HDB announced that under the HDB Industrial Redevelopment Programme it will redevelop industrial estates in stages, with the programme ending in the year 2007. For industrial tenants in the Defu industrial estate, they will probably have to wait for another 7 to 10 years before their lease expires and redevelopment can take place. However, during this period, it is difficult for them to continue to expand production under present conditions. Due to space constraint, some tenants have resorted to building mezzanine floors illegally or undertake illegal extensions of existing factory premises. Once discovered by HDB they will be ordered to remove such alterations. In order to solve their problems, I would like to suggest that HDB bring forward the plan to redevelop Defu industrial estate as soon as possible. HDB can compensate the tenants for the unexpired lease period by offering them new factory premises. HDB should also consider building one or two new blocks of multi-storey buildings there for those who would like to move into a bigger factory space as soon as possible and develop the rest of the estate in stages. Meanwhile, for those who have to wait a few more years for their new factories, HDB should consider permitting some reasonable extension of space as long as the extension and the resultant structures meet safety requirements. Where possible, road widening should be carried out and more temporary car parks built for heavy vehicles in the estate. In this manner, the inconvenience of an outdated industrial estate can be minimised for the time being while the tenants wait for a totally revamped industrial estate in Defu.

Sir, before I ask the question, I wish to declare my interest as a management staff of NTUC Fairprice. In Singapore, we have a land use planning policy where various categories of land are designated for various uses, some for industries, some for commercial, and some for residential. There is a category of retailers or foreign retailers who have come into Singapore and who have been using industrial spaces or land for such kind of retail purposes. I am not talking about warehouse sales. Warehouse sales where warehouses occasionally have their sales once in a while for promotion or for clearance, that is acceptable. But I am talking about industrial land or warehouses actually being used as shopping complexes. Land being scarce in Singapore, the proper use of industrial land should be for industries to generate jobs for high-value added contribution to the economy. I hope the Minister can look into this aspect of it and not allow such retailers who come in with new concepts and so on using such kind of industrial land. The difference is because commercial rentals and industrial rentals vary by a very big factor, two to three times. So people who operate in this kind of situation, in this kind of land or spaces, have a very unfair advantage. The retail sector in Singapore right now is suffering and it is not a joy to see the state of competition being so uneven.

Mr Chairman, Sir, my topic is on cost reduction for public projects. I would like to propose the following measures to reduce the construction cost of public projects for the Ministry to consider. (1) Design-and-build tenders. All public projects should not invite more than 3 firms for design-and-build tenders. It is costly and time-consuming to prepare such tenders especially when details and models are required for the tender submission. This would reduce wastage of resources of the construction industry. I understand that HDB has adopted this measure and would urge all other Government departments to follow likewise. (2) Bulk purchase of basic building materials. All Government departments should adopt HDB's approach in purchasing basic building materials in bulk for contractors working in their projects. This procurement method provides price stability, ensures availability of material supply, and reduces the cost of building materials. (3) Clerk-of-work and resident engineer. We need to review the roles and impact of clerk-of-work and resident engineer on the productivity of public projects. The performance of clerk-of-work and resident engineer should be closely monitored as they have direct influence on the progress of the project. They should be paid by employers and inclusive of overtime charges. (4) Standardization and modularization. Public projects should adopt a high level of standardization and modularization of building components and elements. Standard sizes of beams, columns, floor slabs, windows and doors will facilitate the use of precast technology and mass manufacturing. The use of standard components will expedite construction and also increase productivity. (5) Project financing. Government departments can provide project financing such as advance initial payment, timely progress payment, and early settlement of final accounts. This would reduce the borrowing cost of contractors, thus reducing the cost of public projects. (6) Provide housing for foreign workers. Recently, JTC has been purchasing HDB flats to rent them out to their workers. Likewise, the Ministry should also consider either allocating low cost land for contractors to build housing for their foreign workers or build housing for these workers. In addition, vacant site or vacant state land should be let out at lower rental to contractors for site office and storage purposes. (7) Disposal of construction wastes. It is costly to dump construction wastes such as excavated earth, metal, wood, glass and concrete waste. Presently, all contractors are making their own arrangements to dispose these construction wastes which may be uneconomical at times. 2.00 pm The Ministry should centralise and out-source the disposal of construction wastes to disposal firms. Term contracts could be called for different regions. This would provide and reduce the cost of waste disposal drastically, and also at the same time prevent indiscriminate dumping of wastes.

Sir, there are many condominiums and landed properties that are being used as boarding houses for foreign workers. As there is a healthy demand for this, many house owners are increasingly leasing out their properties to foreign workers and, of course, with the permission granted from URA. But somehow it seems that the number of applications is on the increase. Sir, the problem really is the abuse by foreign workers of these rented dwelling units, especially in landed properties, particularly terrace houses which house up to 30 to 40 people in one dwelling unit. In fact, there are many such rental dwelling units in various parts of Singapore. In my own constituency, the practice is somewhat prevalent in the Cambridge area, Carlisle Road area, and around the Sing Avenue and Joo Avenue areas. These foreign workers are probably village folks who are ignorant that they are a nuisance to their neighbours and may be oblivious of the mess that they create around the house, with their sardine tins, broken beer bottles and the loads of rubbish that they create. Or they may be just jealous, perhaps vindictive, of their richer Singapore neighbours. Ignorant or vindictive, their action has caused an avalanche of problems for Singaporeans living in the estate. Let me highlight some of these problems. (1) Many of these foreign worker dwelling units are not only packed with workers, but are also packed with lots of wooden furniture and partitions that they become real fire hazards. Sir, I refer the House to this Straits Times report, 4th January 1998, written by Mr Jasbir Singh, and he stated: "This is the second time in less than two months that foreign workers have died in a shophouse blaze. On November 15th, four Malaysians were killed in a Jalan Besar fire staying in quarters like this." (2) Then, just a few days ago, there is reason to believe that foreign workers' housing also facilitates mosquito breeding and is causing dengue fever. Straits Times, 14th March, stated 28 cases of dengue fever near Tan Tock Seng Hospital in my constituency. (3) These foreign workers cause noise pollution because they tend to speak very loud, especially at night, disturbing the neighbourhood. (4) Some of these foreign workers have been caught for snatch thefts or outraging of modesty of the females in the area. Therefore, having these workers in the area is a security hazard; and (5) All these problems result in a drop in the valuation of properties in the area which further upsets Singaporean owners living in these neighbourhoods. And it is no fault of theirs. Sir, I asked my constituency's private residents' committee and the constituency's secretariat to take up this critical issue with the URA. The reply from URA stated: "The Planning Act does not control the number of people residing in residential estates and neither does it regulate the rental of residential properties." In other words, the number of people residing is not regulated in a particular unit. Then we wrote to the Ministry of Labour. The reply from the Ministry of Labour stated: "It is stated in the work permit condition that an employer must provide adequate housing for the foreign worker employed by him." And they went on and ended the letter by saying, "However, the Ministry of Labour is not the authority responsible for specifying the building requirements." Then someone checked with BCD under the Ministry of National Development to see whether they control the number of residents in a dwelling unit, and BCD has no control either. So we have been talking to URA, Ministry of Labour, BCD, ENV, the Police to solve some of these security problems and so on, and yet the problems remain unsolved, except for the occasional raids by URA and others on some of these dwelling units. Sir, certainly this episode looks like an episode out of the British TV series, "Yes, Minister". Therefore, I would like to urge the Minister to look into the following: (1) To work much closely with other bodies, like MTI, JTC and so on, to ensure that workers are not housed in large numbers in urban areas or landed properties but in other older flats in outskirts, preferably away from Singaporean housing, if that can be found. I think, to some extent, this is being done. JTC is buying up more flats. But I think the pace needs to be hastened. (2) The Ministry needs to coordinate all the foreign worker housing-related matters and find ways to tighten the present guidelines and look into possible changes in legislation. Perhaps the Planning Act needs to be reviewed to restrict the number of foreign workers that can be housed in a single dwelling unit, and to look into things like fire prevention, fire safety and security concerns of neighbouring residents. Sir, perhaps there is a need for a multi-agency task force to be set up to resolve these pertinent problems that irritate many Singaporeans unnecessarily. On this number of foreign workers in a dwelling unit, I just want to end by saying, even the Geneva Convention has got restrictions on how big a prisoner cell should be. So I think we should not deteriorate below these guidelines.

(In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to urge the HDB to take some strict measures to prevent old air-conditioning units in high-rise buildings from becoming killers. Recently, it was reported in the newspaper that in Tampines Avenue 5, an old air-conditioner unit, weighing some 10 kg, dropped from the eighth storey of an HDB block to the ground floor. Fortunately, it did not hit any one. The incident happened because the weather-battered metal support for the window unit air-conditioner gave way and could not support the weight of the air-conditioner. According to the report, there were a total of three such incidents last year, two of them were at Nee Soon and one in Clementi. Fortunately, no one was injured by these falling air-conditioners from high-rise buildings. Sir, I understand that there are about 240,000 units of air-conditioners in these HDB estates and many of them are window- unit air-conditioners. So if there is no strict control and regular inspection on them, one day disaster may come from above and some people may be injured or even killed. If such an unfortunate incident is to happen, then I think it is cause for regret. I think this can be avoided and prevented. I believe that in the HDB estates, we are now getting more and more air-conditioners being installed. I think we should do something about it to prevent unfortunate incidents from happening. With all these air-conditioners, there are also a lot of other problems. One of them is the water dripping from the units. In many cases, the outflow pipes of air-conditioners were not connected to the bathrooms, as required by the HDB. In other words, the water will drip direct into the unit downstairs and cause a lot of unhappiness to the people below. Sometimes, the condensed water will drip on to the ground floor, resulting in moss to be gathered and inconvenience to the residents. I think HDB should look at this matter seriously and take more stringent measures against the culprits. There should be regular inspections on the air-conditioners in the HDB estates to ensure that the owners have their air-conditioners serviced regularly. Otherwise, they would be a potential danger to the residents.

Sir, with your permission, I cannot resist a quick response to Mr Sinnakaruppan. I do agree very wholeheartedly that foreign workers do deserve clean and decent housing because foreign workers are people too. But I wonder how far away from Singaporean housing should we place these houses? In small Singapore, I think maybe we might have to put them out in the kelongs. I think the point is that we need to balance the interest of foreign workers and our residents too, and I do support that point. Sir, with your permission too, I would like to deal with my three amendments together?

Yes.

First, I would like to highlight the difficulties faced by the average Singaporean household in respect of household services. The Consumers Association of Singapore has had occasion to blacklist plumbers, electricians and renovation contractors who have no qualms about earning excessive fees for their services, and low quality services, and earning such fees in unconscionable situations. The usual modus operandi of such scoundrels is to advertise in the classified advertisements of the newspapers promising services for what looks like reasonable charges. When they have finished their work, which may actually be simple work, they claim that their original fees have to be increased because of certain special work or equipment that they had used, without first seeking the consent of the householder. Some of them have even inflated their charges 300 times more than what they have advertised and used coercion to obtain payment, for example, by escorting the householders to the ATM machines to withdraw cash. Others have masqueraded as contractors engaged by HDB to do upgrading of their flats. They have preyed mainly on the elderly and the illiterate who are more easily awed by officialdom and threats of force. Another source of frustration for householders is generated by house removers. These unscrupulous persons advertised cheap rates for house removal also in the classifieds and would even promise householders whatever they ask for: covered lorries, free boxes; everything moved in one trip, etc. The householder then fixes a date for moving and gets all packed up. On the day of the move, the workers turn up late and refuse to work unless paid overtime, or claim that the items in the house are far too many to be moved in one trip, or turn up with lorries different from those promised. In the end, the householder has no choice but to pay up because there is no way he can find an alternative mover at such short notice and so late in the day. Sir, the list of tricks goes on and on. It is time we licensed such services. Presently, we have a rather complicated and yet incomplete system of licensing such services. Plumbers are licensed by ENV and PUB, depending on whether they are sanitary or non-sanitary plumbers; electricians are licensed by PUB; certain renovation companies are licensed by HDB, but not all; and house removers are not regulated by any agency. They are a law unto themselves. The woes they inflict on unsuspecting householders come about in the unfair way they conduct their businesses or in the poor quality of their services. Householders who have been taken for a ride, however, cannot find redress from the licensing agencies because the agencies do not appear to have powers to require the tradesmen to do their businesses in a fair way. The so-called licensing is really a register of people with such skills and licensing authorities are only concerned whether these people have the correct training or proper business addresses for service of notices. 2.15 pm Sir, this cannot be right. We are not a nation of robbers and highwaymen. Why do we permit such unconscionable conduct? Why do we have no laws or licensing requirements to root out such underhanded ways of ripping off our poor and uneducated, our law-abiding citizens who entrust their matters to companies which they mistakenly believe have been cleared and licensed by the authorities? Sir, to add to the litany of woes, there are all sorts of "real estate agents" also who earn 1% or 2% of the sale price of HDB flats and houses without doing a single thing for the householder. Fortunately, such agents have now got to attend classes before they are given licences to practise. And their certificates are issued by the IRAS. Sir, what we need is a single agency that members of the public can go to if they have been taken advantage of by crooks such as these, who will then get their licences revoked. The list of licence holders can be checked by householders who need such services. Advertisers who have no licences will not be allowed to advertise and the media companies should be required by law to check such credentials before allowing the businesses to advertise. In this way, fly-by-night operators will disappear overnight because they have no way to advertise their services. The one-stop agency is for the convenience of the public and to prevent confusion. It will also result in better control of such tradesmen and professionals. The unit can be called the Housing Services Licensing Unit and will exist to help trade associations to set trade, safety and training standards to instill professionalism. These standards can be formulated and applied by the respective trade associations which should have powers to penalise violators of their own ethical standards. This could include the power to recommend that recalcitrant tradesmen's licences be revoked. Sir, I move now to my last amendment. The Minister said yesterday that the Government is "still committed to upgrading private estates" but has postponed this in these austere times. So that means when good times return and HDB estates have been upgraded, it will be the turn of the private estates to be upgraded. Even before that time comes, there will be occasions where MPs would like to improve and maintain the environment of their residents in private estates and develop common facilities such as street furniture, footpaths and neighbourhood park facilities. In such a situation, it will be good to have an administrative infrastructure at the local level for MPs to improve the quality of life of their private estate voters. I submit that such an agency and infrastructure already exists in the shape of the town councils. They have the experience and expertise. They can be given more responsibilities, such as the provision of municipal services, such as cleaning and garbage disposal and the upgrading and maintenance of common facilities in such estates. The town councils will then be in charge of `real' towns and MPs will no longer be in the unenviable position of being accused of neglecting their private estate residents. Would the Minister please study this proposal?

Sir, feedback received from architects, engineers and developers indicate that although they are generally satisfied with Government regulation on the building and construction industry, they would like to see a central regulatory body to coordinate all approvals required, from fire safety to compliance with other buildings and control regulations. What I am proposing is basically a one-stop shop for architects, engineers and developers. It is also in line with quality service that the Government has been emphasising. I am not sure how this can be best organised and whether this central body should come under the purview of the Ministry of National Development or the Building Control Department. I would like to ask the Minister to comment on this suggestion.

Sir, can I have your permission to take the three cuts together?

Yes.

Thank you. The first subject is on Ministry of Construction. The construction industry has grown into a sizeable sector contributing 7% to 8% to our GDP. Despite its growth, the industry is faced with problems of low productivity, shortage of skilled labour, rising cost, poor image and a slow growth in the export of construction services. There is a lack of concerted effort to spearhead the construction industry. The above problems are attributed to the following: (1) Limited authority and resources of the Construction Industry Development Board (CIDB). In 1984, the CIDB was set up to spearhead, promote, develop and monitor the construction industry. Although CIDB has achieved moderate success, the construction industry is still experiencing the same problems. CIDB, being a statutory board under the Ministry, has limited authority and resource constraints. As a result, the construction industry is still unable to upgrade to better contribute to our economy. (2) Lack of one-stop approval centre for building approvals. The development of a building requires approvals from various Government departments, such as URA, BCD, ENV, PWD, and so on. The productivity and workload of these Government departments vary. Thus, approvals for projects may be delayed by one or two departments which are either having heavy workload or less productive. At present, Government officers are not accountable for the productivity of building projects. Thus, they may not be motivated to expedite the approval process. We need to provide a one-stop approval service for building projects and give incentives to Government officials who have made efforts to increase the productivity of projects. (3) Bad experiences in venturing overseas. A number of contractors have ventured overseas but many have lost lots of money. Some have wound up their businesses. While contractors do not expect the Government to provide any direct financial assistance, they hope the Government will provide support to reduce their risk exposure when venturing overseas. The recent initiative by TDB to include Singapore as a signatory in MIGA is indeed a positive step towards reducing political risks faced by firms venturing abroad. In addition, the Government should also provide incentives for banks and supporting industries to join venture with construction firms to form conglomerates which are capable of competing in the international market. I understand that many construction firms are well backed by private banks and construction-related firms when they tender for projects overseas. Sir, countries like Japan, China and Israel have Ministries of Construction to spearhead their construction industries. I am sure we can learn from these countries and develop a Ministry of Construction to spearhead our construction industry in the next millennium. Last year, I gave several suggestions to the Minister to upgrade the construction industry. I hope the Minister will update the House on the status of the upgrading of the industry. My next topic is on construction dispute resolution. Despite all the Government's initiatives and incentives, the productivity of the construction industry is still low. One of the main contributing factors to this phenomenon is the lack of teamwork and adversarial working culture among parties involved in a building project. Construction disputes are common at construction sites. These disputes often sour working relationships, thus resulting in delays in completion time and poor quality of work. In some cases, parties have to go into litigation to resolve their disputes, thus further increasing the cost of construction. If this situation is allowed to continue, the productivity of our construction industry will never be improved. We need to adopt a more cordial and cooperative approach to resolving disputes in the construction industry. I must commend the Ministry of Law for initiating mediation as a form of dispute resolution. With the support of the Ministry, the Singapore Mediation Centre (SMC) was set up in August 1997 to provide amicable and fair resolution of disputes. In addition, the SMC has formed an Advisory Committee on Construction Mediation comprising representatives from construction related professional bodies to promote mediation in the construction industry. Sir, I would like to declare my interest as a member of this Advisory Committee. To encourage mediation in the construction industry, I would urge the Ministry to consider the following suggestions: (1) Include a mediation clause in the public standard form of contract to refer all disputes to SMC for resolution. (2) Include a condition in the sale of land tender requiring private developers to insert a mediation clause in their contract when engaging construction firms. (3) Provide training grant for construction-related personnel to understand the use of mediation as a tool for dispute resolution. (4) Provide more support to SMC to run the centre. My last topic is landscape along roads and expressways. I agree with the National Parks' mission "To make Singapore our garden". But we need to adopt a more practical approach to maintaining greenery in Singapore. In land scarce Singapore, if we strictly adopt a "No removal of trees" policy, we will ultimately face serious maintenance problems in our landscape. Recently, there have been a number of accidents at the expressways involving water tankers that were carrying out maintenance works along these roads. As reported in The Straits Times on 27th January 1998, the LTA has made it mandatory for contractors to install shock-absorbing device to safeguard workers and motorists. Instead of solving the problem, the authority has actually placed a device on our expressway for cars to knock. This solution is indeed very disturbing and costs the contractor $40,000 to install such a device. This extra cost will result in higher construction and maintenance cost of our roads. I would like to urge the Ministry to review its policy of landscaping and growing trees along the central divider of roads and expressways. Landscaping along these dividers poses several problems: (1) It requires frequent maintenance, such as watering, fertilising and pruning. The maintenance trucks cause traffic congestion and pose safety hazards to other road users. (2) Mature trees tend to fall or have fallen branches during the monsoon season, thus endangering the lives of motorists. Whenever there is a heavy downpour, trees along roads are often reported to have fallen and injuring motorists or causing traffic congestion. (3) The leaves of trees and shrubs cause blockage of the drainage system along the central divider, thus resulting in water ponding in certain areas during rainy days. These water ponds have caused cars and motorcycles to skid resulting in accidents. (4) Workers who are maintaining the landscape along central dividers tend to be too engrossed in their work. Thus, they sometimes disregard their own safety. In view of the above problems, I hope the Ministry could review its policy to remove all landscape along the central dividers of our roads and expressways. In certain expressways, the central divider is wide enough to be converted into an emergency lane for ambulance or for diverting traffic during congestion. Furthermore, mature trees along roads should be tied back, if possible, to prevent them from falling onto our roads. The above measures would certainly improve the safety and traffic flow of our roads.

Mr Tay is not here. You can continue with deep sea fish farming.

Sir, my next topic is on deep sea fish farming. I must commend the Ministry for conducting the pilot study on deep sea fish farming recently. In resource scarce Singapore where most of our food supplies are imported, there is a constant need to search for alternative food sources. Deep sea fish farming provides an innovative way for Singapore to breed fish for local consumption. I hope the Government will provide more support to develop this industry as fish consumption is growing rapidly among Singaporeans. However, there are a number of concerns which I hope the Ministry will address and they are as follows: (1) Experiences in British Columbia and Canada have shown that salmon aquaculture farm have been the centre of controversy for many years. These farms have been blamed for environmental degradation and disruption to wild life in the ocean. The problems associated with open caged aquaculture include faecal pollution, release of dangerous pathogens into the marine environment and disruption in the spawning patterns of native salmon. Recently, I met a professor from Finland. He told me that the Ministry in Finland has recently asked all school children to boycott the purchase of salmon to protest against the uncontrollable pollution caused by private aquaculture farms. (2) Another report from Vancouver highlighted the spread of virulent disease by salmon fish farms. It attributed the spread of this disease to the netcage system which usually fills high densities of farm fish. The jammed and stressful conditions of these netcages become potential breeding grounds for disease epidemic. 2.30 pm While I am no expert in aquaculture, I hope my feedback would help the Ministry to ensure that deep-sea fish farming in Singapore is both safe and environmentally friendly.

Sir, I would like to ask the Minister to update this House on the intended corporatisation of the Public Works Department. There is some concern from the private sector that the PWD, after corporatisation, will compete for projects with the private sector. The PWD, given its size and technical expertise built up over many years, should focus on large infrastructure projects in Singapore. It should also regionalise to take advantage of its brand name and track record. It should also consider helping our local building and construction companies to go into the region. As Singapore is such a small nation with limited resources, we should be careful not to engage in wasteful competition, but leverage on one another's skills and competitive advantage to get ahead.

Sir, I propose to take the questions on rentals of HDB commercial premises and the redevelopment of HDB industrial estates. Let me try and explain the situation in the HDB commercial and industrial rentals. The situation, in fact, has changed significantly over the years. Since 1988-1989, we have sold the majority of HDB shops. Now, more than two-thirds of HDB shops have been sold. HDB does not rent out any more shops except for small neighbourhood complexes in the new towns. Mr Tay Beng Chuan pointed out that the rate of return on HDB's commercial property department has improved over the years. This is so because the more you get rid of the shops, the better your performance. The HDB shops are heavily subsidised. So, once you sell away two-thirds of the shops, your performance improves. When we sell away all the shops, the performance will be even greater. In November last year, we announced several measures to help the HDB shop tenants. As you know, in many HDB shops, the rents are far below market rents, and we have this programme of moving the rents up to market rents at the third renewal of their tenancies. In November last year, we announced further moderation of this adjustment. But we have to do so because it is very inequitable. In the same row of shops, you will have one shopowner who tendered for a HDB shop recently and he will be paying the market rent of $2,500 per month. Next to him, there will be somebody who has been resettled several years ago and even though his rent has been moving up by 30% every three years - he started from a very low base of $300 - now he is perhaps paying $600. So I think it is not fair to continue with this situation. And it is in our interest to move things to a more equal level playing field and adjust the rents. But we acknowledge that during this period of economic difficulties, we should moderate this increase, but we must adjust. Another feature is that with two-thirds of our shops sold, in fact, any shopkeeper who feels that HDB rentals are too high can easily rent a shop from the two-thirds who have already bought their shops. If we look at the classified advertisements in the Straits Times and the Chinese papers, we will find many advertisements of shops put out for rent by shopkeepers who have already bought their shops from the HDB. In fact, the market rent is now set by shopkeepers who own their shops and who are now renting or sub-letting their shops. So HDB does not set the market price. Two-thirds of the shops are now sold and this is the group that is now setting the market price. Furthermore, in the November announcement, we decided on a one-time exercise to adjust the rents downwards to the market rent. As you know, in HDB tenancies, we will keep the rents frozen for three years and then adjust it at the end of the 3-year tenancy. We could have kept the rent at current levels and then adjust the rent downwards at the end of the 3-year tenancy when the rent is due for renewal. By December, we decided on a one-time exercise to adjust all the rents down to the market rent, subject to a maximum of 10% drop. So, based on this announcement in November, as of today, 2,380 commercial tenants and 2,472 industrial tenants have benefitted from the rental concessions introduced in December 1997. Unlike what Mr Tay Beng Chuan has said, I think HDB has done more than its fair share to help the shop tenants ease over during this period. Again, I can reiterate what Dr Richard Hu said, if the situation worsens, he is prepared to consider other off-Budget measures to assist the SMEs even further. So I think you will not find a more sympathetic landlord than the HDB with regard to HDB shops and the industrial shops. Let me now turn to the redevelopment of HDB industrial estates. I agree with Dr Ker and Mr Lew Syn Pau that the HDB industrial estates are very old. Some of them were built more than 20 years ago and sorely need redevelopment or upgrading. HDB has about 10,600 industrial premises under its management. About 55% are single storey terrace workshops built in the 1970s. The remainder are high-rise industrial shops which are about 15 years old. The House has heard the various problems in the industrial estates. They were built with inadequate electrical loading to meet present needs. The parking situation is tight because SMEs now use low loaders. They use container trucks. The industrial estates were not designed for such heavy vehicle movement. Therefore, last year, HDB announced a major redevelopment programme for its industrial estates. The purpose of this redevelopment is two-fold: (1) to optimise the use of these sites to build it high-rise, greater intensity so as to optimise land use; and (2) to provide better facilities that will meet the operational requirements of the industrial tenants. This redevelopment is necessary and long overdue. I know many SME tenants will argue that during this difficult period, this will cause a disruption. But no time is a good time. When business is good, they will say, "Don't disturb me. I am rushing to fulfill my orders." When business is bad, they say, "Don't disturb me. I can't afford to be going to new premises." If we do not do anything, the premises do not meet their requirement and, over time, they will be less and less competitive. So I think we must press ahead with the HDB industrial redevelopment. What we will do is to incorporate certain features that will help ease them over to these new premises. First of all, for every trade, we set up a committee to understand the requirements of the individual trade. The food industry is different from the motor car workshops. It is different from the light electronics. So we have committees which will look into the needs of each trade, so that when we redesign and redevelop the industrial premises, they will meet the needs of each trade. Secondly, with this redevelopment, we will also provide the opportunity to rehouse the tenants from closely related trades within the same industrial complex for better synergy. The premises will be bigger. There will be higher ceiling heights, higher electrical loads and, therefore, better attuned to the modern needs of our SMEs. As far as possible, the replacement units built by HDB will be located within the same estate to minimise the loss of business goodwill and workers. For tenants who are affected by relocation, I take Mr Lew Syn Pau's point. We will give them ample notice to minimise disruption to their business operations. Industrial tenants affected by this relocation will be given an ex-gratia compensation of $48,000 per unit. They are also given an option to either purchase or rent the replacement units. Purchasing, of course, will free the tenants from uncertainty in rent review. HDB will try to keep the prices at affordable levels by selling them at a shorter lease period of 30 years. Singapore citizen tenants will be given a 5% discount of the market price. For industrial tenants who opt to rent the units, they will continue to pay the existing rental rates on a per square metre basis for the remaining term of their existing tenancies. They will also enjoy a two-month rent- free fitting up period. This rent-free fitting up period will be extended to six months for Singapore citizen tenants. With all these programmes in place, together with the assistance and the financial schemes offered by the Productivity and Standards Board for local SMEs, I am sure we can work closely together to make sure this redevelopment programme meet their needs and puts them on a more competitive footing. Let me turn to the next set of questions raised by Dr Toh See Kiat, Mr Lew Syn Pau and Dr Teo on licensing, central regulatory body and Ministry of Construction. My general comment to all these points is that there is a standing joke in the civil service that whenever you get a Minister or a new Permanent Secretary, to create a sense of change, you centralise if the previous administration had decentralised. And you decentralise if the previous administration had centralised. So there is this fad of moving in the spectrum. This also happens in the private sector. You have conglomerates. Then, in recent years, everybody has downsized, core competence, sub-contract. Now, you are back to mergers and acquisitions. Sir, I do not intend to go into the merits or demerits of centralisation or decentralisation. I just want to make the point that we have arrived at where we are. We do not have a one-stop service for all the building regulations, first, because it is not practical. You have a super-mega Ministry. I have no interest in heading such a Ministry. It is impractical because the regulatory expertise lies in different Ministries and in different professionals. So it is not possible to put them all together. What we try to do, of course, is to use IT to overcome some of these problems. With the setting up of CoreNet and other IT applications, you are virtually dealing with a one-stop service, without physically and administratively putting everybody in one Ministry. I take Dr Teo's point about the merits of a Ministry of Construction. Again, personally, I do not see the need. We have CIDB to spearhead the requirements of the construction sector. I share the same frustration with Dr Teo in that the construction sector is not improving in productivity as much as we would like to, but we have different groups of people tackling this issue together with the Singapore Contractors' Association. I will be very happy to enlist the help of Dr Teo in many of these committees, so that he can apply his talents into some of these issues. 2.45 pm As for licensing of household services, basically the Government licenses or regulates only if there is a safety issue involved. For example, Mr Goh Choon Kang very eloquently talked about the dangers posed by old air-conditioner units. I share his view, and in this type of situation you will see the HDB getting more involved in the act. But it is not possible to license good service. How do Singaporeans choose the motor-repair workshop? You do not license it, you let the Motor Repair Association self-regulate. How do Singaporeans choose their own hair-dressers? You do not regulate. Service levels cannot be regulated. So I sympathize entirely with Dr Toh See Kiat. All I can say is CASE is doing great work. Anytime Singaporeans face such problems they are encouraged to go to CASE. In cases where they masquerade as HDB contractors, we will go after them. In cases like, for example, the real estate agents, we will take steps to educate them. HDB in fact runs afternoon seminars, both in English and Mandarin, so that you need not go to a real estate agent to sell your flat or to buy a resale flat. Attend these seminars, free of charge, or you pay a small fee. HDB will take you through how to transact a resale flat and you are on your own. So similarly for all the other household services. Perhaps one suggestion that Dr Toh can take is to have term contractors within your town councils and advertise these term contractors as reliable contractors for your residents. That is one practical solution you can take to help your residents. On the expansion of the jurisdiction of town councils, I am also very reluctant to do so. If Dr Toh can solicit the support of more Members of this House, I would then consider it. I do not think it is a good idea to take over looking after the common property of private housing estates. They are very well taken care of through their own management corporation. I do not see why you want the town councils to do extra work. If we do implement the upgrading of the common areas in the private housing estates, we will find a mechanism by which there will be a Government agency to help the MP or the Advisor to the grassroots organizations to implement the programme. But it need not necessarily be undertaken by the town councils. So off-hand, I would not support the expansion of the jurisdiction of town councils until I get more favourable support from other Members because this will affect every Member in this House. I will ask Mr Koo Tsai Kee to take the other questions. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development (Mr Koo Tsai Kee): Sir, I refer to the question by Prof Chin Tet Yung. First, the Minister and I share the plight of some of these divorcees, the problems that have been raised by the Member. But I think we have got to re-focus back on basics. What is the mission of HDB? What is their prime objective? Their prime objective is to provide subsidized public housing for all Singaporeans who qualify, but in particular, with special emphasis for first-timers. So to the extent that HDB has provided HDB flats to the couple before they divorced, or even after they had divorced, you find that HDB has done its primary job. If HDB were to waive the 10-year embargo for divorcees, we risk slipping into what economists call "moral hazard", which is the story for the last 6 months since the crisis in Thailand broke out. The problem the Member has raised is real and the Ministry will look into it. But the problem is not as serious as he has raised because the divorced couple has an HDB flat. If they had lived in it for 5 years they can sell it on the resale market. The proceeds can be used to rent an apartment or a flat. If the divorced couple are very poor, in the case cited by Prof Chin - if the wife especially earns below $800 - we can look at the case sympathetically and HDB is prepared, on a case by case basis, to waive the 30-month debarment. When you sell your flat you have got to wait for 30 months to apply for a rental flat. If he or she is very poor, then we are prepared to look into this 30-month debarment, provided the divorcee satisfies all other rental conditions. So I hope the Member is satisfied with the answer. If he knows of any specially deserving cases, he is welcome to write to me and we will look at it specially. On the issue raised by Dr Teo Ho Pin on HDB car parks, I have asked my officers to give me a report. He tells me that there are adequate car park lots provided in semi-mature HDB estates, especially those since mid-1980s when the norms were fairly generous. In Bukit Panjang, where he is the MP, for instance, the overall season parking rate is only about 60%. So there is no real serious problem in Bukit Panjang. However, there could be local problems. The problem is that some of his residents may be reluctant to go to a car park which is slightly further away, say 100-150 metres. That is why HDB has this grouping system where we group a few car parks together and encourage residents within the zone to share these car park spaces. Just for Dr Teo's information, there are 34 HDB car parks comprising 11,866 lots in Bukit Panjang estate. But the only car park with localized shortage is car park group G20. I am not sure if he is referring to that, but that is the only localized shortage in the area. About 5-6% of the residents are unable to purchase a season parking ticket for this car park group. HDB will look into this special problem and will come up with some solutions and will inform the MP in due time. On the issue raised by Mr Ong Ah Heng on ceiling leak and spalling concrete, first let me distinguish between the two. Spalling concrete is considered a surface maintenance defect. There is no cost sharing between the upper and lower floor lessees for spalling concrete within the flats as it is the lessee's responsibility to repair them. But I think Mr Ong was referring to the ceiling leakage problem, particularly in toilets. Under the lease, as he rightly pointed out, the parties sharing the use of a party-structure are jointly responsible for its maintenance. Hence the affected upper and lower lessees are required to engage their own contractor to rectify the leaking problem and share the cost of repair works. Mr Ong is not disputing that this should be the case. He is asking for faster remedial action on the part of HDB and I think he is appealing to HDB to apply some kind of pressure on the tenants, the upper floor and lower tenants, to settle the problem. HDB on its part will assist lessees to diagnose and determine the cause of the leakage and will recommend appropriate remedial action. As to the time lead, I will ask HDB to look into the problem and see whether they can shorten it. But the problem is really not HDB. The problem is really the tenants, both on the upper floor and lower floor. I think they should take joint responsibility. They should realise that when they inhabit the flats there are certain ownership responsibilities and this is one of them. But the problem is not very serious. In 1997, only about 1% out of 11,000 ceiling leakage cases has such difficulties. If the leakage is really very bad and affects the structural integrity of the building, then HDB will take immediate legal action to enter the premises to carry out the repair and recover the cost from the lessees. This action will, as the MP will appreciate, only be carried out as a last resort because this is a very drastic action and we respect the rights of the owners. Indeed this is practised widely in the condominiums where the MC will refrain from interfering in the problem of the upper and lower floor neighbours. They will only go in when the problem becomes acute. On Transitional Rental Housing Scheme (TRHS), my friend and MP, Mr Sinnakaruppan, has brought out this problem. TRHS exercises are conducted quarterly, every three months. First-timer applicants who have been on the Registration of Flats System (RFS) for at least three months are eligible to apply for TRHS flats. I have been told that if you applied for a flat before July last year then you qualify to go into the TRHS exercise in January in the next quarter. Applicants who are not shortlisted are nonetheless placed on the reserve list and if there are rejected flats then we will ask the people on the reserve list to select one of these rejected flats. The Member asked how fast people who have been invited to select TRHS flat can get the flats. In fact, if the applicants are not choosy, they can get it very quickly because over the last year, HDB has increased both the supply and moderated the demand. He mentioned some of the supply modifications HDB has made. HDB has bought more 3-room flats from the open market for TRHS applicants. We have offered 1- and 2-room flats for selection, in addition to 3-room flats. But very importantly, we have also opened a category called "Flat Sharing". I hope the Member is aware of that. If somebody comes to your MPS and says he needs a flat very urgently because his wife is pregnant or his mother-in-law is having problems with him, then we tell him that there is a group of flats called the "Flat Sharing Scheme", where if he is willing to share a flat with somebody else and pay half the rental and share half the responsibility, he can get the flat almost immediately. In fact, I can say immediately, because the drop-out rate is very high. For example, in the January TRHS exercise, we offered 600 flats - 500 flats for non-sharing and 100 flats for sharing. We invited 1,233 applicants to select these flats. Out of the 500 applicants selected to pick the TRHS flats, we find that 196 rejected the flat. In other words, I offer you a flat, I say "If you want, there you are." You say "I don't want because I want a better area or I want a better height." So it is not on. Even for this group of flats, with assured allocation, the fall-out rate is very high, almost 20%. For the 100 flats for sharing purpose, eight took up the offer. So 92 flats went a-begging. For people who really want a flat urgently for whatever reasons, my answer to the MP is, if they are not choosy about location, if they are not choosy, if they not too picky about privacy, they can get it immediately. I go to the problem raised by Mr Chay Wai Chuen. I think he is quite right. As a rule, URA does not approve any independent retail space in industrial or warehouse development for retail purposes for the reasons pointed out by him. However, showrooms are allowed within the 40% floor area which can be used for ancillary purposes like office and cafeteria. Showrooms are restricted only to the first storey level of industrial or warehouse developments fronting major roads. URA will continue to take enforcement action on unauthorized use of industrial or warehouse space for independent retail activities. There are a few in town. We will look at them and regularise them. Dr Teo raised the issue of cost reduction for public projects. First of all, I would like to thank him for giving us very good ideas. On design-and-build tenders, he suggests that all Government departments should follow HDB's practice. I want to thank him for complimenting HDB. This problem has also been highlighted in the Ministry's dialogue with the Singapore Contractors Association Limited. They have raised the problem that it is very expensive for contractors to go for design-and-build projects one after another if they fail in a few of them. So we will look into how we can minimise the cost for contractors, because we want to encourage contractors to go for design-and-build. This is what Singaporeans want. They are prepared to pay a premium for design-and-build flats. 3.00 pm He also suggested that all Government departments should adopt HDB's approach in purchasing basic building materials in bulk for contractors working in their projects. This is going to be very difficult. I think it is not possible for all Government departments because none of them have the kind of volume of building programme, like the HDB's. Certainly not, for example, Ministry of Labour; certainly not Ministry of Education. They build schools but they are not building in the volume that HDB is building flats. The problem of Clerks-of-Works and Professional Engineers (PEs) has also been highlighted by SCAL. The Ministry is looking into how we can ameliorate the problem. But, essentially, the problem must be solved by the contractors and the developers. It is a developer and contractor's problem. Some Clerks-of-Works are demanding, for example, concreting at night, thereby jacking up the cost for contractors and creating noise for residents. The contractors are very welcome to file a complaint to BCD, CIDB or to the Ministry officials, and we will look at it. But I understand that SCAL is reluctant to finger Clerks-of-Works who are corrupt in their mind and we have asked SCAL that they must regularise. We can only help them, but they must take action on their part. But, nonetheless, I want to assure the MPs that the Ministry is looking into this problem. On standardisation and modernisation, the Member encouraged public projects to adopt pre-fab components, pre-cast components, in order to speed up the construction process and to save construction cost. This is being done extensively by HDB. HDB has a pre-fab technology centre. I think the MP has visited it. For public projects, there is no problem in encouraging contractors to use standardised components. The problem really lies in the private sector. This is because most Singaporeans think that pre-fab buildings are not so aesthetically beautiful. They prefer specially designed, one-off buildings. Nonetheless, the Ministry is aware that the productivity in the construction sector is rather low and we think that one way to go about it is to encourage more pre-fab components. Perhaps in the near future, we will think of legislating buildable designs. On project financing, the MP made a few suggestions. He said that Government should give initial payment, then, timely progress payments, and then early settlement of final cost. Initial payment is not possible. The Government can only pay when something is being done, because we are dealing with public money. We cannot pay the contract when no work is being done. I notice sometimes it happens in the private sector. But we are dealing with public funds, so initial payment is not possible. Timely progress payments, this is always done. HDB and PWD always make timely progress payments. In fact, because HDB, PWD and all the Government bodies are such good pay masters we are seeing a flood of contracts recently. Early settlement of final accounts, this is always done. We always pay promptly. Our problem is that we have to chase contractors to finish their jobs early, not that we are delaying their payments. MPs suggested providing housing for foreign workers. This is also a point raised by Mr Sinnakaruppan. This point has also been raised by SCAL. So we are looking into how we can help contractors house foreign workers. One possible way may be to allocate land to SCAL to build dormitory housing, but this is in a very initial stage, and I would let the MPs know more of the details later on. On disposal of construction wastes, the MP suggested employing term contractors to clear all the debris caused by construction in zones. Maybe in the western zone, you have two term contractors; the northern zone you have three term contractors. So these contractors will be responsible for clearing all the debris generated by all the construction within the zone. I think this is not very easy to implement. But, nonetheless, I will ask the officials to look at it. Basically we do not know the volume of work in a particular sector of Singapore, because some of this information are time-sensitive. So how do we call for contracts? How do term contractors price their services? Because they do not know the volume of work that is coming down, and you cannot tell them that certain activities will be started in one year or two years' time. These are price-sensitive information. Mr Sinnakaruppan made a strong pitch for Government to regulate the use of private residential properties as boarding houses. For the whole of 1997, URA received 979 cases of unauthorised use of residential premises as workers' quarters. While I concede that this may be a low number, but if Members know of any abuse of residential units as boarding houses, please let us know. URA has taken enforcement action and cleared 895, or 91%, of the cases we know. The remaining cases are still under active enforcement. As to the specific areas he mentioned (Cambridge Road, Sing Avenue, Joo Avenue, Carlisle Road), URA is particularly active because the MP has been particularly active in complaining, and that is good for him. The URA has sent 26 warning letters to the persons responsible to cease the use. I think they have ceased. Six cases have complied, and enforcement notices will be served on the rest. How do we solve the foreign worker problem? This is something that everybody must put their mind to, but, in particular, the people who employ foreign workers. It is not the Government's job to employ foreign workers. It is Government's job to house Singaporeans, and already we have a headache. I think we cannot be encumbered with trying to solve housing for foreign workers. But it is a problem. So HDB is assisting in whatever way it can. But it is not HDB's problem. HDB is extending its goodwill and trying to solve a problem that has infected the whole of Singapore, because we have too many foreign workers, and Members are complaining that the foreigner workers levy is too heavy. One way to solve the problem is to allocate land for dormitory housing. The MP has alluded to that. JTC will also be able to buy HDB flats to rent out to foreign workers. MPs raised a point that the Planning Act does not specify the number of persons that can live in a house. That is correct. Because these are private houses and some of them have large families (3-generation or 4-generation families). So we cannot take a particular number. But some numbers are obviously irregular. For example, if a house has 100 workers, of course, it is used as a boarding house. If a house has 30 workers, I think, then straightaway, we will know that that house is likely to be used as a boarding house. So although there is no number, the magnitude of the number, a reasonable number, is a suggestion that a particular house is used as a boarding house. So if the number is, say, 10 to 15, please let us know.

30 to 40.

Definitely it is used as a boarding house. While we have no numbers for a private home owner on how many people he can rent out to, we have some numbers for HDB flats. For example, JTC flats which are used to rent out to workers, it says that for 3-room flats, we do not allow more than 10 workers in a 3-room flat; in a 4-room flat, we do not allow more than12 workers. For the dormitory housing scheme, we have certain norms. In a 1-room, maximum six occupiers; 2 rooms, maximum eight occupiers; 3-room, 10 occupiers; 4 and 5 rooms, maximum 12 occupiers. But I urge the Member to be a bit tolerant about the foreign worker housing situation. Because these workers are here to contribute to Singapore's economy and they are not like what the MP said, prisoners housed in worse conditions in prisons. On old air-conditioning units in high-rise buildings, Mr Goh Choon Kang has pointed out the problem. Currently, HDB flat owners must obtain HDB's approval before they can install air-conditioners. If the air-conditioner has been mounted on the exterior of the flat, flat owners are required, under the Building Control Act, to engage a CIDB trained installer. This was done last year. So we are moving one step towards regulating the installation of air-conditioners. And over the years, HDB has also taken measures to further secure the installation of air-conditioners. Since 1990, all the supporting brackets for new installation of air-conditioners are to be made of stainless steel which is more resistant to corrosion than the former mild steel brackets. In 1992, HDB introduced the service balcony for flat owners to place the condensers of split air-conditioned units. In 1995, HDB designed the recess laundry area where a ledge with railing is provided for flat owners to place their condensers. The provision of such a ledge further prevents air-conditioners from falling. So these are various measures that are in place. However, all these will come to naught if the flat owners do not take ownership and responsibility for the air-conditioners. Ultimately, it is the flat owner's responsibility to check and ensure that the air-conditioners and the supporting structures are in good condition. In 1994, HDB sent out letters to remind flat owners that they are responsible for checking on the air-conditioners and to maintain them in good condition at all times. So HDB has done its job. We have reminded the owners. Very often, the owners ignore. In addition, HDB has advised flat owners how to go about maintaining their air-conditioners. And HDB will continue to advise flat owners to take immediate action if they spot any air-conditioners that are not properly maintained during the inspection round. Arising from the incident highlighted by the Member, the Building Control Division of PWD will look into the possibility of legislating the requirement for window air-conditioning units installed in high-rise buildings. I now turn to Dr Teo Ho Pin's comments on construction dispute resolution. I want to thank him for the many ideas that he has given us. I want to say that the Government supports the Member's suggestion and will encourage the use of the mediation process to settle construction-related disputes, because the process is less costly, not adversarial, and takes less time than arbitration. Moreover, the cordial relationship between the two parties is also retained, so that the construction work can progress quickly to completion. Hence, the CIDB, together with HDB and PWD, is currently finalising the mediation clause to be included into public sector conditions of contract. But Dr Teo wants us to go one step further. He wants us to put this clause in all Government land sales. I think this is not possible. We do not want to encumber the prospective buyer with more and more clauses. If the developer is enlightened, he will encourage mediation and he will look for a contractor who is pro-mediation. So I think putting the clause in land sale is unwise. Nonetheless, CIDB will work with REDAS and the Singapore Institute of Architects to have similar clauses for private sector construction projects. He raised several points in his speech. He wants grants for construction- related personnel to understand the use of mediation. I ask him to lobby the Minister for Finance and the Minster for Trade and Industry. He hopes to have more support for the SMC. CIDB will work closely with SMC. Dr Teo went on to the next topic - landscaping along roads and expressways. I think, first, we must settle a very important issue here. The National Parks Board does not want the central dividers there. The central dividers are there for a very important reason, and that reason is safety. The primary purpose of central dividers along expressways and other major multi-lane roads is to separate opposing streams of traffic. They travel at high speeds. So if there is a head-on collision, it will be a serious accident. The provision of the central dividers is necessary to prevent head-on collision and reckless overtaking. This will ensure the safety of drivers. Since the central dividers are there, we might as well make good use of them. And that is where the National Parks came in. The National Parks Board came in to green up the central dividers for the pleasure of all Singaporeans. Singapore has earned the reputation as being a Garden City mostly because of its kerb side greenery. So you will find that the idea to remove plants, flowers and trees along the central divider will not go down well with most Singaporeans. The tree planting along the central dividers softens the harshness of the concrete jungle that we live in. I am sure that many members of the public who drive along the ECP and AYE will enjoy the cool comfort provided by the trees. But, of course, the National Parks is aware of the points raised by Dr Teo and they are very mindful of the safety aspects in maintaining the greenery along major roads and expressways. 3.15 pm In this respect, National Parks has worked very closely with LTA. It is not just a problem of National Parks. It is also a problem of LTA. We are working on roads and the National Parks is taking the prescribed measures of public safety. The National Parks will continue to enhance the safety measures where possible and viable. Dr Teo raised the point that the fitting of a truck mounted attenuator (TMA) actually encourages vehicles to crash on to it. This is an exaggeration, to put it mildly. The fitting of TMA will not eradicate the hazard but it does minimise the loss of lives when the time comes, hopefully, never. National Parks has strict criteria on when to water the plants along the central divider and how to water them. For stationary vehicles, National Parks staff and contractors are required to comply with a whole set of provisions, for example, they have to place cones and make sure that the yellow arrows are lighted. It is necessary for the watering vehicles to be mobile to water the central divider plants and we do so during non-peak hours. So it is unlikely that such watering routine will cause traffic jams. Dr Teo seems to forget that accidents can be caused by both parties. So it is also pertinent to remind all of us that when we travel on the highways, we should be on the look out for stationary vehicles, especially those with cones behind them and big yellow arrows flashing about. We should also adhere to the safe speed limit. If these conditions are observed by all of us, I think there should be very, very few accidents involving National Parks watering trucks. On deep sea fishing, I think Dr Teo might have scared all the Teochews about eating fish, and I remind the House that there are many Teochews in the Cabinet. Here, I would like to reassure the House that the fears are unfounded. So you can carry on eating fish. Our deep netcage fish farms are designed based on the Norwegians' 20 years' experience. He mentioned about the Canadian experience. Fortunately, we do not model after the Canadian. We knew the problem. So we went to Norway and also Greece. In fact, the Norwegian fish farming technique is so advanced. They have leapfrogged from a minor salmon breeder to a major salmon exporter. In fact, most of the salmons you find in Singapore, in NTUC Fairprice, come from Norway. And I am sure that you will enjoy the taste. There is no problem. The experience of British Columbia in Canada is therefore not relevant to us and I will explain why later on. In Singapore, our deep sea netcages are sited off St John's Island in deep open waters. The waste built up within the cage can be readily dispersed in the open sea by the currents. The water depth in the area where we put the deep sea netcage exceeds 10 metres and the currents there exceed 1 knot. The netcages are spaced out quite evenly apart to prevent overcrowding. The British Columbian problem came about because they put the aquaculture netcages along the migratory path of the salmon, especially in the mouth of the rivers where the salmons return to spawn annually. So that is the reason, because you disrupted their mating habits and their migratory patterns. And I have been told that although the British Columbian problem may be real, in the Scandinavian countries, they have no such problems. Intensive farming, whether it is fish stock, chickens or pigs, comes with a higher risk of diseases. However, with good veterinarians in the PPD, good disease control techniques, good management and good vaccines, I think the problem can be minimised, if not eradicated altogether. On corporatisation of PWD, the last topic raised in the series of cuts by Mr Lew Syn Pau, PWD Corporation is likely to be corporatised or privatised next year. And I want to assure the Member that his suggestion will be taken up, namely, that PWD Corporation will cooperate with private sector architectural companies, engineering companies and quantity surveyor companies. Of course, PWD Corporation must also compete with them and provide a benchmark for an integrated engineering and architectural services to take on regional infrastructural projects. Why corporatise? Because the corporatisation of PWD will allow a leaner and trimmer Government to concentrate on delivering essential public services, such as regulatory and planning functions. So we will keep the regulatory arm of PWD which is the BCD. We believe that the PWD Corporation will be able to set new standards of engineering and architectural excellence in Singapore after corporatisation.

Sir, a point of clarification. Mr Lim said in his reply that the management corporation's work should not be taken over. I do agree. But in my examples, they were all public facilities. Management corporations deal with private facilities. If the Minister is agreeable that upgrading will be done, my question is: why not town councils? I do not expect to persuade the Minister immediately. But I think some thought should be planted. I would also thank the Minister for praising the good work CASE has done on a peanut budget. Now that he has passed the buck back to CASE, perhaps, he would like to move a few hundred thousand bucks our way too.

Sir, just a few points of clarification. One, I am surprised that the Parliamentary Secretary has got the figure from his officer about the 60% season parking in Bukit Panjang. They must have included a lot of new multi-storey car parks where the residents have not moved in. Because three months ago, I went there and noticed that about 90% of the car parks were all taken up. But the Parliamentary Secretary has not answered my suggestions concerning the equalisation of car park fees and converting the unused land space to car parks. The other point is on bulk materials. What I mean is that HDB is doing a good job. But can the other Ministries also tap on HDB's bulk purchase of materials, that is, MOE can buy concrete or sand from HDB? So the contractors can reduce the cost. The next point is about the central dividers. I know there is a need for a central divider. What I am trying to say is that you may not need to landscape the central divider heavily. You do not need to maintain those trees. The last point is on deep sea fishing. I know the method used in Singapore is different. But if you put 30,000 fishes in one cage, it does not matter whether the current is strong or not, because the faeces are still polluting the sea. The current is not important at all because it will still pollute St. John's Island.

Sir, I thank the Member for giving me a chance to clarify some of the points which I forgot to clarify. He asked whether unused land space in semi-mature estates can be converted to car park spaces. I think it is not fair to convert empty land spaces in semi-mature estates to car parks unless we can establish that there is a real shortage of car parks in the grouping system. The reason is that most people in the semi-mature estates do not own cars. So they enjoy the greenery, the space and the comfort of the openness. If you block their visual comfort, they will come to you and me and say, "You block my fong shui. You block my geomancy." There are cases like that which have come to me. So my immediate reaction is that we have got to be very careful about taking away open space and putting a concrete block there unless there is a real need. Whether we need to plant so many different kind of plants along central dividers, I do not think we crowd the central dividers with too many hybrids of plants. For a very simple reason, if you over plant, you will find that the plants will not flourish. We want to plant the optimum number so that you will get the most beautiful bloom. I do not think there is over planting. On the question of bulk purchase and whether contractors for MINDEF or MOL projects can tap into HDB's supplier of sand and granite, I have got to ask HDB whether they have spare capacity or not. My understanding is that HDB has a very tight schedule in completing all the HDB flats for so many people. Right now, we have something like 130,000 people on the waiting list. So I think HDB's first priority is to build the flats for people in the queue. Contractors working on MOL projects or MINDEF projects are usually working on smaller projects like building an army camp or a small building. So they can take care of the construction materials themselves. As HDB is dealing with something like 30,000 flats a year, its first priority must be to protect the construction materials for its core contractors. On deep sea fishing, so far, we have not detected any diseases in the fish that are growing off St John's Island. In fact, during the last visit of the GPC, we heartily tucked into some of these (jin mu lu) fish or what the Australians call barracuda. Dr Teo and I are still healthy. I think the problem is not so serious. It is not real. I do not think it is a problem here.

Sir, I thank the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary for their replies and I would like to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Order. I propose to take the break now. Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Order. I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at 3.55 pm. Sitting accordingly suspended at 3.28 pm until 3.55 pm. Sitting resumed at 3.55 pm

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

Head U (cont.) -

Amendment No. (2), Mr Choo Wee Khiang.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head U of the Main Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code UA 1500. (In Mandarin): Sir, Singapore is a small country with a lot of people and very little land. Property being a scarce commodity tends to be very expensive. However, because of the recent regional financial turmoil, property prices in Singapore have dropped. Even then, the prices are still very much on the high side to the people in general. This is the representative view of the majority of Singaporeans. To the ordinary citizens of Singapore, owning a piece of property is one of the most important things in life. Yet, when one wants to buy or sell a property, he will have to turn to the housing agencies for help, as property transactions are too complicated a matter to be handled by the laymen themselves. Whether the housing agency is good or bad makes a lot of difference to the buyers and sellers. In my meet-the-people sessions, I have come across complaints against bad housing agencies who gave a lot of troubles to their clients, causing them not only lots of inconvenience but also monetary losses. Therefore, I urge the Government to provide some form of assistance and protection to the general population in their property transactions. We should consider how to organise all the housing agencies and put them together in a professional body or association, the objective of which shall be to regulate and coordinate the activities of its professional members, so that they would conduct their business with professionalism, discipline and efficiency. This will be of great benefit to our people. I hope that the Ministry of National Development can play a greater role in this regard. As it is, presently all housing agents have to pass the CEHA conducted by the tax authorities. Only on passing the said examination can they apply for a licence to practise as housing agents. They can then register with the HDB as authorised housing agents to deal in transactions of HDB flats. They enjoy certain advantages and priorities. Through them, the transactions can be expedited and completed within 4 weeks. 4.00 pm I feel that this is only one part of the story, ie, an examination conducted by the tax authority. What is more important is the professionalism in the housing agents. I hope that HDB or MND can help the housing agents to form a professional body or association. In my meet-the-people sessions, I have some residents coming to me about the inability of single persons above the age of 35 who were denied the right to buy some 3-room flats in my ward. I feel that we should consider relaxing this restriction on single persons who wish to buy HDB flats. For example, in Whampoa, which is an old housing estate, there are a lot of senior citizens. Many of them are hoping that their children could come and stay with them. But these children who are 35 years of age and above want to be independent and they do not want to stay in the same flat with their parents, but at the same time, they want to be near to look after their parents. So the best way out is to buy a 3-room flat close to their parents' flat so that they can also look after the old folks. Unfortunately, because of the existing regulations, a single person would not be allowed to buy a 3-room flat in the city area and this has caused a lot of inconvenience. In other words they would not be staying near to their aged parents to look after them. If they are working in the city, and you want them to buy a flat in the suburban area, they will have to spend a lot of time travelling to-and-fro. It is too troublesome and inconvenient. I have also come across a case where a resident wanted to sell back the 3-room flat to HDB in order to buy a bigger flat. However, HDB was rather reluctant to buy back the 3-room flat. As a result, he had trouble getting the 4-room or 5-room flat he wanted for his family which had expanded. So if we can allow single persons aged 35 and above to buy 3-room flats, then it will take a load off the back of the other resident who wanted to sell off his 3-room flat to upgrade to a bigger flat. This is a win-win situation for both. I really want to appeal to the Minister to consider allowing singles, aged 35 and above, to buy flats in the city area.

Sir, the Member raised the issue last year. Perhaps I can give him an update on the situation today. Today, there are 501 housing agencies in the scheme. We started with 27. These agencies are handling almost half of all resale transactions. When the scheme was implemented in December 1995, its aim was to encourage housing agencies to conduct resale transactions in a professional and honest manner. The minimum criteria set for admission was that at least 50% of the agency's housing agents must possess the relevant qualifications recognised by the IRAS. In July 1997 the scheme was tightened because of feedback from MPs like Mr Choo who said that many agents are unqualified. They misrepresent the buyers or the sellers. They are unclear about HDB policies resulting in misery to both buyers and sellers. Thus we tightened the scheme. But for those agencies which had already been admitted before July 1997 we give them a grace period until June this year to get all their agents qualified. The qualification is to pass an examination set by IRAS, and we call it the Common Examination for Housing Agents. In fact, the qualification to sit for this examination is rather low actually. It requires 3 GCE "O" levels to sit for this examination. I have made enquiries. The pass rate so far is rather dismal. Only 20-30% of candidates passed at their first attempt. But of course those who fail can re-sit the examination whenever IRAS sets the next examination. The second attempt pass rate is much higher and more satisfactory, at 60%. The Member has alluded to the fact that HDB flats represent the most important asset for almost all Singaporeans and therefore only qualified agents should be allowed to transact HDB flats. I fully agree with the Member. Unfortunately, the Auctioneers Act is not under the Ministry of National Development. It is under the Ministry of Finance. Recently, the Singapore Institute of Surveyors and Valuers also lobbied me to have some kind of regulation over real estate agents. I have passed the note to the Minister for Finance and I am sure his officials would be looking into it. The Act that governs the activity of housing agents is rather old actually, a rather old piece of legislation, dating back to 1962. Perhaps some modifications can be made, but that is up to the Ministry of Finance to decide. But HDB monitors the performance of the Licensed Housing Agents Scheme's agents closely. So far, after this new scheme has been in place, the standard of services provided by the LHAS agencies are generally better because now they have to sit for an examination, they are more qualified and they know HDB rules much better. Nonetheless, HDB will tighten the scheme and, with feedback from MPs like Mr Choo, we hope to close many of the loopholes. The third part of his question was whether HDB will relax the present rule which prevents singles over 35 from buying HDB resale flat in the central area, like my area in Tiong Bahru and his area in Whampoa. Under the present ruling, as the MP has pointed out, a single is not qualified to buy. HDB will look at this issue again to see whether there is a need to relax. But, in the meantime, if he feels very strongly about this case or any case that is deserving, HDB is willing to look at it on a case-by-case basis and give a waiver. So this is an exception. I hope the Member is satisfied with the answer.

I beg to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. (3), Prof Low.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head U of the Main Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code UF 1500.

Sir, the topic I like to talk about is Bird Flu and Bird-related Diseases. Before I start, I would like to declare my interest. I am the Advisor to two related organisations. One is the Poultry and Livestock Farmers Association and the other is the Poultry Importers and Exporters Association. Sir, the recent outbreak of the bird flu - the technical name is "Avian Influenza" - has caused 6 lives in Hong Kong. The authority there took a very serious view of the matter and destroyed about 1.5 million chickens in order to eliminate the source of the flu virus. According to reports, there are different versions of the reports, the flu virus is transmitted through people-to-bird contact and not from people-to-people contact. It is therefore important to note that so long as there are birds carrying the flu virus and there is contact with the bird by the people, either in the farm, house, pet shop, or even at home in the garden when birds frequent, people could catch the flu. Sir, every day we import hundreds of thousands of chicken and ducks for our Singapore slaughter house. Besides the migrant birds from different countries, there are also about tens of thousands of birds shuttling between Singapore and Malaysia daily. Sir, under these conditions, I would like to ask the Minister, in what way we could be free from the possible attack of the bird flu. If, unfortunately, there should be an outbreak of the bird flu, what would be the plan to contain the flu? Sir, in Hong Kong, 1.5 million birds were destroyed. It caused hardship to the chicken farmers and the traders. The Hong Kong authority compensated them financially to cushion them through the difficult period but their action was taken in the public interest. Sir, I would like to ask the Minister whether the Government will consider paying compensation if part or the whole chicken farm or the whole import of live chicks or birds has to be destroyed in order to contain the spread of certain diseases like, for example, bird flu and the Salmonella enteritidis disease.

As said by Prof. Low just now, the recent outbreak of avian flu in Hong Kong was tragic, with consequences more lethal than before. I gather for the first time that avian flu had affected human beings. In May last year, the first human was affected in Hong Kong and since then there were 18 confirmed cases with 6 deaths reported. I am sure, Sir, many Singaporeans were anxious then whether the same could have happened in Singapore. We all know of course that Singapore's Primary Production Department is very well known for its strict import and control system, and that must have given many Singaporeans comfort. But, nevertheless, certainly there must have been lessons that could have been drawn from the Hong Kong avian flu experience. My question, Sir, to the Minister, is: what did PPD do during the Hong Kong crisis and what lessons were drawn from that experience? Does PPD have any contingency plan to meet such an eventuality, touch wood? If yes, such a plan should be regularly tested. In view of the seriousness of what happened to Hong Kong, Sir, PPD should review its existing control measures, and if and when necessary, tighten them.

Sir, the topic I would like to talk about is branding of eggs. I spoke on the branding of eggs consecutively in the past two Budget debates. I am glad to note that some progress was made. Today, all chicken eggs sold in Singapore are branded with logos representing either the farm or the importer. For some eggs, the name "Singapore" is printed to indicate the eggs are produced by our local high-tech farms. Sir, on the branding of eggs, I would like to ask the following two questions. First, if the local farm is doing both the egg-laying and egg-importing business, should the two products, local eggs and imported eggs, be branded by the same logo but the word "Singapore" is added for the local eggs. I ask this question because this could cause confusion as certain local farms do not print the word "Singapore" next to their farm logo. Second, when we see the word "Singapore" printed on the egg, does it mean that the eggs are genuinely produced by our local farms? Does the Ministry take sufficient action to ensure their authenticity? About a month ago, my CCC Chairman and I went to a supermarket to purchase two boxes of local eggs, twenty pieces, with the word "Singapore" printed on them. I notice that in one particular box, three out of the 10 eggs were tainted with chicken droppings. In order to prove that there is nothing unusual, I went to a supermarket in Queenstown last week. I was unable to confirm that dirty eggs could be easily found. I believe that the name "Singapore" means "quality" and how could we feel comfortable when it is used in association with dirty eggs tainted with bird droppings. I hope the Ministry could set out some specifications for the farms if they want to print the word "Singapore" on their products. A penalty should be considered if anyone should misuse the word "Singapore". 4.15 pm

Sir, the hon. Member for Chua Chu Kang is a good friend of mine. He is an automotive engineer but he seems to have a fascination for birds and eggs. He is becoming an expert on birds. I would warn him how the Chinese press will translate that. But jokes aside, Sir, he and Mr Zainul Abidin raised a very serious issue about the possibility of Avian flu invasion into Singapore. I want to reassure him that he should not, like all the economists, classify Singapore as among the emerging countries. Singapore is not Hong Kong. We are four to five hours flight away. Singapore is Singapore, and we are very safe. Let me elaborate. Singapore is free from bird or Avian flu and other bird-related diseases that can cross from birds to humans. The risk of the introduction of Avian flu into Singapore is negligible as the PPD has in place an effective farm and plant accreditation programme and tight import control systems to prevent introduction of such diseases. PPD has an on-going surveillance programme to check for Avian flu in imported and domestic poultry. Unlike Hong Kong, Singapore does not allow the slaughter of poultry at wet markets. We did this sometime ago. But it is no longer done today. Live poultry in Singapore is assigned directly to the centralised slaughter houses for slaughter within one day. The public does not get a chance to come into contact with live poultry and the potential for infection is thus drastically reduced to almost zero. Further, the poultry in Singapore is confined to seven farms. Dr Low is the advisor to some of these farmers and he understands better than I do, that these farms are well regulated, hygienic, clean and they are well monitored by PPD. It is, therefore, easy to contain any outbreak, like bird disease, compared to other countries like Hong Kong. But Dr Low and Mr Zainul Abidin have raised very valid issues. Is it at all possible for Avian flu virus to invade Singapore? There are no guarantees. But given the surveillance programme we have in place, it is unlikely that any Singaporean will be contaminated with Avian flu in Singapore from imported poultry. They may get it on holiday in Hong Kong, I do not know. Nonetheless, we will take note of the lessons learned in Hong Kong. Mr Zainul Abidin asked what we were doing when the outbreak was at its peak in Hong Kong. Singapore sent three representatives to Hong Kong to study the situation there with the hope of learning important lessons and preventing an outbreak at the same time in Singapore. At the moment, PPD is looking at the surveillance system and coming out with an exercise plan that just in case an unknown virus were to come to Singapore, we will know what to do. Because it is a multi-agency task, we need to coordinate with Environment Ministry; we need to coordinate with the Ministry of Health; we need to coordinate with the media. So the programme is in place. And I want to assure the two Members and all Singaporeans that if the virus does come, which is unlikely, we are ready. On the egg problem, this is Dr Low's cut in three successive years. Imitation is the best form of flattery. So I think our chicken farmers must have done something good because foreign egg farmers are now, according to Dr Low, putting the Singapore logo onto their eggs. But this is not prevalent. Let me explain. Since January 1997, PPD requires both imported and local eggs to be labelled. So if it is a foreign egg, you label it accordingly. If it is a local egg, or you import it, you label it accordingly. This is to enable PPD to take the necessary action. If eggs from any particular consignment are found contaminated with harmful pathogens or residues, we can stop the eggs if we discover something irregular. Eggs sold in Singapore are inspected and monitored by PPD very regularly. We consume something like 3 million eggs a day. So it is an important health matter for PPD. Imported eggs especially are checked to ensure that the consignments of eggs are clean and labelled with a unique farm code and logo of the exporting farm. If a consignment of imported eggs is found to have mislabelled eggs, or if more than 5% of eggs in a consignment are unlabelled, then PPD will take action. This ranges from a warning to a total ban. PPD has on its own also received feedback that some imported eggs have the word "Singapore" branded on them. PPD will intensify these checks and take corrective action. But to help consumers differentiate local eggs from imported eggs, the PPD, with the help of local farmers, will be introducing a Singapore Quality Egg Scheme by June 1998. The scheme will allow local farms which meet prescribed standards to use a quality mark on their eggs. But at the same time, I urge the Member to also inform his egg farmers that the egg farmers themselves must be proactive. They must market their eggs to local consumers. So local consumers are aware that this egg is imported, not so good maybe; this egg is locally produced, maybe very good. So I think the marketing aspect must be done by the local farmers. And only then will loyalty to local brands be established in the long run. But I thank the Members, Dr Low and Mr Zainul Abidin, for raising this important issue and I hope the House is reassured.

Sir, can I have a clarification? I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary is aware that some egg producers claim that their eggs contain low cholesterol. Let me tell you my experience. I bought one of these boxes of eggs, claiming to have low cholesterol. And when the egg was half-boiled, cracked open, I noticed that the yolk of the egg was very large compared to other eggs. To my understanding, all the cholesterol is, in fact, contained in the yolk of the egg, and not the white of the egg. So if this egg has got a larger than normal size yolk, how can the producers claim that it has got low cholesterol?

Sir, I have heard similar tales that some of the locally produced eggs contain low cholesterol. I am not a veterinarian, I am an agronomist. But I tend to believe that there is a possibility, a real likelihood, that our locally produced eggs contain low cholesterol because the cholesterol content in the chicken and the egg depends on the chicken feed. And I am told that Singapore farmers, through advice given by Dr Low, use good chicken feed. It is just like humans. If you take a lot of pork fat, teka, you have cholesterol. But if you take vegetables, fresh fruits, you may have lower cholesterol. So I am assured that our local chicken farmers use good chicken feed. So do not complain that chicken egg is slightly more expensive in Singapore.

Sir, I think the Parliamentary Secretary missed the point. The point is that all the cholesterol is contained only in the egg yolk. So if the egg yolk is larger than normal, it would definitely contain more cholesterol than an egg which has got a smaller yolk, unless you are saying that the concentration of the cholesterol is very high.

It is not true, because he is saying that bigger yolk must correlate with higher cholesterol. A skinny person can have high cholesterol. A fat man may have low cholesterol. So what appears to be may not be.

I think we have to get away from this chicken and egg question. Would you like to withdraw the amendment and move on?

The Parliamentary Secretary has not replied to one of the important questions, that is, the point on compensation. Because every now and then certain lots of the chickens in the farm have to be destroyed due to certain reasons. So in the case like Hong Kong, 1.5 million chickens were actually destroyed, which was quite a significant number. We do not have such a big farm. But whichever way, if it happens that those chickens have to be destroyed, would the Ministry consider some form of compensation?

Sir, that is a hypothetical question and I do not give hypothetical answer. As I said earlier on, it is unlikely that the Avian flu of any kind would contaminate Singapore chickens. When it comes, we are ready. We will then talk about the compensation issue when it comes.

Sir, I think the Parliamentary Secretary refers to the Avian influenza case. But for other cases, we did in the past destroy tens of thousand of birds, either young chicks or even the chickens in the farm. It had happened in the past, and I believe it will still happen continuously. So the question is that if in future, there is such a case, would the Ministry consider compensation?

Sir, as I said earlier on, we do not deal with "ifs", we deal with "whens".

Prof. Low, would you like to withdraw your amendment?

Sir, the Parliamentary Secretary has given a very good answer but it is not very satisfactory. But, whichever way, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. (4), Mr Ang.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head U of the Development Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code UI 5100. (In Mandarin): So far, about 7,000 units of shops with 99-year lease have been sold since the implementation of the HDB Shop Ownership Scheme. In 1997, for the first time, about 200 shops were sold with 30-year lease. The response was very good and the take-up rate is as high as 97%. In Bukit Gombak Constituency, I believe we have 100% take-up rate. Shop tenants who bought these shops are now paying monthly instalments which are actually lower than the rental they were paying prior to the purchase. This will help them to cut cost in their business, and a great help to the shopowners. They are very happy about it. I would like to thank the Minister for helping these small-time businessmen with this kind of scheme to help them tide over the difficult times ahead. Sir, from the feedback I received, I understand that some shopowners who bought the 99-year lease shops are paying very heavy monthly instalments. I hope that HDB will consider allowing them to convert the 99-year lease to 30-year lease, so as to lighten their financial burden, especially at this time when the economy is not so good they need help to tide over. Sir, I have a few questions to ask the Minister: Firstly, how many shopowners have bought shops with a 99-year lease? How many of them have applied to convert the 99-year lease to 30-year lease? Secondly, according to my understanding, the closing date for such applications is at the end of this month. I hope that the Minister will consider extending the closing date or even completely abolish the closing date, so as to give these shopowners more time to consider whether or not to apply for the conversion. At this time of economic uncertainty, we should be more sympathetic to these small-time businessmen by giving them more breathing space to pull through these difficult times. The third question is, since the 30-year lease has the support of the shopowners, will the Government consider selling more of the remaining shops, and how many such shops can be sold per year? Sir, I also hope that the Minister will consider selling some of these 30-year lease shophouses to the existing shopowners in Bukit Gombak, in the next round of sales of shops. 4.30 pm

Sir, I was pleasantly surprised to learn from the Minister just now that two thirds of the HDB shops have already been sold. I wonder whether he has forgotten some of his older customers and lessees in some of the older HDB shops in areas like Queenstown. In particular, I am referring to the Tanglin Halt precinct area where shops which are more than 30 years are still not sold. Many of the lessees of these shops are very keen to have their shops purchased, at least on a 30-year scheme or lease. They hope that with that they could rejuvenate the area and the shops. I was told that perhaps one of the reasons is that they are two-level shops. So the cost of land may be higher. But there have been cases of two-level shops which have been sold by HDB. Even in that precinct, many of the shops are actually on the ground level of high-rise buildings. I hope the Ministry can consider this and give these old and loyal customers of HDB a chance.

Sir, first, I would like to give Members of this House an update of the 30-year lease shop sale scheme. The HDB has received 95 written enquiries on the conversion from 99-year lease to 30-year lease. Out of these, 52 shopowners are actively pursuing their applications. HDB is processing these applications and will inform them of the buy-back process for the existing leases and the selling prices of the 30-year leases soon. These shopowners would then have to decide whether to proceed with the conversion. Mr Ang Mong Seng asked whether the Ministry will consider giving 99-year lease shopowners more time to convert their 99-year lease to 30-year lease. We have given a four-month window for existing 99-year lease shopkeepers to convert to 30-year lease. The announcement was made on 1st December 1997 and the closing date is 31st March 1998. Anybody will consider this reasonable. Nonetheless, since the Member has made an appeal, we can consider extending it. But it is not the intention of HDB to keep this window wide open permanently. In view of the current economic slowdown, an introduction of the 30-year lease and also the picture as to whether the conversion of 99-year or 30-year lease is very welcomed or otherwise, HDB will reduce the sale of shops programme to two sales a year, that is, about 200 shops in each sale. HDB will review this number periodically and respond to the sale of shops accordingly. The Member has made a passionate plea to HDB to sell some of the shops in his area to the shop tenants. I will ask HDB to keep in mind his appeal. Mr Chay has asked whether HDB has forgotten some of the older estates like Queenstown. The answer is no. Because he is in Tanjong Pagar GRC, I will never forget him. But HDB sells shops according to various criteria, ie, geographical spread, age, need and potential land use. So the sale of shops programme has not arrived in the Queenstown ward. But I will ask HDB to look at his request again.

I would like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary. I wish to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. (5), Mr Chiam.

Sir, I beg to move, That the total sum to be allocated for Head U of the Main Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code UJ 2600. I shall be speaking on the subject of Community Improvement Projects Committee (CIPC) funds. Sir, I have spoken on this subject many times in this House and I shall continue to do so. The reason is that under the present system of disbursing CIPC funds, which are public money, the Opposition Members of Parliament shall never be able to get any CIPC funds to help them carry out the community projects in their constituencies. Currently, if my town council wants to embark on a community project, I have to apply for CIPC funds through the Chairman of the CCC, who is presently Mr Andy Gan. Mr Andy Gan, as you know, was the PAP parliamentary candidate who contested against me in the last two general elections, but lost. Recently, it was announced that Mr Gan shall stand against me in the next GE. That being the case, I do not expect that he would advise his Chairman of the CCC to approve applications for CIPC funds from me, who is his rival. If the system of disbursing CIPC funds is not changed, I shall never be able to get any of such funds to carry out any of my community projects in my constituency. Sir, I am asking that the present system of allocation of CIPC funds in relation to the Opposition wards be changed. As an Opposition Member, I do not have any grassroots organisations there. So applications cannot be made through the grassroots organisations which are not present. I would suggest that at the Opposition wards, the MP should be given the authority to recommend applications for CIPC funds and not the Chairman of the CCC. Unless we have this change of disbursing CIPC funds, an Opposition Member cannot carry out any improvements in his constituency to the extent that PAP-controlled constituencies can. Sir, as regards the disbursement of CIPC funds, to-date, I believe that each of the PAP MPs has benefited by about $1 million worth of CIPC funds. But no Opposition MP has been successful in his application for CIPC funds. This House has recently been told that a sum of $36 million shall be set aside for CIPC funds. If we divide this amount equally among the 83 MPs, each would be allocated about $430,000. My question is: will each of the Opposition MPs be allocated this amount for their community projects this year?

Sir, it has been a long day. It is always interesting to listen to Mr Chiam. He asked whether all elected Members are entitled to a share of the CIPC funds. My answer is all CCCs, all Singaporeans are entitled to the CIPC funds, which is more important. All CCCs, including Potong Pasir CCC, have benefited from the disbursement of CIPC funds. It is important to work through the channels of CCC. Mr Chiam is very welcome to work with some of the grassroots organisations like, for example, the Sennett Residents' Association which is, I am sure, apolitical and, being a private estate Residents' Association, it is likely to be politically sympathetic to Mr Chiam. It is not true that all PAP MPs have an easy time getting CIPC funds. I have on many occasions turned down requests from many of my colleagues. Each project is evaluated based on its cost benefit analysis. If it benefits your residents and if the cost benefit ratio works out, then it does not matter whether you are a PAP MP or an Opposition MP. In fact, his Potong Pasir ward has benefited from the CIPC programme. So has Mr Low Thia Khiang's ward which has benefited enormously from the CIPC programme. And this was after the 1991 election.

I do not understand how the Parliamentary Secretary can say that all MPs have benefited tremendously from these CIPC funds. As I understand Mr Andy Gan only managed to get $7,500 ---

$7,750.

Anyway, it is not even $10,000, and not 1% of what a PAP MP's CCC would have been awarded on average. So he cannot say that it is tremendous. In any event, the point is that we are also doing community projects, like constructing pebble walk, landscaping, walkways and covered walkways. These are projects in which CIPC funds have been freely disbursed to the PAP constituencies. Why are we not allowed to get such similar funds? We have to spend our own funds of $300,000 to erect five linkways. We have asked for it, but we did not get it. Why?

First of all, Mr Chiam, being a longer Member in this House, knows better than I do that CIPC is an extension of the Urban Rural Services Committee which was set up in the early 1960s to do gotong royong projects. The arrangement then was that the CCCs would work together with the grassroots organisations and put up submissions to the Ministry to get funding. Since the formation of town councils, we have stuck to this arrangement because his jurisdiction as a Town Council Chairman only extends to the HDB estates' common areas. It does not extend to areas like Sennett Estate, where the CCC can rarely reach out to the non-HDB estates' common areas which are outside his jurisdiction. That is the reason why the CCC is still the best vehicle for applying for CIPC funds. If I were Mr Chiam, I will work with the Sennett RA and the various grassroots organisations. The important thing is to get the disbursement through. If he jumps on the right vehicle, then he may get the CIPC fund.

Can I get one more clarification?

Yes.

Sir, I want the system changed. Because as long as the present system is in existence, as an elected MP, I have to apply to an Advisor, who is the defeated candidate, for funds. How is he going to advise his Chairman? Will he say, "Okay, by all means give it to Mr Chiam." He would never do that. That is against his interest. He wants to be known that he is doing the project. And if he cannot do it, I also cannot get it. So it is a dog in the manger policy. I hope the PAP will not accept such a policy. We want the constituency improved and the only way we can really improve it to the standard of the PAP's is we must have the CIPC funds. Let us play on a level field.

Sir, I have suggested how he can get the CIPC funds and, that is, to work with the grassroots organisations. Some time last month, he asked me in this House whether I have received the submissions for walkways proposed by his town council. I have not received that. I was thinking that even if he follows the proper channel, goes through the CCC, CCC approves and it comes to me, I am not sure whether he has the money to do the walkways. Because I said in this House last year that most CIPC-funded projects come with a co-payment portion. The CCC may use the town council as the agent. For some projects like walkways, the co-funding is 10% by the town council. So CIPC pays 90%. Walkways are very expensive. The per foot run unit cost is something like $1,000-$2,000. 4.45 pm I have been looking at his balance sheet and income statement, and he has been running operating deficits for two years. For 1995-1996, the operating deficit was $150,000. For 1996-1997, the operating deficit was $195,000. I wonder how the Member can run a town council. His accumulated deficit is $114,000. I told him last year and I will tell him again that he should not be asking for projects. He should be cutting projects. He should be finding ways to make his town council viable, because he is two years in the red.

Sir, I am very sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary should bring this up, because it is not in our topic of debate. The debate now is about disbursing of CIPC funds. And out of the blue, he wants to delve into Potong Pasir Town Council's accounts. But I am telling him now that we have never run into a deficit except for one year. Last year, due to a technical problem, as an MP, I had to change parties. Apparently, we had to take away all the monies that I had in credit balance and put it into some other funds. And because of this movement of funds, it would appear that we had a deficit. But, in fact, we have, on record now a credit balance of over $300,000. So we had got no deficits for two years. This is not true. I think he had better withdraw that statement or verify his facts before he says that Potong Pasir Town Council has two years of deficit. The point is that the system must be changed. If the system is not changed, I will never get any CIPC funds for improvements or projects at Potong Pasir. That is the crux of the matter. The Parliamentary Secretary has asked me to go to Sennett Estate and ask the residents' association to do it. But Sennett Estate is a private estate. It is not a HDB estate. We are talking about HDB estates. The private estates can take care of themselves. The two HDB estates in Potong Pasir are much larger than Sennett Estate. We should start with the housing estates in Potong Pasir first before we go on to Sennett Estate. Sir, the point is whether I can get a commitment from the Ministry of National Development that the rules of applying for CIPC funds will be changed.

Sir, the operating deficits were published in the auditor's statements. These are published statements. If the figures are wrong, his auditors should make a clarification, because these are published statements and readily available to the public. He has run two operating deficits. Will we change the system? The answer is no, because the system is working. He has to work with Mr Andy Gan. He has to work with the Sennett Residents' Association. I think a lot of things can be done in the Sennett private estate. I have driven through Sennett Estate and for parts of it things can be done. He has not made an attempt to do so. Has he talked to Mr Andy Gan? Mr Gan tells me that if Mr Chiam would talk to him, he might sit down with him over a cup of coffee. Sir, the answer is no, we will not change the system, because Mr Chiam has not made an attempt to talk to Mr Andy Gan.

Mr Chiam, would you like to withdraw your amendment? We still have one more amendment. I do not think you are going to get your way.

Actually, I still have not got a satisfactory answer from the Parliamentary Secretary. In any case, I shall withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. (6), Mr Zainul Abidin.

Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head U of the Development Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code UL 5200. Sir, after the chicken and egg, shops and constituency development, allow me to clear the air and move to greener pastures. It is about the development of the Singapore Botanic Gardens and Fort Canning Park. After nearly 10 years of development and upliftment, the Botanic Gardens has come to be recognised as an attractive landmark not only by Singaporeans but the world over. It is now a major recreation and education resource for locals and tourists. The Ministry should look into ways as to how to attract more visitors, especially locals, to allow better utilisation of this rich green lung in our highly urban environment. Would the Minister consider increasing its activities of mass appeal, especially at night when it is much cooler in this tropical climate? Other than the environmentally-friendly approach towards upgrading the gardens, how about introducing more soul into it? More could be done to have cultural and musical activities staged in the Botanic Gardens, especially during the weekends. In addition, elements of history should also be injected into the Gardens to enrich its value. The early history of Singapore, particularly those pertaining to that part of the island, could be re-enacted or shown through exhibits in the Gardens. Similarly, for the Fort Canning Park. More soul could be blown into the Park through cultural and musical events, staged in open air. As for history, Fort Canning is abound with history, both modern and ancient. While the Ministry has done much to capture the elements of modern history from the `shrine' of Sultan Iskandar Shah, the Fort Gate to the Battle Box, there is more that could be done. One era of some interest and importance is that of the pre-Parameswara and prior to the opening of the island by the British.

Sir, I thank the Member for moving to these two very green pastures. How do we inject life, soul and spirit into the Singapore Botanic Gardens (SBG) and Fort Canning Park? These are the issues which are focusing the minds of the National Parks officials. They will take up some of his ideas. Over the years, they have been doing quite a lot. The fact that these two places are tropical parks makes it a little bit difficult compared to, say, temperate parks like Hyde Park or Central Park, because the weather is against them. If we mount a cultural show or a Shakespearean play in the afternoon, very few people will go there. So we are limited to narrow time windows, in the evenings and public holidays. The Member's points are taken and we will see how to make these things come alive at Fort Canning, and how to make SBG more exciting. As for some of the items that we have done, eg, we have opened up SBG up to midnight. I think we can do a lot from the evening to midnight. Since 1995, performances have also been staged at the Symphony Stage, located at Symphony Lake. These, I understand, have been attracting very appreciative and sizable audiences. The School of Horticulture in the Singapore Botanic Gardens has been conducting gardening courses and guided tours. All these help to inject some life and culture into SBG. Fort Canning Park is a different kettle of fish. It is on a hill. It has a lot of historical potential and we will work with Mr Zainul Abidin to see how we can make it more exciting. Of course, now the Battle Box is there, not well used and not well known but it is there. Maybe we should encourage schools to conduct more visits. Dr Ong Chit Chung is not here. Maybe I will ask him to facilitate, as he is involved in the Battle Box.

Sir, with that refreshing response, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I think this has been quite a day of fishes, chickens, birds and eggs. The sum of $460,151,560 for Head U ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $17,219,293,400 for Head U ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. Head J -

Head J - Ministry of Community Development. Dr Vasoo, amendment No. (1).

Sir, I beg to move, That the total sum to be allocated for Head J of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100. Sir, having heard chickens, eggs, fishes and other related issues, we will move to people and people-orientated issues. We should pay more attention to social and community development. I think this is very important, because we can reduce the social divide amongst people. We need to enhance community building. Otherwise, there will be abrasions in the community amongst different groups and, therefore, it is essentially necessary that we pay very close attention to the area of community building. Sir, the social health of Singapore society varies directly with the degree of Singaporeans' civility. The more civil we are, the more caring we are, the more cohesive the community will be. My parliamentary colleagues and I join the Minister to urge the Ministry of Finance to deploy more resources to the Ministry of Community Development, so that they will be able to undertake more programmes for building a more cohesive community. I think this is important because there should be more resources to be allocated in the area of prevention of social problems and in helping to build better communities. Sir, in terms of the preventive programmes, we should pay close attention to this. There is a need to invest in people. I feel there is a need for more resources. We are not asking for handouts but it is important to invest in the social infrastructure. And this is crucial because it is in the interest of building a better community, a better social health of the people. Sir, I now turn to the assistance for the retrenched workers. In anticipation that more older and unskilled workers are likely to be affected by retrenchment, it is helpful for the Ministry to put in place additional measures and plans to assist them. Some of these retrenched older workers, particularly those with less skills, may be less employable. And I foresee that there will be this group of people who require help. They may face hardship. I would like to find out what additional contingency measures that the Ministry will be taking to help older retrenched workers.

Sir, may I first of all declare my interest. I am a resource panel member of the GPC on Community Development as well as a member of the Maintenance of Parents Tribunal. Sir, I wholeheartedly endorse the observations made by Dr Vasoo. If we want to build a caring society, a society that looks after one another and is concerned about the well-being of the society, then we must get our priority right. In Singapore's context, I think a call has been made by my colleague, Madam Chiang, about the allocation of funds. I am not trying to begrudge the Ministry of Home Affairs for its funds. But I think MCD should be given sufficient funds so that it could carry out its responsibility and duty to the society at large. 5.00 pm Sir, I have stated in the budget debate that the emphasis should be on retraining of the workers, but there may be a small group of workers who may find it difficult to either retrain or even obtain a job in the market, Sir. They may be out of employment for some long months and I think we should give them some financial assistance. The usual assistance that they will get will be not sufficient. In doing so, I would like to assure the Minister that I am not suggesting that we should go on encouraging handouts, welfarism, but I think it would be unjust not to help our fellow Singaporeans, who because of the economic conditions, do not have the financial means to look after the family. In this particular context, Sir, I am really concerned about the children, their education and welfare, should not suffer. I would ask the Minister to urge his colleague, if need be, to set up a special fund for this purpose and perhaps at a later date he could persuade his colleague, the Minister for Finance. It is of course not helping the economy directly but you are helping your fellow Singaporeans who may later on help the economic life of Singapore. I would urge the Minister to consider this.

On the area of care for the aged and dependants, Sir, this area should receive serious attention although we have been discussing about this area for a long time. It has been attended to by a number of ministries, ie, the Ministry of Community Development, the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Labour which deals with retired workers. So there are a number of ministries involved in this whole issue. There is a need for a more coordinated effort to examine this whole area of care for the aged in a more comprehensive manner. Although there is a Committee which is studying into this whole issue, there is a need for one ministry to orchestrate, manage and direct the whole plans for the care of the aged. And this is very important because you require a single agency to set directions to deal with a problem, the greying problem of Singapore, in a more comprehensive manner. Sir, in the next 10 years, at least 15% of our population would have aged. Population ageing will pose an acute challenge to our society. I note that in my meet-the-people sessions there are increasing numbers of families who are requesting for help for the dependent aged and particularly the aged who are sick and disabled. Many members of these families are working. They work in different sectors. It makes it difficult for them to render assistance, ie, the care and support to their aged parents who require special care. With all the goodwill and intention, Sir, many of these families run into serious stress and problems. It is important that we examine these issues very closely and see how this whole problem of the care of dependent aged can receive the kind of service delivery which would be effective. Sir, more people are also expected to retire. There is a large talent pool out there and many of them can contribute further to our society. There is a case to see how their talents and expertise could be tapped and redeployed and how they could be helped to be re-engaged in our society to continue to be useful members. Sir, in time to come, we will also witness that there will be less carers available because of a declining population. On average, the family-size will be less than 2 children. Many of these children will be left with the problems of the burden of care and we have to see how these dependent family members can be supported through a strengthened support network within the community itself. Sir, in the light of this acute greying scenario, the Ministry should take a lead role to implement a more comprehensive plan to meet the challenges posed by our ageing population. Sir, what comprehensive and coordinated plans are going to be put in place to deal with the ageing problems more effectively? This is an important issue that we have to deal with because there are more and more families that will be affected by this problem out there. We still require many of these family members to contribute to the economy. We need to find ways to lessen their burden and there is an urgency to find a better coordinated effort to deal with this greying issue of Singapore.

Sir, most people, including women, need to work for a living. The care of their dependants and the needs arising from their having to work then become important. My concern, Sir, is about how much more can we further enhance our facilities to benefit our elderly and our school-going children. Although the Ministry of Community Development has done very well up till now in these two areas, there is a need for an even more radical and accelerated approach. In view of the rapidly increasing population of the elderly and the increasing recognition of benefits from supervised care of children before and after the school hours, MCD may perhaps be even more proactive and supportive towards having more Centres of Activities for the Retired and Elderly (CARE) and Before-and-After School Care (BASC) Centres. Sir, I am not suggesting building more expensive structures. I am suggesting increased usage of community centres. Most of our community centres are strategically located all over Singapore and they are all within walking distances from the housing estates. This user-friendly element is only one of the plus points. The other and perhaps even more important advantages include very low capital outlay and very reduced running costs. This is possible, when in fact, these centres are supported by grassroots organisations like CCMCs, CCCs and even RCs. Self-help within the community is a desirable feature and better rapport among the residents will be promoted. Putting to better use our community centres which are sparingly used in the day time is also a worthwhile point for consideration. This is so in the case of CARE, especially when various facilities like activity halls, dining halls, karaoke and games rooms are already present in community centres. As for BASC centres, there are already several of them operating in community centres. One of them is in my Kim Seng Constituency at the Bukit Ho Swee Community Centre. It is rather popular and is being run effectively and efficiently within the usual community centre setting. So much so that I feel we should accelerate introducing the concept of BASC programmes at community centres. I notice that one of these centres needs only 30 students to become self-sufficient. We do need a further 60 or so BASC centres in the next few years. Sir, I must say that the support for BASC centres from the Ministry for Community Development has been most commendable. I would like to see the same sense of commitment and urgency given towards the CARE concept. I am sure the People's Association will be happy that the various community centres and clubs be used in this value-added manner and welcome such arrangements.

Sir, ageing is not just a problem of the poor who are being well taken care of by the service of MCD. Ageing and how to cope with the problems of ageing and how to care for them is a major issue. The best care for the aged is to help them to continue working and to help them to care for themselves. Many senior citizens, who are still healthy, want to carry on working. Employment services for senior citizens are taken care of by the MOL, PA, MCD, SAGE and others. The demand for retirees seeking full-time or part-time employment will increase. But currently, there are problems such as employer's attitude towards employing retirees, the elderly's salary expectation and other demands which are not realistic. Sir, there should be job counselling for older job registrants but I understand this is lacking. Providing a second career for retirees would be a major challenge. Currently, different Government ministries handle different services for the aged. MCD looks after the aged and the destitute, while MOH looks after health and home nursing needs. Volunteer welfare organisations look after senior citizens, day-care centres, befriender networks and meal deliveries. Of course HDB looks after the housing needs. The elderly are a very diverse group of people with different needs. There is therefore a need to provide a total approach in the care of the elderly so that the needs of the various groups of elderly can be addressed. Many of the aged find it very confusing to have to go to different agencies to apply for various forms of assistance. Care for the aged can be better coordinated and improved so as to avoid duplication of resources. MCD with its wide experience in looking after senior citizens could be the lead agency to handle all issues relating to the elderly. There should be a one-stop service point set up in MCD and all the CDC service centres to explain policies and provide services to senior citizens. This can be easily done through IT and the different Government computerised networks. Sir, in our Asian culture, the family is expected to look after the elderly. In encouraging families to take care of the elderly, the Government and the community have to provide options to help such families cope with the elderly and at the same time maintain and strengthen family links between the generations. With advance in modern medicine and longer life-span we now have the old in their 60s looking after the yet older parents in their 80s, and many of these people in the 60s themselves need care. Families who have to cope with work and at the same time take care of frail elderly parents can certainly need information, guidance and training on care giving as well as different support services to help them. Sir, I would like to ask the Minister what services are available now to address these needs. Are these needs sufficient? And what plans are there to meet the increasing demand for such services as our population ages.

Sir, I share the sentiments of Dr Ho with regard to the problems faced by the aged, but I would like first to deal with the young dependants. Sir, Dr Lily Neo has pointed out the after-care centres. I think it is important that we look after our young students and I am glad that the community centres - and I applaud the community centres - are doing a good job. I visited the CDAC self-help group in which Mr Chan Soo Sen was then running at Toa Payoh and I was very impressed by the way it was managed. What I would urge is that the other community clan associations, which have their own premises, which are not used in the day time, could consider turning them into after-care centres and perhaps the Minister may consider giving them some grants. It is not really expensive to run such centres. I think we can solve this problem, Sir. Sir, the community centres are doing a wonderful job but I do not think we are going to be fair to them to allow them to shoulder the responsibility. I think the community at large must also do something about this. Sir, I now move to the problems of the aged. The Government has acknowledged that we are going to have an ageing problem in years to come. Unless we tackle the problem now, we would have to face greater problems in years to come. Sir, the President, in the Opening of the 9th Parliament, has highlighted the issue and in the Addendum to the Ministry of Community Development this was what was said. May I quote with your permission, Sir. `We will encourage Singaporeans to prepare early for retirement, and to remain socially and physically active as they become senior citizens. We will promote positive attitudes towards ageing and filial responsibilities. Respect for elders should be an integral value in our gracious society.'

5.15 pm Sir, I would urge the Minister to look afresh at a report which was actually discussed in this House some years back. I am referring to the Howe Yoon Chong Report. By courtesy of the Librarian, I was given a copy and I studied it. I would urge the Ministry officials and the Minister to have a look at it. Many of the observations and recommendations it had made should be relooked. Unfortunately, because of CPF, we threw the baby with the bath water. We should not make the error again. Sir, we should encourage our citizens to prepare for retirement. I totally agree. They should be prepared, both financially and mentally. We are living in a healthier condition and we are having a longer lifespan. So we should encourage the habit of saving and investment. I think just to rely on CPF alone would be very foolish. It would not be sufficient. What we ought to do is to encourage ourselves, instead of spending on things which are not essential, to invest our savings, and I am glad that the Government is relaxing the rules on CPF. Sir, mentally, we must let the older Singaporeans, our senior citizens, know that they are not unwanted by society. We must take care of them. All of us are going to be old one day. And it is an on-going process, especially for those who are sick and infirm. We must take special care, and health care is very essential. One area which I think we have not paid enough attention, Sir, is housing. Especially on public housing, we have to think of how to integrate the retiree village, if we are going to build one. It should not be isolated somewhere outside. It should be an integral part of the housing scheme, so that these people would feel that they are wanted in the community. It is sad to say in some countries, it is isolated and is never popular. The best thing is to keep our old at home. But there may be situations, Sir, and I agree, that we may have to send them elsewhere, ie, home for the aged or retiree village. I would urge the Minister to persuade his colleague, the Minister for National Development, to look at housing which is very important. I know we are concerned with the health aspect, but I think housing is an essential part of the whole retiring process.

The topic I would like to talk about is coordination of the aged programme. The call to make preparation for an aged population has been very successful. At present, senior citizens programmes mushroom in the community where both the Government-led bodies and the non-profit organisations are providing different types of services and facilities for the aged population. In the Residents' Committee level, we build senior citizens' corners. We also have the senior citizens' club in the community centre. They organise activities to brighten up the life of our senior citizens. At the MCD level, they run homes for the aged. In the Ministry of Health, they deal with the development of medicine for the aged and other preventive medicine to prepare for an aging society. Sir, at this moment, there is a lack of coordination between all the said organisations. This is especially true for the level of work in the RCs and the community clubs. There are organisations at the moment which merely run the centres to keep the senior citizens occupied, but activities are limited to social programmes, like outings, shopping, tea-tasting, or karaoke sessions. By right, they should conduct certain activities, like physical exercises, physiotherapy, introducing preventive medicine, care for friends who recover from sickness and counselling, or conducting courses to deal with the problems of the aged and retirement. However, due to a lack of professional knowledge of the leadership of this level of work, and the present coordinating body is not able to provide such professional support, they are not able to play a more constructive role to benefit the aged members, except confining themselves to only social activities. In order for all these front-line organisations to play a more constructive role, and to cover a wider and comprehensive kind of activities, they should be supervised, guided and supported by a body which has the resources or professional support for the aged. At this moment, there are too many organisations involved in the aged programme. They include MOH, MCD and the PA, and my colleagues just now mentioned that HDB is involved in providing housing. We should actually pool all the possible resources from the relevant departments of the different interested parties by setting up a unit in MCD to gather views, provide better coordination, offer more professional support and cater to the shortage of manpower, as mentioned by other Members. With the combined professional expertise from such a merger, I believe that we could do a much better job in serving the aged population.

(In Mandarin): Sir, Singapore is one of the countries where the population ages most rapidly. In 1980, only 7.5% of the population, or 173,400 persons were aged 60 and above. The number rose to 305,300 or 10% of the population in 1996. It is estimated that the number will rise to 900,000 or 20% of the population by the year 2030. As such, the problem of an aging population is something we cannot neglect. We should make sure that the aged are cared for, and the young are properly deployed for the good of the society. In fact, our Government has not forgotten the sacrifices and contributions made by these old people towards our social and economic development. Many Government departments and organisations have launched quite a number of programmes for the aged. For example, economically, our CPF system is providing Singaporeans with financial security after their retirement. Whether it is health care, housing, family protection or asset enhancement, the Government has shown great care and concern to provide Singaporeans with all their needs after retirement. Recently, HDB proposed to provide senior citizen apartments for them to apply and to live in. The People's Association and the grassroots organisations of the various constituencies are conducting various recreational, cultural and sports activities on a regular basis for the senior citizens who are still healthy and fit. The Ministry of Community Development has set up a "National Families and Aged People's Consultative Committee" to look into the needs of the senior citizens in Singapore. Some charitable organisations have also set up day-care centres and community hospitals for the benefit of these old people. The Housing and Development Board deals with housing and the Ministry of Community Development deals with setting up of homes for the aged while the Health Ministry looks after the healthcare of the aged. A few days ago, we debated the importance of training for our workforce. I must say that the problems of an aging population are equally important. Perhaps the Government could set up a "Life Planning Ministry" or the MCD could set up a special unit to deal with and coordinate all efforts by the various quarters to help the old people. There should be a centralised body to coordinate all the efforts in this respect. Otherwise, there may be duplication of efforts and thereby resulting in wastage of resources. If we have such a body, the problems of the aged can be divided into food, clothing, housing and transport. Most of the aged people receive support from their children. If possible, this body should provide counselling to the aged and train them to carry on working for as long as possible so that they can be economically independent. Because of the changes in our family pattern, most children move out to form their own families once they get married and both husband and wife go out to work to make a living. Therefore, looking after the aged is a problem. Some charitable organisations have set up some day-care centres to look after these aged people. At night, these aged people can go back to their homes. I think we should not send them to a home for the aged. Although they are provided with food, this is not healthy and it is very cruel to send them to the home. Therefore, it is important that we should set up day-care centres and convalescence centres. We should encourage the private sector to set up such centres to look after the aged. I appeal to the Government to provide enough funds for this purpose, so that more such centres can be set up. With the help of the private sector, we can do better. As for housing, although we plan to build senior citizen apartments for them, can we ask the PA to plan some activities, such as home nursing to look after those who are sick and to help them to take care of certain basic chores, eg, preparing tea or cooking porridge for them? Through the CDCs, PA and the MCD can also arrange for more activities for these aged people, not only recreational and cultural activities, but some care and concern for them, particularly those who are handicapped. Another matter I am concerned with is education and moral values. During the past few months, MCD launched some mass media programmes. I have received feedback from people that these programmes are very good. They depicted episodes of disputes between the parents-in-law and daughters-in-law and problems such as the lack of respect for parents. I hope that MCD would do more in this respect. MCD should liaise with TCS to produce more of such programmes. Another point is that we should psychologically prepare our aged people. Recently, in my constituency, we have looked into the psychological needs of such aged people. The aged people have slowly become senile. Certain disputes between parents-in-law and daughters-in-law are due to their psychological make-up. We do not understand their problems. For example, in a day-centre in my constituency, there are one or two older people who are constantly complaining that they had no food to eat, but the folks there told us that they had already taken their meals. Whenever they see a car driving near the centre, they would say they want to go home. In circumstances like this, our young people should be educated on how to look after the older people. So through certain grassroots activities, if we can have the hardware as well as the software, and if we can set up a special body to coordinate all the efforts, I think we can certainly do better in looking after the older folks among us. 5.30 pm

Sir, the hon. Members before me have pointed out that we do have an aging population. As I look around this House, I suspect that this House is probably greyer than it has been any time in its history. In any case, I know for a fact that the average age for the 23 freshmen MPs is higher than it has ever been before. We therefore clearly are aging as a nation. And I agree with Dr Vasoo that we should dedicate more funds for MCD to deal with the problems faced by an aging community. What is being done, what will be done, to prepare Singaporeans for the day that they too will grow old and to position our social structures to cope with that change. I would like to ask the Minister to update us on that. A further question is: would these plans be affected by the more austere budget necessitated by the regional financial crisis? Sir, I would like to move to my next cut.

Carry on.

I wish to talk of bonds and the breaking of bonds. But before you rule me out of order, I must quickly add that the bonds I am talking about are the social and family bonds which are the glue that holds our nation together. It is trite to say that the family is the building block of the nation, and that for the family to stay together we need to educate our young to respect their elders, to honour them and to look at them as the repositories of the wisdom which is our nation's resources and treasure. Too often, however, we pay lip services to these principles. Or perhaps we do not know how to be practical in teaching our young how to honour their elders. One of the most practical and eminent ways in which we can show we care and respect our elders is to acknowledge their past contributions. They have toiled to give us the Singapore we have today. They did not, as a rule, obtain the material benefits we gain today in doing the same thing. We can acknowledge their past contributions by praising them, but praise is not tangible and does not impact the young mind on the seriousness with which we praise. If we do not change the minds of the young, we will be guilty of planting the seeds which would cause a break in our social bonds. Would it not be possible for the small kindness movement, for example, to extend to the giving of more concessions to the elderly? First, we can extend the bus concessions we have given them by lifting restrictions on the routes and on the time of use. Second, we can encourage both public and private sectors to realise that concessions to the elderly are not entirely subsidies but a show of gratitude and also good business. The goodwill gained, the lessons imparted to the young, the extra money earned from the increased volume of repeat visits or purchases by the elderly - these are, I submit, of greatest value to us on the whole. Many places such as the museums, art festival performances, SSO concerts, perhaps the tourist spots which are currently languishing, and the cinemas which are flourishing on the other hand, these can all benefit from such concessions. There is a ready market out there which is currently being tapped only by conmen selling magnetic mattresses and spurious investments. Third, there can be centres put up at, say, community centres, or some other centres, like what Dr Neo said, which would take care of the elderly. Perhaps at these centres, besides giving them activities to do, we could also provide them with opportunities to buy daily necessities at concessionary rates and the marketers who sell such products and services can benefit by saving the cost which they pay for overheads, such as rental, advertising and middlemen's commissions. Government should take the lead by offering concessions for the elderly in Government-run places of interest and services. Let us stop thanking and praising our elders only and start giving them some practical help to alleviate their sometimes precarious financial conditions.

Sir, in the year 2030, Mr S. Iswaran, the youngest Member of this House, would be 68 years old if he told me the truth about his age. He will then join the ranks of the senior citizens, those who are 60 years and above. This group which now constitutes about 9% of the population will increase to about 25% in the year 2030. After leading a successful life as an economist at MTI, a corporate executive at Singapore Technologies and as a Parliamentarian, Mr Iswaran in 2030 would be deemed to be in his twilight years. At the same time, my son would be 35 years old then, at the prime of his life and probably doing things which are different from his father. The ratio of working adults to senior citizens would be 3:1, decreasing from the ratio of 10:1. We have heard all these statistics earlier. With life expectancy increasing and marriage and child births taking place later in life, Singapore in 2030 is expected to have three or even four generational families. What does all this mean for us today? We have heard that Singapore is a rapidly aging society. We are a country which caters to the young today. Can we do the same 30 years from now? The senior citizens of tomorrow, such as Mr Iswaran, Mr Chan Soo Sen, Dr Toh See Kiat, myself and many others in this House, would be mobile, highly skilled and literate and by all accounts will value our personal independence. The demands of this group and those of my son would be different and must be attended to. How then do we cater to a group which is seen as a spent force and a group which is seen as the engine of growth? Are these descriptions appropriate or even meaningful in this context? How do we cater to the likes of Mr Iswaran and company who spend their adult life building a Singapore for my son and his generation? There are many implications to this demographic scenario. For example, there will be more of the aged including non-ambulant cases requiring care. Whose responsibility would it be then to take care of the sick aged? Studies have shown, for example, that senior citizens' response time during driving would be eight times longer than that of a younger person. Will we need to obligate senior citizens to retake their driving tests then? These are some of the implications that both Mr Chan and I are looking at as part of the Singapore 21 Committee. I do not intend to elaborate here our findings. But there are some concerns that I would like to share. Many whom we have met have suggested that there is a glaring need for a national focused approach to the problem of aging. Some have even suggested that a Ministry of the Old be set up to take care of the aged. I am not sure whether they envision a young or an old man to head this Ministry. I do not think that these are wise suggestions. But underlying these suggestions is a concern that somehow society does not seem to care for the old. An elderly gentleman in fact said that it is better to die than to be old in Singapore. We have to change this view. Clearly, that is a problem of perception or "agism", to use the term coined to describe prejudice and discrimination against the elderly. Do we view the old as a spent force and therefore not provide resources for them? I do not think Mr Iswaran at the age of 68 will be a spent force. If anything, I am sure he will be able to contribute as long as he is healthy. Clearly, we should move away from the definition of the aged than ignore the need for independence among the healthy old. With the greying of Singapore, we will need to address the needs of two groups, the independent healthy old and the dependent frail old. We must begin to view both the old and the young as resources, each with their own abilities and capabilities. Society needs to provide opportunities for people of any age group to contribute economically or to volunteer their services as long as they are willing to do so. In fact, studies have shown that those who continue to live a healthy and active life tend to have less medical problems. Societal norms will also have to change to reflect this move away from treating the elderly as though they were children or senile. Studies have shown that a single elderly who remarries tends to live longer and healthier. But second marriages will carry other implications for the family. At the same time, we cannot ignore the problems of dependency among the sick and frail elderly. Many today have raised the concerns about this group. Their numbers will increase in future and they will also live longer in various stages of dependency. What can we do now to help this group of persons in the future? Sir, could the Minister inform the House of the current thinking in MCD concerning this problem? The Minister for Community Development (Mr Abdullah Tarmugi): Thank you, Sir, for allowing me to step in at this juncture to answer Members. I have decided to speak now because I think the problem of the aged is a very serious one, as has been mentioned earlier by many Members. And I would like to thank Members for their very generous support by calling on the Minister for Finance to give more funds to my Ministry. I hope that the Minister will hear these plaintive cries and do the necessary. Sir, the issue of the aged is a very important one. Several Members have mentioned the proportion of the aged increasing between now and the next century and how fast we are aging. In one study, it was stated that we are the fastest aging community in Asia, surpassing even Japan. In 1997, the aged 65 years and above in Singapore was 7% and it was forecast that by 2018, the proportion will double to 14%. It took Japan about 26 years to achieve the same increase. But it will take us only 21 years. So that gives a broad idea of the seriousness of the issue of the aged and how we want to handle the future when many of us, including Mr Iswaran, will be getting old, and how our children will handle their future. Aging, Sir, is an inevitability. So we must prepare for it. I agree with Members that it is indeed a major challenge for our community and everyone, and I mean everyone, the Government, the community, the VWOs and corporations, will have to put their minds together and look for solutions which will be best for our community. The issues and challenges are multi-faceted. They are very wide-ranging and we have to plan and lay the infrastructure to meet the needs and aspirations of a growing number of better educated aged, as mentioned earlier by Dr Yaacob. Their needs will be different. Their aspirations will be different from the elders now, from our fathers and indeed from even our own aspirations. So we will have to think of what we have to do to fulfil these aspirations, concerns and needs. The current approach now, Sir, is to draw the expertise of the various Ministries in planning and providing facilities and services to the aged and there are very close consultations among these various Ministries. My Ministry, for example, also works closely with HDB, the Ministry of National Development, Ministry of Home Affairs and the Ministry of Labour. We have close consultation at various levels in our Ministries. So from policy conceptualisation to programme implementation, there is very close consultation and this approach has served us well. But as the number of the aged grows, so will the impact on the rest of the society. Therefore, we would need to look at the problem of the aged holistically and comprehensively and an integrated approach be taken in our national response to address the needs, concerns and aspirations of our aged population. 5.45 pm There is also merit in having one agency, be it a Ministry or department, to take a lead role in coordinating and in putting things together to ensure that there is a seamless provision of service and a continuum of service being given to the aged. The lead agency, among other things, will have to provide overall strategic direction and policies for the elderly, and ensure a very coordinated response across Ministries and across programmes, and ensure that there is inter-Ministry coordination on issues of the aged which do not fall under any Ministry. My Ministry has been examining ways to further enhance policy coordination and policy development, and we are in the process of re-evaluating our approach in dealing with the aged and exploring the feasibility of my Ministry assuming the role of the lead agency. We will review our resources. We will review the expertise that we need, the steps that we have to take before we make any recommendations and before we offer ourselves to take on this lead role. But whatever structure we take, whatever we decide, we must continue to help the elderly to lead meaningful lives and to contribute to society. There are two basic philosophies which we hold. One is that the aged should be encouraged to live healthily, be financially independent, be socially active for as long as they can, and the Government holds on to this philosophy to ensure that our aged are healthy and that they will keep on contributing to the community. The second philosophy is that the aged should preferably live within the community, integrated in the community and preferably also with their families. As far as possible, we try to avoid putting and shunting our aged in institutions away from the community. I think this would answer Mr Rai's concern. We will have to pay attention to the specific difficulties of the care givers, the family members' trials and tribulations to take care of the aged, especially the frail aged and the sick aged, and we will have to ensure that there are enough facilities and community support to help the carers of the aged in the future. Let me now go to Mrs Yu-Foo's suggestions. She has many good suggestions which I will ask my officials to look into. She also emphasises the need for coordination, and I have mentioned earlier that we also accept that principle, and we will indeed be looking into how we can coordinate our programmes and our projects better. She made one suggestion about more private enterprises coming into the scene to provide facilities or services for the aged, and asking for Government support, preferably financial support, for this. Personally, I am reluctant to give direct financial support, especially to private enterprises, when the motive is profit. But if the private enterprise or organisation can come out to say that they are willing to provide some welfare services, we will consider the kind of support that we can give them. Let me now go to Dr Lily Neo and her issues and concerns on the BASC. The Ministry would like to thank Dr Lily Neo for her constant support of the Ministry's programmes, especially for the BASC, and now the new institutions which she calls CARE. The Member may wish to know that there are 82 non-profit BASC centres as at February this year, providing a total of 5,890 places. Another 75 centres are run by private operators, which are different from non-profit organisations. The Ministry plans to build another 74 non-profit BASC centres by the year 2000, and this will bring the total number of non-profit BASCs to 156 and the number of places to 10,400. We feel that this will be sufficient for our needs until 2000. If need be and if we find that demand is more than what we have supplied, we will definitely look into building more BASCs. As for CARE, as Members are aware, there are two types of day care programmes for the elderly. One is the social day care centres (SDCs) which come under the purview of my Ministry, and the other is the day rehabilitation centres which come under the purview of the Ministry of Health. Currently, there are six social day care centres offering a total of 207 places with a utilisation rate of about 80%. Another 10 SDCs are in the pipeline and these can offer another 500 places. If there is demand, my Ministry will certainly look into it and, if necessary, we will build more SDCs. As for the rehabilitation centres, there are currently 17 centres catering to the frail and elderly sick, and three catering to those suffering from senile dementia. Together, they provide a total of 700 places. The average utilisation rate is about 60%. Another four centres with 120 places are in the pipeline, and there are also plans to set up at least another eight new centres by the year 2000. We are aware that the health of the elderly vacillates between progress and regress, and they change from one state to another. As such, every effort is made to try to site the SDCs near to day rehabilitation centres, so that the elderly can be conveniently transferred from one facility to another with a minimum of fuss, and with convenience for their families. We will also continuously strive to provide a more coordinated and integrated day care programme to cater to the well elderly, frail elderly and elderly with disabilities. Dr Lily Neo proposes that BASC centres and Centres of Activities for the Retired and Elderly (CARE) to be sited in community centres. The Member may be pleased to know that both the People's Association and my Ministry support this proposal. The PA, through the CDCs, will continue to facilitate the setting up of such centres at the community centres jointly with voluntary welfare organisations in areas where there is demand for such services. But the Member should understand that these will also have to take into account the competing demands in the community centres. Nevertheless, we support this proposal and we will pursue it. Mr Shriniwas Rai mentioned the Howe Yoon Chong Report and how he regretted that it was not given the attention that it should be given. The Member may wish to know that contrary to what the Member believes, the Government indeed places importance on the recommendations of the Howe Yoon Chong Report. For example, the major initiative which I can mention is the public education efforts to change public perception of the elderly and encourage the elderly to be physically healthy and socially and mentally active. That has become one of our philosophies on how the elderly should proceed through life. Another recommendation of the Howe Yoon Chong Report was the employment of the aged. This was reinforced by the Advisory Council for the Aged in 1988 which led to the legislation to extend the retirement age to 62, and later perhaps to 67. So the Howe Yoon Chong Report has been given the due regard that it deserves. With regard to retirement planning, I cannot agree more with the Member that retirement planning is important. Indeed, we have been advocating the retirement planning concept since 1987 when we launched the public education programme on aging. The importance of pre-retirement planning is promoted among employers in the workplace, and seminars are organised with the companies and also with other agencies such as the Singapore National Employers' Federation. And quite apart from making employers aware of the need for their employees to prepare for retirement, we also help employees to prepare for retirement. This is equally or not more important, that we prepare the employee himself or herself for retirement. My Ministry works with agencies like the People's Association and other VWOs and also SAGE to provide pre-retirees with information for retirement planning. In the coming year, my Ministry will also be working with the Ministry of Labour's Back-to-Work programme to reach out to more people. With regard to support services for the aged, there are many services already set up for the aged. Let me touch specifically on an important but often neglected aspect, ie, the social and emotional needs of the elderly. Quite naturally, the family plays an important role in fulfilling the needs of the elderly, and they always benefit from being in the family setting. Our public education efforts encourage the family and society to respect and help the elderly to have a role and for the elderly to use the opportunities around them to help them lead meaningful lives. Let me now move to Prof. Low Seow Chay's topic. I thank the Member for Chua Chu Kang for his comments on the services for the elderly. There are indeed a variety of services and programmes - I have mentioned some just now - provided for the elderly by the different VWOs. The very fact that there are different VWOs and many of them are providing services should not be construed as a haphazard way of doing things and unprofessionally. There are different categories of elderly persons - the well elderly, the frail elderly and non-ambulant elderly. And the needs of these different categories of elderly people are different. So we need different bodies or organisations to provide specifically for their needs. Some prefer opportunities for informal and unstructured activities and interaction, whilst others prefer more formal and organized activities and programmes. There are three specific goals in the delivery of services and programmes. One is to help the elderly remain physically, mentally and socially active; two, to make available a continuum in the variety of care and support for the elderly; and third, to run services and programmes based on the concept of the family as social insurance in the care of the elderly. Take Senior Citizens Corners, for example. They may not look much. All you need are some tables and chairs in a corner where senior citizens would drop by, congregate and just chat, perhaps having a drink or two. It may seem unstructured or informal, but these are the things which the senior citizens need. They do not want any structured activities. They do not need anything which is structured or formal. All they need is a place to come down to every time they feel like it, to meet their friends, to chat, to exchange gossips, to talk about their children, grandchildren, or whatever. So there are indeed various needs. Some senior citizens will need such very informal activities while others will need the more formal ones which are to be held in community centres or organised by the various welfare organisations. Each voluntary welfare organisation has got its own mission and expertise. It is better for us to leave it to them to exercise this mission and expertise, because they are better placed to provide the services which they know best and which they are very committed to. So I do not think it is wise for us to organise all of them, structure them so tightly that they have no freedom to move, that they do not have the initiatives to come up with new programmes and ideas to serve the elderly. But I do agree with the Member that there is certainly room for improvement in integrating the programmes and services to ensure a more coordinated and better approach. Indeed we would also try to help VWOs where the management is rather weak, so that they can operate better and have better programmes to serve the community. With regard to coordination, one step which we have taken is the formation of three networks. I do not know whether the Member has heard about this, but we have formed three networks along regional lines to coordinate services for the elderly in the Western Sector, Central Sector and Eastern Sector. In this network system, a lead agency coordinates the activities of the other agencies to promote community and geriatric care, which means there are some professional inputs here and some expertise being brought into play in the organisation of the activities. For example, the Community Care Network led by NCSS, with the participation of MCD and MOH, addresses the issue of service fragmentation, service gaps and barriers to service utilization. Then there is geriatric care. Ministry of Health chairs a Coordinating Committee involving MCD and NCSS also, to monitor supply and demand for geriatric care, develop and review operational procedures and promote coordination among service providers. More will be done to form inter-ministry and inter-agency committees so that networks can be formed to coordinate and monitor the programmes better. So we will indeed follow up with the Member's suggestion. Let me come to Dr Toh See Kiat on concessions for the elderly. The Member suggested that MCD play a more active role in persuading organisations to provide concessions for the elderly. Let me assure the Member that we have been doing so and we will continue to do so. There are two types of concessions that the Member may wish to know. One is for the general population of elderly persons. In other words, eligibility is based purely on age. It applies to all aged persons. The other pertains to services used by selected elderly such as those for day-care centres and rehabilitative services. Concessions are given to the elderly, for example, for admissions to museums, the Zoo, Sentosa, Science Centre, Bird Park, Night Safari and concessions for public transport and entry into sports facilities managed by the Singapore Sports Council. So the array of concession facilities is indeed many, and we will try to multiply the number in time to come. I would like to assure the Member that my Ministry will pursue the question of increasing the number of concessions, not only to what we have now, but also increasing the quality of concessions. For example, previously they could only go into one class but maybe we could ask for concessions for a higher class. We will continue to do so. I think I have answered all the questions.

The Minister has not responded to my point on assistance for retrenched workers.

My apologies. Dr Vasoo and Mr Shriniwas Rai asked about it. At the moment, we do not have specific programmes or specific projects to help the retrenched workers. In our view, the best and most enduring help we can give to retrenched workers is to find them jobs and also to train them for jobs so that they can get new jobs if they want to. As you know, the NTUC and the Ministry of Labour have put in place several measures to help retrenched workers. This has been announced and Members may wish to know that my Ministry also has some help for such workers. We have in fact an interest-free loan scheme for skills training and skills upgrading for low income workers. Although this is for low income workers, this can be easily extended to retrenched workers. This loan actually complements the training award schemes which the various self-help groups now administer. Workers who wish to undergo skills training but cannot afford the cost can be assisted under these schemes. Members may wish to know that application forms are available in all the service counters of the community self-help groups and also at CDC counters, community clubs and town councils. For those who still have difficulty in paying the balance of the course fees after receiving the skills training, the community self-help groups will submit the names of these people who have problems direct to my Ministry for interest-free loans. In other words, they do not have to apply. The self-help groups will automatically send their names and we will extend the loan facilities to them. The Member also asked whether there is any assistance for family members of the aged. There are in place, in fact, various financial and non-financial assistance schemes, which my Ministry and other ministries administer, to help individuals and families who are in financial difficulty. Some of the schemes include assistance in job placement through the Ministry of Labour and NTUC, if he or she wants to obtain a job. There is also financial assistance from funds administered by my Ministry for those in genuine hardship to help them and their families tide over the difficult period. There is also assistance to meet the educational expenses and other support for school children, for example, school fees, school uniforms, supplementary fees, through MCD and also through the schools. There is also assistance in linking up the elderly to service providers and support services such as meal-help, home-help service and domiciliary nursing or medical care service. So there is already assistance in place and, if need be, we will multiply the number. The National Council of Social Service and my Ministry, Sir, are monitoring the impact of the economy on the individuals and families. NCSS has in fact provided NTUC and SNEF with information on the support services and other relevant information for distribution to human resource personnel and employees. Through this effort we hope the employers will know the kind of support that is in the community and that they can be referred to the appropriate agencies when needed. I wish at this juncture, Sir, to assure the House that every individual and every family facing financial hardship will be given help appropriate to their needs.

Clarification, Sir. Can I ask the Minister whether he cares to say whether and how the austerity measures have affected the plans of the Ministry?

As I have mentioned just now, Sir, those who need help we will somehow find help for them. As I said, we have some schemes which are administered by the Ministry itself, but we also have other schemes which we can call on. In the community, there are other organisations which also provide assistance. So if we cannot do it ourselves we will help refer that person to the appropriate body or agency which can assist.

Sir, on the area of juvenile delinquency, questions have been asked whether juvenile delinquency is a serious problem. There are differing views on this, Sir. The youth agencies will say that the problem is a growing one. The crime control agencies say that the problems have been contained. I assess that the problem of juvenile delinquency is a multi-faceted one. It requires a concerted effort to tackle the problems through the levels such as the family, the community and the schools. We have to take tougher measures and a more concerted effort at different levels to tackle the problem. The Children and Young Persons Act, particularly the section dealing with juvenile offenders, has to be revised. Sir, at the school level, there have been concerns about the disciplinary problems of students. Many schools have reported that there are juvenile delinquency problems and they have been trying to tackle the problems. There is a need to examine whether we should ensure that there is better discipline at the school level to deal with these problems. What is important is also to empower the teachers in the school to deal with the problem because we have to identify some of the early problems of students who are vulnerable to juvenile delinquency. The school can play an important role and it should be empowered to deal with this disciplinary problem at an early stage in school. I want to ask the Minister what steps are being taken to make the Children and Young Persons Act more effective. Perhaps he may want to explore the possibility of empowering those teachers, who are playing a policing role in school, to refer students with juvenile delinquency problems to the juvenile court so that the problems faced by schools can be tackled early.

Directly to court?

Yes. 6.15 pm

Sir, I share the sentiments of Dr Vasoo. The Children and Young Persons Act needs to be amended. It is long overdue and I think the Ministry is looking into it. Sir, the problem of social juvenile delinquency is actually not a criminal problem. We have to go to the root of the problem because if we treat it as a criminal problem, we will send it to the juvenile courts. I beg to differ from the opinion of criminologists and the others. I think this is what we ought to do. And I hope the Minister would give this due consideration. I could relate to him another issue. He will remember that when the Maintenance of Parents Bill was first proposed in this House, there was a proposal that District Courts should hear such cases. I and another lawyer, Mr Joshua Lim, were opposed against the whole idea and we both wrote to the newspaper and appeared before the Select Committee. I think the problem, Sir, would have been worse if it had gone to court. I do not want to flatter ourselves, but when Mr Choo Si Sen was here, we had taken a different attitude. Similarly, Sir, I would urge the Minister to take away the court, get a trained lawyer and two social workers, form a tribunal and let this problem be studied as a social problem. It is not a criminal problem, Sir. I totally agree with Dr Vasoo that we should empower the school, with the help of the Police. I am not agreeable with him as he proposes teachers. Let the principals decide. The teachers discipline them through the principal, and the principal should decide. Just like we detain criminal elements without trial, I will go further and say that these boys should be taken away, send them on holiday for two weeks at the boys' home. They will learn their lessons. Unfortunately, Sir, the boys' home I visited with Dr Vasoo sometime back is too harsh. Discipline is an important aspect of reformation. But I think too much emphasis is being paid on the penal aspect of it. We should be more reformative and provide counselling. And this is something we have to look at. It is a social problem and not a criminal problem. I would urge the Minister and the GPC to help them out, make a study of the legislation, see how best we can incorporate this into the new era, move away from the right and wrong and see how we can go forward and counsel these boys and girls. We cannot console ourselves that criminal delinquency has been checked. No. It may be tapering off there, but we have to go to the root of the problem. I think many parents, many of us, are not in a position to take parental control. And I remember meeting a very young boy of 13 who was there and the parents said they could not control him. Sir, what the parents refuse to do, the society may have to do. I urge the Minister to make a study of this problem - take it away from the court, set up a tribunal, and give it a try. If you feel it is not working, send it back to the court. But I am quite confident, given the opportunity and the way we have worked out in other agencies, that it would be worthwhile to try it out.

Sir, according to reports, the number of juvenile offenders has, in fact, stabilised over the past two years. The numbers peaked to about 2,500 in 1995, before falling to about 2,100 in 1996, and to 2,147 in 1997. This is encouraging and it demonstrates the effectiveness of our current juvenile delinquency policy. I am sure, and this is where Mr David Lim would agree, that the ban on the admission of 16-year olds to tea dances outlets must be in part responsible for this decline in offenders. I understand the Inter-Ministry Committee on Juvenile Delinquency is now working with the CDCs to reach out to school dropouts. We seem, therefore, to have the situation under control. However, Sir, as we have heard from Mr Rai and Dr Vasoo, the popular perception is, in fact, contrary to the picture presented by these figures. The rioting at the Singapore Boys' Home on 17th December 1997 has raised some concerns. Are the programmes in place at these homes truly able to help the boys turn over a new leaf? Are the boys at these homes receiving adequate counselling? Is there a lack of resources at these homes? These concerns are not only being voiced in relation to the boys at these homes but also in relation to youth now living outside such institutions and, in particular, the school dropouts. If the boys from the homes are not helped, they may negatively influence others once they are released back into society. This failure to help will ultimately feed a never-ending cycle of juvenile delinquency problems in Singapore. Anecdotal evidence seems also to suggest that more youths are bolder these days. I was informed that during the recent festive seasons, there were several minor clashes between youth and Police. For example, near the Malay Village, several knives were found stuck to trees and a Police officer was slashed by a youth after he resisted arrest. Sir, in this context, could the Minister enlighten the House on what preventive measures have been taken currently to help our youths to deal with their time wisely? Given what has happened at the Boys' Home, could the Minister also give us an update on plans by MCD to ensure that problems such as rioting do not recur?

Sir, the topic I would like to talk about is Boys' Home. Sir, the Boys' Home is a place for the juvenile offenders, a place for receiving punishment for their wrongdoing, yet at the same time it is a place for them to continue with their education and rehabilitation. As a Member of the GPC for MCD, I have had the opportunity to visit the Boys' Home in Clementi. I discovered that some of the residents there are as young as 13 years old. From their look, they do not seem "evil" as those portrayed in the western films showing juvenile offences. I feel that with proper guidance, counselling and continuing to attend school upon completion of their short stay in the Home, normally about two years, most of them could turn over a new leaf, just as any youngster now in secondary school. Sir, from what I have observed, the Home is more than 100 years old. There is a lack of facilities and it is overcrowded. On the one hand, we could consider the rundown condition of the premises as one form of punishment for the residents. On the other hand, the poor training facilities could affect the outcomes of the rehabilitation programme. Worse still, there are neither proper school premises nor programmes for the normal school curriculum, except the offering of BEST and WISE classes. In my view, it is not satisfactory. We should consider providing facilities which are equivalent to a school with proper curriculum for the young residents in the Boys' Home who are still schooling. As one of the objectives of the Home is for the purpose of rehabilitation, the staff or counsellors' contact with residents is very important because they can, through their contact and communication with the residents, impart or extend their values to the residents and help convert them. This is part and parcel of the counselling and rehabilitation programme. From what I know, the supervisor to resident ratio of the Home currently is 1:40 in the day time, and 1:80 at night. Sir, with this ratio, I do not think the Home could discharge its task of counselling or conversion well. The staff to resident ratio must be strengthened to enhance the quality of counselling in converting the residents and helping them to return and contribute to society just like any ordinary young person. Sir, I really hope that the Government would look into the running of the Boys' Home seriously with the injection of funds and manpower to provide a proper programme to help the young and perhaps innocent residents to return to society and start a new life. Sir, I have got another cut. May I continue?

Yes.

Sir, the next topic I would like to talk about is child care service. With more married women joining the workforce, placing children in the child care centres has become a norm in a modern industrialised society. Despite many child care centres being built in the young constituencies like mine, there is always a shortage of full-time child care places in meeting the needs of the residents. Sir, I was told that all these child care centres are not only running child care services, but also conducting other children's enrichment programme because these enrichment programmes are more lucrative than running child care services. Certain centres could have put the number of places for child care to a bare minimum so as to meet the contractual requirements of MCD. There is nothing wrong for the child care centre to make more money. However, in my view, they should only consider making more money by running enrichment programmes after the local child care needs are fulfilled. Some of the child care centres have 100 children on the waiting list, and yet they refuse to take in the children because of the enrichment programmes. I believe this is going against the original intention of MCD in setting up child care centres. I would like to urge MCD to look into this and see in what way child care centres would place child care services as their priority and help to provide sufficient child care places in meeting the needs of the working mothers.

Sir, I would like to propose this cut on child care with specific emphasis on education. It may appear odd that I am talking about education. But this is not surprising, considering that education for pre-primary is under MCD, and not under the Ministry of Education. I hope to be able to persuade the Minister to have a national child care and pre-primary system, that child care and pre-primary services should not be simply left to market forces. The Government should go beyond its existing role of being a facilitator of such services as this is an area that has important economic and social implications. The provision of child care services has been seen as a vital part of the national effort to encourage higher labour participation rate amongst women. There is always the concern that our children are being brought up by foreign maids. The foreign maid levy reflects this concern as there are dangers caused by over-reliance on foreigners who may bring up Singapore children in the light of their own cultures. There have also been frequently expressed concerns on the importance and the need to transmit the right values to our young, in order to maintain and strengthen the social fabric of Singapore. Although I sympathise with the Government's anxiety to avoid being suck into what it perceives as a potential welfare trap, I nevertheless feel that an arm's length approach to children has created its own set of problems. I would like to clarify these: (1) It is difficult to find a good child care. There is a quote from the NUS Society publication recently. It said "finding a good child care is like buying 4-D". (2) The long waiting list is a common experience amongst child care providers. (3) Uneven quality of service amongst various child care. This is sometimes because of the over-reliance on self-help and other social groups who operate child care centres. Some child care centres have been known to hire foreigners with degrees from Sri Lanka and China who are cheaper but do not understand Singapore's culture. But I am particularly very disturbed by the worrying trends towards racial segmentation. Muslim parents tend to enrol their children in mosque-run kindergartens and day care centres. Higher income families tend to enrol their children in child care centres that are run by Caucasians whose curriculum and teachers are vastly different from our local culture. I am extremely concerned as the issue of segregation of children at such a young age cannot possibly be conducive to the building of a more cohesive society. In fact, I would caution that segregation at this level can bring about strong and divisive forces in the future. 6.30 pm I, therefore, urge the Minister to consider the introduction of a national child care system as it is timely and appropriate. The services can be provided by private companies but the coordination and regulation at various levels can be done by the Government. Child care services should be seen as part of the essential education of a child and be treated in the same way as other forms of formal education. Policy on child care should take into account both the core and education components. The Government should be more directly involved in setting up these centres. The formulation and implementation of child care policies should be handled by both the Ministry of Community Development and Ministry of Education. Attempts should be made to resolve the space constraint problem. At the moment, there is clearly a strong competition for void deck spaces by different social groups. Space planning for child care should be better coordinated. While diversity is not necessarily bad nor avoidable, attempts should be made to ensure that all centres not only provide a common minimum standard of service but also a core curriculum that imparts our national values to our children regardless of race, language, religion or income groups. A coordinated national child care system will also be better positioned to address some of the concerns I raised earlier, that is, closer integration of different races, increased access to all families, especially the lower income families. The latter is one effective way of giving Singaporeans as equal as possible an opportunity to start their lives with. We must ensure that we maintain minimum standards to get around the problem of uneven quality of services. There should be, as a first step, closer coordination amongst various institutions that provide child care education, including the National Institute of Education, NTUC and the PAP Community Foundation and all other agencies that do it on an ad-hoc basis. Like teachers in a formal education system, there should be a more rigorous system to monitor the professionalism of child care givers. Efforts must be made to understand the poor response to training facilities offered by child care givers. While the recruitment of new teachers is a challenge confronting all levels of education, it seems to be particularly severe at the child care education. Sir, I would conclude by saying that as the Republic moves towards the next lap in its development, it should bring its education system to a level befitting its status. A more comprehensive education system starting with the early pre-school years is one indication of such a progress.

Sir, in last year's debate on the President's Address, Mr David Lim, Member for Aljunied GRC, made the point that investing in the very young will enable us to further push the limit of our human resources. This point seems not to have been taken, regrettably, seriously enough for the budget to be increased in relation to child care generally in this year's budget. The estimates for FY98 provide for $3.42 million out of $42.8 million development expenditure. For capital grants, they amount to less than $1 million. We have to recognise that this is a very small amount of the total development expenditure budget. Surely child care deserves more than that. Children must be at the heart of any family policy. The overriding interest should be the welfare of our children. We must be more understanding of children's dependency needs for stable and committed parenting or child care for reasonable material provision, for educational and other opportunities to enable their true potential to emerge. In other words, child care is not just about building child care centres or licensing private operators to run child care centres. We have to acknowledge that there is an acute shortage of facilities and trained-minders for the very young, as pointed out by the Nominated MP, Mr Zulkifli. A more positive approach has to be taken. A child policy requires coordination among several agencies and Ministries. First, may I ask what coordination now exists between HDB and MCD in terms of the placement of child care centres, particularly in new estates. Timing is also an important element. I am sure that many Members in the House would have met residents who requested letters of support in an attempt to get their children into the very few child care centres, particularly in new estates with a waiting list of more than 200 sometimes. Second, coordination between MCD and other Ministries, such as Manpower, to provide for skills training for child-minders and pre-primary teachers. These skills upgrading or training courses should also attract the various tax rebates and exemptions enjoyed by other workers. Third, coordination between MCD and grassroots organisations to improve feedback on the need for such facilities in different areas of Singapore. Without such coordination and feedback, MCD's response appears to be sluggish and not proactive. Sir, the need for a more positive approach to child care policy is great. I hope the Minister can respond wholeheartedly to increasing not just the building of child care centres but also the training of child care minders generally. Child care at an early age will foster good habits and develop minds. We can and should do more for our children.

Sir, as a nation, we have to wean ourselves from an over-dependence on foreign labour, especially domestic labour. We also want our women to contribute to the economic growth of our country by staying in the workforce. Who will then look after our children? Who will teach and nurture them? I am one with Mr Zulkifli in asking if we have to pay somebody to teach them and nurture them, would it not be better to rely on well-trained professionals who have our own values and understand our own cultural sensitivities. There are some things we can learn from the developed countries in this area where they have large numbers of women in the workforce and yet only the very very rich have live-in domestic help. One of the ways they do this is to have an extensive system of child care centres, nurseries and creches. Many enlightened employers even run these centres at the workplace. The advantage of such arrangements is that the mother brings the child to the same place she works, leaves the child with professional child carers and goes to her own work. At lunch time, she can visit her child, play with her child, have personal quality time to interact and bond with the child. When the child is ill, the mother can work with peace of mind because she can pop in now and then to check on the child and the company benefits too from this arrangement because she does not have to apply for urgent leave. At the end of the day, she does not have to rush off early from work to battle the traffic jams so that she can pick up her child in time. Instead, she can just pop in to the centre and make arrangements with the staff there before going back to work. Alternatively, she can pick up her child and bring the child back to her work desk. She can then quickly finish her work without being worried sick to death that her child will be traumatised by the delay or that the child care centre will levy a huge penalty on her for not picking up the child punctually. Sir, this is a simple idea and highly practical. Why do we not have more of such arrangements? Perhaps we should give employers tax incentives or grants to build and operate such centres. Or as Prof. Chin has said, we could perhaps release more funds to upgrade the carers' skills and give them pride of place so that people actually would want to work in such places and it would no longer be a lottery to find a good child care centre. More importantly, I think the Government should set the example by setting up centres like these in all the Government departments. If the Government employees do not form a sufficient catchment for the service, they could open up the centres to workers working in the immediate vicinity or in the same building. And who says they should limit this service to mothers? I know there are some fathers who would need this type of service too. I do hope the Minister would consider this suggestion useful.

Sir, I want to move away from child care to the problem of child abuse. On 14th October 1997, an unwed father was sentenced to 10 years for causing the death of his three-month old son. In today's Straits Times, a mother, sentenced for child abuse, had her sentence doubled by the courts. She was described as a cruel animal who should not be a mother. Winnie Ho's tragic case, perhaps more than any other case recently, has galvanised public awareness of child abuse in Singapore. There is enough ground support for the Government to ensure wider protection of innocent children and to take abusive parents to task. While child abuse cases provide dramatic and visual proof of the need to intervene, punish violent behaviour in the family setting, they also raise many questions about the causes of such disturbingly violent behaviour. Some recent reports seem to suggest that child abuse is precipitated by stress. A report in the Sunday Times of 15th March 1998, for example, quoted a one Mr Chong Meng Fat who had been sentenced for inflicting harm to his 8-year old daughter as saying that his job as a security guard was too stressful. Many families no doubt are emotional and economically ill-equipped to care for their children. Caring for a child on low income combined with the inherent stress of caring for highly dependent young child can be overwhelming. Many harried parents feel overwhelmed by the relentless onslaught of responsibilities with their jobs, children and themselves. But child abuse is not an inevitable outcome in stressful environment. Sir, we need to look at both ends of the child abuse problem. I strongly support any Government move to ensure that child abuses are appropriately punished. But at the same time, we also need to look into ways of preventing child abuse. The effects of child abuse are long lasting. Child abuse leaves physical and emotional scars that are likely to be carried into adulthood. Moreover, victims of child abuse are more likely as adults to be violent towards their children. We jail the abusers today but they will eventually be released and continue to be parents. How do we ensure that abuse does not recur? Good parenting is not an attribute that we can turn on and off automatically. As parents, we too need support and guidance. Can we take some proactive steps to help parents become better parents? Can we not mobilise resources to help the community agencies put in place counselling and care programmes for parents? Can we not identify new parents at risk and provide them with support and information about parenting and community resources? Sir, could the Minister inform the House on any new provisions to protect our children and, in particular, would he tell us whether steps are being taken to help parents develop healthy and supportive family environment? What are we doing to help abusers move away from rage, neglect and violence in their parent-child relationship?

We have got one to two minutes more. But we have had a very long day. Do I have your assent that we stop here for the day? Hon. Members indicated assent. Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1998/1999, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

So be it.

Resolved, "That Parliament do now adjourn." - [Mr Abdullah Tarmugi]. Adjourned accordingly at Sixteen Minutes to Seven o'clock pm.